Best starts in India-focused game

[Sphynxx]

I never ventured outside of Europe, and for the next playthrough I did a little forum research and it seems the next destination for me should be India. But as someone new to the region, I’m a bit at a loss as to which nation to play.

Criteria for an “interesting playthrough” for me are as follows:
1) I enjoy dynamically adjusting all kinds of modifiers there are: estates, various church aspects, parliament issues, etc - according to my present needs. Thus, the more choices are offered, the better
2) I really like untangling alliance webs and AE juggling (as in HRE or Italy) and figuring out what the next conquest target should be

With such diversity of nations to choose from, I’m a bit at a loss:
1) Is it more interesting to play as Muslim or Hindu? What is the better endgame form able nation, Mughals, Hindustan or Bharat?

2) Is it more interesting to play as an insider (nation from the Indian subcontinent) or an outsider (e.g. Timurids trying to form Mughals)

3) Is it possible to draw parallels with European nations, e.g. (and I’m making things up) Vijayanagar is like France (the biggest fish at the start) and Nepal / Mewar are Brandenburg (small but with strong national ideas geared towards military) - such parallels, while imperfect, could be very helpful

thanks to everyone in advance, and happy new year!

 

[otaats]

The fun thing with India is that there are several powers on equal footing:

- Leaders: Vijayanagar, Bahmanis, Bengal, Jaunpur. Vijay starts off quite strongly. May be stronger than Bahmanis at the start, but the Bahmanis are more likely to find a stronger ally early on. Jaunpur is quite strong and has unlimited expansion routes. Bengal is maybe the weakest of the four, but it's located in one of the best nodes in the world. You shouldn't have issues with expanding, but you should look out for unfavorable enemy alliances - if Jaunpur allies someone like Bahmanis, you're somewhat in trouble. But you can always expand into Indochina for a dev boom.
- Up-and-comers: Mewar, Orissa, Gujarat, Malwa, Delhi/Sirhind - Weaker than the leaders, but most of these have some great national ideas, and most of them are more potent than any of the Indian majors. Mewar and Orissa are my favourites in all of India - they both have a fun mission tree and very solid ideas. Sirhind has an awesome starting ruler. Gujarat and Malwa i haven't played yet.
- Fun to play weaklings: Garhwal (Nepal), Mysore, Madurai, Kandy, Garha..

Playing muslim or hindu doesn't make too much difference other than economy wise. Muslim tags have no issue keeping their religious unity high due to their unique Estate interaction.

 

[mechanical_Critter]

1) Is it more interesting to play as Muslim or Hindu? What is the better endgame form able nation, Mughals, Hindustan or Bharat?

Both are very interesting. It's quite possibly a tossup, both having extremely strong potential; if you stay inside of india hindu is probably better, if you expand further then probably muslim has an edge.

Mughals is hands down the strongest endgame tag of the region, probably of the world too. Hindustan is not worth forming (barely better than Deccan which isn't an endgame tag), I don't think Bharat is either. Bear in mind you forfeit your chance to form a European tag to move your capital to Europe (Scotland and Greece comes to mind). So despite Bharat's good ideas, I don't think it's worth forming ever.

2) Is it more interesting to play as an insider (nation from the Indian subcontinent) or an outsider (e.g. Timurids trying to form Mughals)

imo insider. If you start as an outsider muslim, your gameplay will probably be always along the lines of forming Mughals, and then conquering india. So, yeah, doing that one run is fun (or playing Timurids if you want to taste massive OPness) but then with an insider you'd get the variety you're looking for.

3) Is it possible to draw parallels with European nations, e.g. (and I’m making things up) Vijayanagar is like France (the biggest fish at the start) and Nepal / Mewar are Brandenburg (small but with strong national ideas geared towards military) - such parallels, while imperfect, could be very helpful

I wouldn't dare to risk making parallels, but the geography is as follow: in the north, you have the Ganges plains with extremely, extremely rich lands from Lahore (outside of TC region) to Bengal delta. If you start anywhere near that place, your game is bound to snowball fast because you will be extremely rich and you will be contested. The big reformable is Delhi, whose requirements are so lax that you can always expect the owner of Delhi will in fact be Delhi. There are very big nations in there (Delhi or its successor, Jaunpur, Bengal) In the south, the situation is opposite, so to say: the lands are still very good but not as good; and it's a bit more isolated, so it's slightly slower. Bahmani and Vijayanagari are the top dogs of that part. I didn't play much in the west, it's still decent lands with multiple intermediate nations.

 

[fireduck]

Strongly agree with the above two posts.

1. Both are good options, I will say Hindu might be more interesting as you have other opportunities to play Muslim countries outside of India but there aren't too many Hindu countries outside of India, certainly none as interesting as Vijayanagar or Mewar. Mughals have the most flavor of the three endgame tags, Hindustan/Bharat won't add much flavor, you'll get most of the flavor from your starting country.

2. Like mentioned before, the only real outside game you can play is to form Mughals, there are a lot more options if you start from inside.

3. I think Vijayanagar being France and Mewar/Nepal being Brandenburg are good analogies, I don't think the other European countries really line up with the Indian countries though, maybe Mughals are like the Ottomans of India, Gujarat is the Netherlands, and Delhi or Madurai is Byzantium? Idk.

I'd say Vijayanagar is the best nation if you are a beginner and Mewar -> Rajputana is the most fun if you have some experience with the game. There are a lot of good options in the region though as mentioned before.

 

[KaiserJohan]

Sirhind starts in a very interesting position, being able to annex Delhi early on and then reform it, thus inheriting it's cores and claims

 

[Josar]

Mewar is the Brandenburg of India. Not only can you unify India as Bharat, but you can form the intermediate nation of Rajaputan once you have most of north Western India. The mission tree is huge, and national ideas are solid. It is Hindu, which I recommend when playing in India, as you can play Sunni in a bunch of places. Sure you can play Vijayangenar, but that nation is already so ahead, it is not very interesting. Mewar also has two unique achievements.

 

[otaats]

Yep, i agree with above posts.

Mewar was my first Dharma playthrough and it was a lot of fun. Very strong ideas, though you start outnumbered and surrounded by Muslim rivals of similar development. Early game should be your biggest challenge as Mewar, and it's an intermediate one at worst. Be aware that playing in Rajasthan makes your economy slighly weaker than in other parts of India. There are also many weak desert provinces in the hinterlands. But towards Gujarat there are numerous provinces with good potential. This is where Mewar lies, so you shouldn't have a lot of trouble building up your economy in a reasonable timeframe.

I'd also highlight Orissa - pretty damn fine ideas, a good start, but with many potential red lights relatively early into the game. Bengal and Bahmanis will hate you most of the time, and sometimes even Vija will not give alliance a chance. You have a solid coastal base to expand from, but your options to the west are somewhat limited in the start - you have a vassal swarm in the jungles, which delays your conquest to the west. Even so, coring many of these tiny jungle tags is expensive - if i recall, a number of them have an increased coring cost, so you risk wasting your AP on bad provinces, if you don't time your expansions right. Your immediate target should be to beat Bengal badly ASAP. I am talking first 10-15 years into the game. Luckily, you will have the resources to field a respectable army, and with your vassal swarm, you can get an edge over the majors in some instances.

Reforming Delhi as Sirhind is quite fun. Starting and surviving as Delhi is even more fun (and getting the subsequent achievement of course).

1 tip - Want to become economy #1 early? Conquer Doab and Lahore areas as soon as possible.

Maybe you should start in India by picking Vija/Bahmanis, just to get a feeling as to what happens with India 50-100 years into the game.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Both are very interesting. It's quite possibly a tossup, both having extremely strong potential; if you stay inside of india hindu is probably better, if you expand further then probably muslim has an edge.

I disagree here, for Indians Hindu is vastly superior because good lord are the Vaishyas broken.

Hindustan is not worth forming (barely better than Deccan which isn't an endgame tag)

Worse then Deccan, because I LOL at tags of Hindustan's caliber without any MP savings.

Sirhind starts in a very interesting position, being able to annex Delhi early on and then reform it, thus inheriting it's cores and claims

And then get wrecked by Delhi's Lodi events

I much prefer staying as Sirhind, converting to Sikh and forming Punjab. Then I can laugh at France's pitiful morale.

Plus Jaunpur does this whole "wear Delhi's flayed skin" thing much better. (shameless plug for the guide in my sig)

 

[Mirhi]

there aren't too many Hindu countries outside of India, certainly none as interesting as Vijayanagar or Mewar

I'd go the opposite way and say that the non-South Asian hindu countries can be just as interesting playthroughs specifically because they're hindus and hinduism isn't in the majority anywhere else. They're sadly not in very fleshed out regions though.

 

[Henrious]

My first completed game was bhamanis. They are strong and fun. All I can say really.

 

[mechanical_Critter]

I disagree here, for Indians Hindu is vastly superior because good lord are the Vaishyas broken.

the appeal of muslim is max TOH, an excellent government, lots of estates, better allies, and better prospect outside of india. Granted, lots of it is more meaningful once you've stepped outside of india. That's why I say inside india hindu has an edge. But if you're hindu and you have some muslim lands, it's not great, while hindu lands are as good, sometimes better, as true faith if you're muslim.

 

[fireduck]

I'd go the opposite way and say that the non-South Asian hindu countries can be just as interesting playthroughs specifically because they're hindus and hinduism isn't in the majority anywhere else. They're sadly not in very fleshed out regions though.

Fair enough, hopefully we get a Southeast Asia update soon to make these countries more interesting

 

[Cathal341]

My current play through is as Bahmanis. Once I got my start going it was fine. I had a pretty grueling war vs Vijay to start with but after that it was mostly just me curb stomping my way through Central and Southern India until I could evict Delhi and Jaunpur from the map (Jaunpur were actually nice enough to die to coalitions for me) also Shia is one of my favourite religions.

That said I've also had amazing games as Vijay --> Bhrat, Sirihand --> Sikh Punjab and both Timurids and Afghanistan --> Mughals.

Sikh Punjab was by far my favorite tbh.

Basically what I'm getting at is anything in India is gonna be an interesting game so it doesn't really matter who you pick since it's such a really interested and diverse region, especially with Dharma.

 

[enKage]

Bahmanis is the only Shia and this religion is rarely player. It also has mision tree that develops capital to astronomical size. It was my 2nd world conquest.

You mention Bharat and Hindustani, but forgot Rajputana. IMO the best ideas in subcontinent. Go with Mewar into Rajputana. My 3rd WC

Sindh Has geat land to develop institutions and can go coptic easily.

You can also choose any tribal and turn into horde. There is a lot of flat land northern India and you will be swimmimng in mana with so huge developnent around.

 

[schondetta]

Sirhind to Deli to Punjab is interesting. Pick up sihk along the way and religious CB all neighbours always.

 

[jamal bakr]

Mewar should be fun, but its mission tree feels so railroaded and choked full of bonuses it feels like a meme. I like gorka, you have a quick minigame of forming nepal, and then maybe of a decade of scheming to break into bengali delta. Missions are terrible for it, as for whatever reason they are designed for conquest of india from east to west, but that kind of frees you up to be more opportunistic. Don't kid yourself as being the "india prussia", the entire subcontinent has powerful ideas and your advantage is marginal at best, and arguably worse than mewar's.

Sikhism is bad, you aren't able to get tolerance particularly high and your stuck with like 2-3 missionaries tops. And you lose a lot of your estate interactions when you convert.

 

[Sphynxx]

Thanks everyone for great replies! It certainly seems that various nations mentioned have special places in the posters’ respective h Just started “Timurids -> Mughals” to get familiar with geography and structure of the region, and the next one will probably be “Mewar -> Rajputana”

 

[otaats]

Thanks everyone for great replies! It certainly seems that various nations mentioned have special places in the posters’ respective h Just started “Timurids -> Mughals” to get familiar with geography and structure of the region, and the next one will probably be “Mewar -> Rajputana”

A fine choice Mughals have a huge mission tree, they can be quite fun

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Thanks everyone for great replies! It certainly seems that various nations mentioned have special places in the posters’ respective h Just started “Timurids -> Mughals” to get familiar with geography and structure of the region, and the next one will probably be “Mewar -> Rajputana”

Timurids to Mughals is a tag everyone should play once. Just for the crazy power level. They are a tag where you can pretty much accidentally wander into a WC even with an Asian capital.

I liked Orissa to Barat. You aren’t a major power, but you are big enough to get involved in things from the start.

The best thing about India in general is that it can develop significantly differently on a regular basis which can result in different paths even for the same tag.

 

[Karst]

Lots of fun nations have already been mentioned, but if you're not averse to playing a difficult minor without missions, you might give one of the Gujarati Princedoms a try.
Why? Well, all other nations have at most -0.5 interest per annum in their national ideas, while they get -1.0. Combine that with being located in Gujarat, India's local endnode, and you can play an insane economy run.
Gujarat itself has its own missions and ideas, which are some of the most extremely trade-focused of any nation, but they are lacking that hilarious interest reduction.
I'd also say Orissa is notable for how incredibly militarily strong their start is, probably second only to the Bah/Vij duo, due to having four vassals all of which have capital forts in defensive terrain, -10% Shock Damage Received tradition, and a godlike ruler with 6 military skill who is an Inspiring Leader and a five shock general. Their first national idea is also infantry combat ability so they can absolutely dominate militarily early, even though Mewar/Rajputana will have even better quality later on.