Best national idea groups for Byzantium?

[Chris2013]

I'm playing through ironman Byzantium and I just reached admin 7. I picked up religious already and filled that completely, but where should I go next? I'm thinking diplomatic because all the relations I have are eating my diplo points, plus the advisor and reputation sound nice.

Defensive or offensive also sound good, but I'm already behind my main threat (Mamluks) because they became lucky after destroying the Ottomans, and I figure mil tech is more important than the idea groups.

So should diplo be my second choice? What do other Byzantine players think?

 

[Korashy]

If you already got Anatolia back, go with Expansion. The CB it gives you for central Asia is incredible. You could also go with Innovative.

 

[unmerged(739896)]

Another vote for expansion, the +2 relations will be precious by the time you piss off some large European country (Venice)

 

[Chris2013]

I ended up taking diplomatic for the diplomat and to get the +2 relations sooner. I'll definitely pick up expansion somewhere down the line for more relations and perhaps some East African colonies in the distant future.

As for Venice, they pose no problem at all. In fact, I just crushed them to steal Dalmatia (but also Kaffa from Genoa because they actually have powerful allies, besides Venice). Having Spain and Austria as allies is really useful.

I have managed to piss off Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, though. I'm done expanding into the Balkans for a long time, so hopefully by the time I return they'll feel better about not answering their call to arms.

 

[Korashy]

I feel like Expansion would have been the better choice (as is most of the time), the only semi important idea that diplomacy provides over expansion is -25% unjustified demands

 

[gasior]

i rly enjoyed my expansion -> religious
Its good against any Sunni/shiite asian nation

 

[grisamentum]

I'm playing through ironman Byzantium and I just reached admin 7. I picked up religious already and filled that completely, but where should I go next? I'm thinking diplomatic because all the relations I have are eating my diplo points, plus the advisor and reputation sound nice.

Defensive or offensive also sound good, but I'm already behind my main threat (Mamluks) because they became lucky after destroying the Ottomans, and I figure mil tech is more important than the idea groups.

So should diplo be my second choice? What do other Byzantine players think?

Expansion, Diplomatic, Religious, Quality, Offensive, Defensive, Innovative, and then whatever for your eighth group.

Sadly this is answer to every single thread that asks, "What Idea groups for (X)?" The ONLY variation is exploration for some groups.

 

[grisamentum]

I feel like Expansion would have been the better choice (as is most of the time), the only semi important idea that diplomacy provides over expansion is -25% unjustified demands

The +relations is vital for expanding faster, as is the +reputation for speeding up annexing and getting new diplo vassals. Diplomatic Events are pretty great too with no really bad ones; Justified Demands, Brilliant Diplomat, and Diplomatic Reputation in particular are pretty good.

 

[zodium]

Expansion, Diplomatic, Religious, Quality, Offensive, Defensive, Innovative, and then whatever for your eighth group.

Sadly this is answer to every single thread that asks, "What Idea groups for (X)?" The ONLY variation is exploration for some groups.

Well, the order's not quite right (Quality before Offensive? Innovative as the 7th idea group?), but that's essentially the idea groups I take every game. The order can actually vary quite substantially by country, and after four full games I'm confident this is Byzantium's optimal:

Expansion, Offensive, Religious, Diplomatic, Innovative, Quality, X, Y (it doesn't matter what you take for 7th and 8th group for any country due to snowballing, and Byzantium is no different here).

Byzantium doesn't have to take Diplomatic until later because you can just stay above your relations limit, having no need for DIP technology whatsoever. My last game finished at DIP 6, purely for the Embassy.

 

[grisamentum]

Byzantium doesn't have to take Diplomatic until later because you can just stay above your relations limit, having no need for DIP technology whatsoever. My last game finished at DIP 6, purely for the Embassy.

Right, but if you happen to have a period of low Dip rulers, you won't have enough points to do things like return cores. Diplomatic Ideas are worth 2 dip points/mo in that case (yes, assuming we are going over limits.) And buying 3 dip techs to get the Embassy is actually more expensive than just taking the group and paying 400 for the Diplomat.

And yeah, the order isn't quite what I'd do either. I probably wouldn't go for a military group until my 3rd group though, since if I'm going to be ahead of time on anything, I'd probably want to be ahead of time on military. And if I happen to have like an 0/0/6 ruler, I'd just go over limit on leaders.

 

[zodium]

Right, but if you happen to have a period of low Dip rulers, you won't have enough points to do things like return cores. Diplomatic Ideas are worth 2 dip points/mo in that case (yes, assuming we are going over limits.) And buying 3 dip techs to get the Embassy is actually more expensive than just taking the group and paying 400 for the Diplomat.

And yeah, the order isn't quite what I'd do either. I probably wouldn't go for a military group until my 3rd group though, since if I'm going to be ahead of time on anything, I'd probably want to be ahead of time on military. And if I happen to have like an 0/0/6 ruler, I'd just go over limit on leaders.

This is an almost entirely hypothetical concern, in my experience. You will not have more than 8 vassals as Byzantium until you reach India, which coincides with the timing of taking Diplomatic in my list, and the loss of two DIP per month is irrelevant given the ability to ignore DIP tech. After the initial Balkan rush, an optimal Byzantium will have the following vassals in particular: Guyenne, Granada, Styria, Ukraine, Perm, Syria, Persia and Baluchistan.

You can certainly plan your strategy around the rather minor chance that you will have "a string of low DIP rulers," but strategies that overemphasize minor chances are not optimal. It may be worthwhile to point out that you often don't need to spend DIP points to return cores at all, since Detach Siege allows you to grant siege ownership to your vassal when they have a core on the province.

 

[grisamentum]

This is an almost entirely hypothetical concern, in my experience. You will not have more than 8 vassals as Byzantium until you reach India, which coincides with the timing of taking Diplomatic in my list, and the loss of two DIP per month is irrelevant given the ability to ignore DIP tech. After the initial Balkan rush, an optimal Byzantium will have the following vassals in particular: Guyenne, Granada, Styria, Ukraine, Perm, Syria, Persia and Baluchistan.

You can certainly plan your strategy around the rather minor chance that you will have "a string of low DIP rulers," but strategies that overemphasize minor chances are not optimal. It may be worthwhile to point out that you often don't need to spend DIP points to return cores at all, since Detach Siege allows you to grant siege ownership to your vassal when they have a core on the province.

I was probably overly influenced by my own Byzantium game with low-dip ruler, so I think you're correct overall. I also have a bad habit of gambling on low-chance RMs like Spain and Muscovy which raises my number of relations.

 

[alecsandru010]

For my Byz game i picked: naval, religious, defensive, trade, offensive, expansion + whatever you want. I didn't bothered to continue it...

 

[zodium]

I was probably overly influenced by my own Byzantium game with low-dip ruler, so I think you're correct overall. I also have a bad habit of gambling on low-chance RMs like Spain and Muscovy which raises my number of relations.

Gambling on RMs is actually a great early-game move, but only if you're Catholic and can get Curia Controller quickly--otherwise, vassal feeding is a better use of slots. After the early game, it becomes better to just RM temporarily if they get an old heirless ruler (just remember to farm Trust to overcome the rival/hostile penalty, of course).