“Best” Options for Bon Pagan Reformation in 867?

[eastcoastceojam]

Havent seen many posts about reforming the Bon religion. I have an Ironman 867 Guge game on the verge of reforming the religion. I have the piety, holy sites, and MA to reform, but would like advice on the “best” options for reformation.

My first choice was Unyielding, Harmonious (Meritocracy + Equality), Stability, and Hierocratic. I could also see Monasticism as an immersive option, though I wish Paradox would give Bon a monastic society if this option is selected (seems unlikely though). I’m also on the fence for Astrology or maybe a Peaceful nature, since the Bon culture allows for raiding.

I presume I keep my pagan attrition bonuses no matter what I select. I do love seeing enemy Buddhist armies melt away before they siege down a single one my holdings.

What does the Haruspicy doctrine do again? I have read the wiki, but don’t understand how specifically you are aided in battle.

Let me know what you think!

 

[Dragatus]

Your first choice looks good. Blobbing would be easier with Temporal, but Hierocratic gives more options for internal realm management so it's fine. And Unyielding is the most powerful nature, though conversion may be a bit slow as AI characters won't convert provinces unless they have high zeal (Zealous trait should do the trick).

Monastic is mostly a flavor thing. Astrology is fine, but depends on what you're aiming for. If you like being a warrior king you're better of sticking with the warrior lodge in which case you don't have much use for Astrology. Joining the Hermetic Society is the biggest attraction of that doctrine.

Haruspicy is basically a random morale bonus or penalty that gets applied at the start of a war. I haven't actually played with it yet, so I can't go in more detail.

Peaceful nature is okay if you are happy with the size of your empire and have no wish to expand further. If you take it consider also choosing Autonomous leadership. The bonuses you get by choosing a branch are pretty good. You would not need Stability then since your vassals are inherently less reblious and the short reign penalty will do less harm.

I'm pretty sure you do not in fact keep the defensive attrition bonus. As far as I know that only applies to unreformed pagans.

So in conclusion the two suggested setups are:
- great conqueror: Unyielding, Harmonious, Stability/Haruspicy, Temporal/Hierocratic
- wise emperor: Peaceful, Harmonious, Astrology, Autonomous

 

[Eldath]

I would definitely run with the Unyielding/Proselytizing/Dogmatic nature.
Avoid Haruspicy, it's very weak, Astrology is way overrated too, even with the Hermetic society (you can just write books anyway and now that you're only limited to 4, I simply don't see the appeal)
Monasticism is pretty nice, I like to pick it in continental regions. A monastic order would definitely be a good idea, but I think that reformed Bön can join the Hellenic monastic society (of course that should pop up first which is not something the AI does very often)
Harmonious is also a nice doctrine, if that's the way you like to play.
Temporal leadership is also great because you get a nice staff, but HIerocratic works just fine too.

Alternatively you can pick Harmonius + daring, which would make your vassals expand your empire on their own, but if you don't like to handle their territorial expansions, just stay with monastic.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

^ thanks for the above comments!

Based on another thread, I just realized that Temporal may be an even better fit for Bon than most. Since you can hold temples, you can also give your religion the +5% MA boost by personally owning a holy site.

I’m liking your “Great Conqueror” recommendation more and more now.

Now I need to figure out how to revoke the temple title in my capital without incurring tyranny. Maybe by using the Intrigue “spy on” action on my vassal cleric?

 

[Arsonik]

Sorry to derail, but I saw an AI Bon reformation in a game last weekend. I don't know if this is common or not, I practically never leave 769 and wanted to do a short cheesy campaign as Rurik while I only had a few hours. It was really cool, and I immediately thought of doing my own Bon campaign. I had plans to before Holy Fury but seemed to have forgotten all about it until that moment.

I'd love to hear how it goes for you, whether you update this post or make a new one. Good luck.

 

[WJS]

Yes, I'd love to hear how it turns out!

 

[Wakizashi]

I just stumbled on this thread while looking for more information on the Bön religion. It looks quite fascinating judging by what I can read here, and I might just do a Bön playthrough myself.

The Harmonious unique doctrine seems particularly appealing, and it seems to me the Bön have the best of Jainism, but without its
radical pacifism

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Here is a quick update on where I am with my Bon Reformation experiment. I chose Unyielding, Meritocracy + Stability, and Temporal. Haven't had much luck converting any counties from Old Bon yet, but my MA is high, so hopefully it is only a matter of time. I decided against Harmonious because I didn't want my daughters getting claims on my titles, but looks like I will also need to change my succession laws to Agnatic to make that happen. The cousin marriage might get in the way of marrying my way into the U-Tsang kingdom, so another reason to choose plain Meritocracy instead,

The nice thing about Guge 867 is that you start with a Silk Road trading post in your personal domain at Purang, which also contains the temple of Kailash, which is a Bon Holy site. I moved my capital to that province before I even un-paused.

Guge also it sits really close to 3 other light defended Silk Road trade posts in Kathmandu, Udabhanda, and Khotan (which is also another Bon Holy Site). Now I just taking the Theology focus, and letting my vassals conquer in my name. The trade posts are all maxed for current tech levels, and I can focus on building up my capital duchy holdings.

PS - I got personal ownership of the Temple of Kailash my using Intrigue focus on that vassal, and waiting for him to rebel when accused of a crime.

 

[Eldath]

Now that I think about it I realized that Bön is the only religion where choosing patron deity and picking the Martial focused one not only gives you + on Martial but also +10 on your Personal Combat Skill. That combined with the Bön Warrior Lodge's level 1 ability that heals wounds, I'd say Bön is a pretty sweet choice.

 

[Wakizashi]

Now that I think about it I realized that Bön is the only religion where choosing patron deity and picking the Martial focused one not only gives you + on Martial but also +10 on your Personal Combat Skill. That combined with the Bön Warrior Lodge's level 1 ability that heals wounds, I'd say Bön is a pretty sweet choice.

Really now? That sounds pretty great.

 

[Eldath]

Yeah I just checked it. If you pick the warrior deity you get +10 Combat skill.

 

[makaramus]

warmonger bön reformation
...

 

[Castimirr]

Thanks for the info. I'm not seeing the “pick patron deity” decision on the intrigue tab in my game. Do you lose that option when you become the temporal leader?

I’ve used that decision plenty of times in my Romuva and African games, not sure why it isn't there now?

It requires Autonomous leadership.

 

[Wakizashi]

Here is a quick update on where I am with my Bon Reformation experiment. I chose Unyielding, Meritocracy + Stability, and Temporal. Haven't had much luck converting any counties from Old Bon yet, but my MA is high, so hopefully it is only a matter of time. I decided against Harmonious because I didn't want my daughters getting claims on my titles, but looks like I will also need to change my succession laws to Agnatic to make that happen. The cousin marriage might get in the way of marrying my way into the U-Tsang kingdom, so another reason to choose plain Meritocracy instead,

The nice thing about Guge 867 is that you start with a Silk Road trading post in your personal domain at Purang, which also contains the temple of Kailash, which is a Bon Holy site. I moved my capital to that province before I even un-paused.

Guge also it sits really close to 3 other light defended Silk Road trade posts in Kathmandu, Udabhanda, and Khotan (which is also another Bon Holy Site). Now I just taking the Theology focus, and letting my vassals conquer in my name. The trade posts are all maxed for current tech levels, and I can focus on building up my capital duchy holdings.

PS - I got personal ownership of the Temple of Kailash my using Intrigue focus on that vassal, and waiting for him to rebel when accused of a crime. View attachment 446149

Quite nice setup you have going on there. Makes me really want to give Bön a go. What are some other good options for a Bön playthrough aside from Guge?

Interesting choices for the Reformation. I suppose Temporal makes most sense in a religion such as the Bön, especially since secular and religious powers are merged already anyway in the Tibeto-Burman system of governance. I would personally probably still opt for Harmonious though, for the 2-in-1 bonus it gives. What do you mean with cousin marriage getting in the way of marrying into U-Tsang though?

 

[Eldath]

It requires Autonomous leadership.

No. I had it after reformation and I never use autonomous

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Quite nice setup you have going on there. Makes me really want to give Bön a go. What are some other good options for a Bön playthrough aside from Guge?

What do you mean with cousin marriage getting in the way of marrying into U-Tsang though?

In 867, Guge and U-Tsang are the two Kingdoms ruled by brothers descended from the former Tibetan Emperor. There are a couple of other small Bon rulers, but I wouldnt expect you to last long unless you swear fealty to one of the two big Kingdoms. You can play in the Tibetan Empire in 769, but many of those lords are Buddhist, so you would have to find a way to convert your religion (or find a Bon vassal) in that start. And by 1066, Bon is weak, so not a lot of options other than those two for a Bon reformation.

Since my brother and then nephew are rulers of U-Tsang, I was worried the cousin marriage restrictions of Harmonious might restrict me from trying to unify the two realms via marriage. Just a guess based on the description in the wiki.

 

[Dragatus]

For the record, daughters will get claims even if your succession is Agnatic. They just aren't personally eligible for inheritance and their claims can't get pressed. But their claims will get passed down to their sons and they can press them (if the conditions allow for the pressing of weak claims).

 

[Wakizashi]

In 867, Guge and U-Tsang are the two Kingdoms ruled by brothers descended from the former Tibetan Emperor. There are a couple of other small Bon rulers, but I wouldnt expect you to last long unless you swear fealty to one of the two big Kingdoms. You can play in the Tibetan Empire in 769, but many of those lords are Buddhist, so you would have to find a way to convert your religion (or find a Bon vassal) in that start. And by 1066, Bon is weak, so not a lot of options other than those two for a Bon reformation.

Since my brother and then nephew are rulers of U-Tsang, I was worried the cousin marriage restrictions of Harmonious might restrict me from trying to unify the two realms via marriage. Just a guess based on the description in the wiki.

Thanks for the information. So you mean because Harmonious bans close kin marriage, right? Although it would seem unlikely to me that cousin marriage would be included in that.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

After my first go as Reformed Bon, I started wishing I had picked something different than Unyielding/Meritocracy/Stability/Temporal.

As the Religious Head, your need your piety and diplomacy high to maintain Moral Authority. I found myself not wanting to spend piety on the Stability feature, and not wanting to act impiously, lest I lower my Diplomacy by murdering my kin to inherit their titles. I tried giving my Temporal title to a Holy Site priest, but I wasn't able to give them the Scepter of Tranquility artifact, so that felt like a no-go.

I decided to revert back to my pre-Reformation save, and chose Unyielding/Ancestor Veneration/Monasticism/Hierocratic instead. Here's my rationale:

Ancestor Veneration- since the King of Guge, U-Tsang, and many lords of Kham and Sumparu are my same dynasty, culture group, and follow my religion, why not just name the leaders of one of those realms my heir via Eldership succession? And if I have to pick up a couple of venerated Ancestor bloodlines in the process, even better.

Monasticism - if there are Imbecile/Slow dynasty members, wait until the undesirable is briefly not the heir, then have them take the vows and exclude them from inheritance. Also the +2 to Learning seems right in line with the Warrior Monk vibe in the Tibetan realms.

Hierocratic - now someone else can be pious, while I do what has be done. And if I need an Excommunication on a rival, even better. And hopefully they venerate one of my early characters so I get an extra bloodline until game end.

I played for a few years, and the below is what happened.


While the King of U-Tsang (my half-brother) was my heir via Eldership, his son managed to inherit the Kingdom of Kham. Then the King of U-Tsang died, and the kingdoms of Kham and U-Tsang merged. Then my ruler, the King of Guge, died soon after, and now I am playing as a 14 yr old with 3 kingdoms, and enough piety and vassalization CBs to form the Empire of Tibet as soon as I come out of my regency. Not too shabby!

As long as I don't get wiped out by China or the Mongols, I should be able to make it to 1453, no problem.

 

[Wakizashi]

After my first go as Reformed Bon, I started wishing I had picked something different than Unyielding/Meritocracy/Stability/Temporal.

As the Religious Head, your need your piety and diplomacy high to maintain Moral Authority. I found myself not wanting to spend piety on the Stability feature, and not wanting to act impiously, lest I lower my Diplomacy by murdering my kin to inherit their titles. I tried giving my Temporal title to a Holy Site priest, but I wasn't able to give them the Scepter of Tranquility artifact, so that felt like a no-go.

I decided to revert back to my pre-Reformation save, and chose Unyielding/Ancestor Veneration/Monasticism/Hierocratic instead. Here's my rationale:

Ancestor Veneration- since the King of Guge, U-Tsang, and many lords of Kham and Sumparu are my same dynasty, culture group, and follow my religion, why not just name the leaders of one of those realms my heir via Eldership succession? And if I have to pick up a couple of venerated Ancestor bloodlines in the process, even better.

Monasticism - if there are Imbecile/Slow dynasty members, wait until the undesirable is briefly not the heir, then have them take the vows and exclude them from inheritance. Also the +2 to Learning seems right in line with the Warrior Monk vibe in the Tibetan realms.

Hierocratic - now someone else can be pious, while I do what has be done. And if I need an Excommunication on a rival, even better. And hopefully they venerate one of my early characters so I get an extra bloodline until game end.

I played for a few years, and the below is what happened.


While the King of U-Tsang (my half-brother) was my heir via Eldership, his son managed to inherit the Kingdom of Kham. Then the King of U-Tsang died, and the kingdoms of Kham and U-Tsang merged. Then my ruler, the King of Guge, died soon after, and now I am playing as a 14 yr old with 3 kingdoms, and enough piety and vassalization CBs to form the Empire of Tibet as soon as I come out of my regency. Not too shabby!

As long as I don't get wiped out by China or the Mongols, I should be able to make it 1453, no problem.

View attachment 446487

Very nice developments indeed. But doesn't Temporal have the benefit in a Bön game of being able to declare a Great Holy War against the Buddhist realms surrounding you?