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why did you choose meritocracy when you can have harmonious .
“Best” Options for Bon Pagan Reformation in 867?
- Thread starter eastcoastceojam
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Correct, I won't be able to declare those myself anymore. But given time, I am sure my vassal Religious Head will make use of these powers.
In the meantime, I wanted to give myself the chance to have some of my Ancestors get sainted, which is difficult to achieve while you are Temporal.
I hope the same for my Hierocratic Romuva game, that the First Vielkas will make use of the CB soon.
How likely is the chance to have a venerated ancestor given to your dynasty though? I read somewhere the chance is generally only around 5% or so.
Yes, the chances for someone to become a Pagan Saint are low, but the required traits are not a restrictive as it is for Catholic Saints. It is also modified by the doctrine and nature you choose, and is heavily dependent on the Prestige of the recently deceased. So a deceased Emperor should have a pretty good shot of getting sainted.
The Wiki has been updated recently with lots of good stats on the process:
https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Sainthood#Ancestor_Veneration
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Same restrictions as all reformed pagans applies to bon. In particular the whole "we must wait until Catholics or Islam invents GHW before copying them". Something that always bugged me.
With most pagans its easy to trigger crusades or jihads by taking a single important county and granting independence once the GHW era starts.
Bon (and to an extent sumo) not so much. No good targets to take to cheese the system. Hence my never having used a GHW as either religion pre-HF. Its just not worth the hassle.
You'd think if you chose temporal there would be a decision to fire the era if certain requirements were met. Otherwise some pagans are unlikely to use them until far to late in the game for them to be fun.
I must admit I had no idea. That may explain why my Hierocratic Romuva game still has no trace of GHW being possible, I suppose. Is it completely impossible to GHW until the AI decides it is the Crusade era?
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Usually. I've had GHWs unlocked before Catholics and Sunnis, but it's a random number.
Guge in 876 is probably one of the easiest pagan reformations in the game. All the holy sites you need are right next door and there's a lot of potential conquest/raiding targets all around you. Plus you're already a reformed government with tons of upgraded holdings and technology.
As you've noted, temporal is the strongest option for leadership. No matter what your other choices are, your rulers will always have more piety and diplomacy than randomly generated priests will have, and your rulers will never run the risk of getting bad reputations if you pick the right focuses to make sure you don't have both terrible diplomacy and intrigue. You get a fancy staff that makes up for the autonomous bonuses, can still secure the +5% holy site bonus with your government, and every landed member of your dynasty including the religious head themselves gets +2 prestige and +1 piety. The only time you don't want to use temporal is if you're taking ancestor worship, assuming you want the strongest option.
Proselytizing or dogmatic nature are necessary if you want to spread your religion. The former is better for this purpose, since in the later case the AI will only proselytize to pagan religions. Unyielding does give a lot of combat bonuses and AI rulers will use the proselytizing action against all other religions IF they're zealous, but this bonus is spotty since it's only active in same religion provinces and it's hard to spread your religion as an unyielding religion.
As you've noted, temporal is the strongest option for leadership. No matter what your other choices are, your rulers will always have more piety and diplomacy than randomly generated priests will have, and your rulers will never run the risk of getting bad reputations if you pick the right focuses to make sure you don't have both terrible diplomacy and intrigue. You get a fancy staff that makes up for the autonomous bonuses, can still secure the +5% holy site bonus with your government, and every landed member of your dynasty including the religious head themselves gets +2 prestige and +1 piety. The only time you don't want to use temporal is if you're taking ancestor worship, assuming you want the strongest option.
Proselytizing or dogmatic nature are necessary if you want to spread your religion. The former is better for this purpose, since in the later case the AI will only proselytize to pagan religions. Unyielding does give a lot of combat bonuses and AI rulers will use the proselytizing action against all other religions IF they're zealous, but this bonus is spotty since it's only active in same religion provinces and it's hard to spread your religion as an unyielding religion.
I'd say Ancestor Veneration is much, much better than Meritocracy. Eldership lets you pass all titles to any dynasty member of your choice and is limited to 6 voters so buying the votes/currying up is very easy. IMO it is the best succession law in the game as it gives you ton of control and the titles can't pass from your realm.
Totally agree. Though with one caveat. If you dont mind playing the marrige game to get the bloodlines into your dynasty picking temporal allows you to put more of these bloodlines into the world in the long run.
An ai religous head will only venerate a potential ancestor half the time. Players will presumably do it everytime as there is no downside to saying no. Sure you can't put the bloodline on yourself directly but realistically you could only do this twice anyway before the odds of the event firing become silly low. For min max you can make powerful vassals from prestigious dynasties and tutor their heirs to have traits which make the event more likely to fire.
But doesn't Meritocracy make you the sole appointer of your heir anyway? That's how I understood it anyway.
From a roleplaying perspective, Eldership succession is my favourite succession law too, don't get me wrong.
Meritocracy only allows direct children and siblings to be chosen. Eldership lets you choose from any dynast.
Plus meritocracy has other issues.
In addition to what N1ghteyes said above, Mericracy also has very annoying requirement of only working if you have chosen one of few specific Succession Laws, mainly Primo or Ultra, both of which are not available to many nations early on.
How do vassals feature into the Ancestor Veneration bloodline plan?
Yes, the Meritocracy doctrine doesn't really add anything until you switch to Primo/Ultimo, regardless of whether you pick it by itself, or as part of the combo Harmonious doctrine.
But don't forget that by playing in the East in 867, you start with legalism tech of 3, and can switch to Primo succession fairly quickly if you want. But like you, I still think that Eldership is better, since your realm is fairly homogenous on culture and religion, and some neighboring rulers even share your dynasty, so you can elect them your heir straightaway.
So if you would advice against taking Harmonious as a doctrine then, and take Ancester Veneration instead, if I understand correctly?
And does Ancestor Veneration doctrine still have that bug that makes it nearly impossible to declare saints under Temporal leadership?
It still has that 'bug'. (I don't think it is really a bug, but rather intended feature to prevent player from naming every single character Ancestors.)
My preferable reformation is Cosmopolitan/Ancestors/Astronomy/Hierocratic.
Cosmopolitan is mainly for fun, because I want to marry bloodlines around the world. I'd say Warmongering is the strongest nature (it also has very nice requirements for eldership), but it is bit boring.
Astronomy pairs well with Ancestors (everyone in your realm gets increased ancestor bonus since they have a horoscopical sign) + Hermetic Society is fine addition for the years when you can't create new legend. Stability, Monasticism and some of the unique reforms are also fine choices.
Hierocratic is probably better than Autocephalous. The rest aren't options because I want to create bloodlines.