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1alexey

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In reality, the Western MBT is actually a specialist anti-tank vehicle - it was meant to take on the hordes of Soviet tanks in the inventory of Group of Soviet Forces Germany. This is why its main gun only really has ammunition suitable for destroying armored vehicles, as opposed to a much wider array of ammunition available for the 105mm L7 of the M60 Patton. This is why its armor is meant to defeat 125mm tank rounds, not dinky RPG-7s carried by your regular Taliban or Iraqi insurgent.
It is surprising that you don`t know that western MBTs have had proper anti-personnel munitions for decades. It is more an issue of corrupt American military industrial complex that their tanks were not armed with "cheap" anti-personel rounds, so military would buy more of expensive rounds.
Instead, Panzer Divisions - of which no more than 20 were available in most cases - were meant to form a highly mobile reserve for deep penetrations and counter-attacks; meant to keep the enemy off-balance. This is why Guderian famously said that the tank relies on its engine to be its main weapon, and really it matters less whether your tank is equipped with a 75mm L70 instead of a 50mm Pak when you're surprising T-34s and taking them by flank.
Indeed, that is presumably why they up gunned and unarmored their tanks constantly, decreasing their speed, instead of putting in bigger engines to increase speed.
Finally, the idea that the T-34 or Sherman went obsolete after the war is false. The T-34 is in fact still suspected to be in use in some African countries, because they serve perfectly fine against enemies with no anti-tank weapon heavier than an RPG-7. The Sherman had a glorious post-war career with the Indians and Israelies. The former - using unupgraded Shermans - were instrumental in several armor vs armor engagements that humiliated the Pakistanis using M48 Pattons (a tank supposedly better than the Pershing), while the Israelis - using Shermans upgunned to a 75mm roughly equivalent to the performance of the L70s - are confirmed to have taken on and destroyed T-62 tanks at Yom Kippur.
And here I thought that being only good against military without decent AT, is the definition of obsolete.
But sure, Soviet tank designers tried to create a replacement for T-34 since 1943, just for fun.
Hence, this idea that gunpower and armor are so important vs reliability is false.
And let me guess, the proof would be that replacing the old, reliable and fast BT-7 with new tank, with larger gun and thicker armor, slower, more expensive and terribly unreliable at first T-34 was proven to be a terrible idea.
:rolleyes:
 

plasticpanzers

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Alexy, we get rid of excess nuclear waste by converting it into 120mm and 30mm uranium rounds....recycling is good for the enviroment...

Actually the German Goliath would be the most powerful tank per pound. Capable of destroying any tank in the world...and by joystick!

The Israeli's are darn good at making things work better than the original owners planned. The failure of such being obvious...


I should be reading but my wife has taken over the sofa....sorry I still pestering....:sad:
 

Mjarr

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The Panzer Division, contrary to popular belief, was never meant to be the primary anti-tank component of the German army in the Second World War. Those who contest this are unaware that the Germans had an entirely different set of units that were meant to perform anti-tank work - the "Panzerjaeger" - of which one abteilung (battalion) was present in every first-class German infantry Division and efforts were made to have one even in the Volksgrenadier outfits.

It gets funnier when one notes doctrine is not set in stone like laws of physics but simply contrast views how something should be used and designs only reflect it to some point. As the war progressed there was also growing view amongst the Germans that tank's primary purpose is to kill enemy tanks and if one looks how uniformly everything was equipped and the tank combat in the East also influenced notable portion of their design (armour hardening used on their AFVs etc and relatively higher portions of open terrain relatively speaking etc) one could say their doctrine essentially found itself sandwiched between other conclusions. Once Russians started adopting ballistic caps in sufficiently large numbers by late 1944, they ceased making face hardened armour although the Americans had been using caps pretty much since they got to Africa and the British also adopted them around early 1944.

Finally, the idea that the T-34 or Sherman went obsolete after the war is false.

As far as general technology advancement goes they were obsolete. Of course not everything can be up-to-date 100% of the time and if something is serviceable, it probably will be used as long as possible and even simple upgrades can do wonders until someone has enough funds and practical reason to retire large number of vehicles\equipment. :p
 
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Darkrenown

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Well thats 41 to 43 and the T34s made in one plant were not always able to use parts done in the 2nd plant. On the T34/85 they were pretty new ones
given to the N. Koreans but the Aberdeen proving grounds did not find much different in problems than with the T34/76 mechanically.

Taking things out of order for a moment, I am curious as to why the American trials of Soviet tanks lasting a few months (I don't know exactly how long they tested some, someone do chip in) by people probably trained on Shermans are a valid source for you, but the French report on using Panthers for several years was invalid. Is it just because it supports the point you wanted to make, or do you believe Americans share the German racial gift of tank adaptability?
 

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You seriously have a racial attitude towards folks. Maybe its the meatballs there in Sweden... Strange they don't cause that kind
of problems over here when I order them at the local Ikea.....

You do understand what Aberdeen Proving Grounds is don't you and what they do? They were the premier testing facility for all the
armaments of the US and whatever they can obtain from anybody else. They are specialists at looking at everything and testing it.
After WWI tons of German equipment was sent there for testing. Sadly some was destroyed in the 'scrap metal' drive frenzy of WW2.

Their work and input into armaments is famous (except for perhaps in Sweden, you guys don't get out much do you?) You never saw
the pictures of the items stored there over the years? Much of the current testing is now done in specialist labs but jeewillikers you really
need to google Aberdeen (and no its not the Terrier). Take a look at the stuff still stored there tho some has been moved or is in storage.

Little David is there (the worlds largest mortar), A WW2 German railway gun, Tiger tanks, US tanks, the old Atomic Cannon, just tons and
tons of stuff that run and shoot or sit and shoot. From everywhere!

You do know that 2 Panthers as well as tons of other German vehicles were brought over and test run and test fired upon there? Did you
read that wee report on analysis of armor plate from the Ordinance Dept. Who do you think the Ordinance Dept does their testing? You
know all those German and other vehicles you see shown were not brought over here as paperweights don't you?

I is flabergasted.............I is amazed at your lack of knowledge on this..............surely you have Google and pray not a just Swedelgoogle?

And Mr. bringing up racial stuff guy.....The US is made up of every nation on earth including Sweden (shock). I would not even be suprised
if a Swede/American had ever worked there (shock! dismay! denial). Just like they let Irish, Germans, and Russians like my family work here
or be in the military here. We are just one big freakin family under the stars and strips. Please stop using 'Racial' BS or I will get out my big
ugly stick, get on a plane, knock down your Ikea made Swedish door, and thump you up one side and down the other til you understand me
more clearly and we have better international cooperation and friendship.

Now if you will stop making me visualize you dressed as one of those French dancers waving a tricolor with one hand with the words Panther 47
painted on it while you play LMarsaillies with a kazoo with your other hand I will partake pity upon your poor mad soul and maybe let you live.

Now. its 3 fucking 21 AM here in California in the fucking desert where it will be a beautiful balmy 106 today when the sun creeps up so while your
overthere in your Scandinavian wonderland on Sundy sucking up coffee and more Swedish meatballs remember I need sleep and not agravation
from you youngster!

caprende? Anyhow its Sunday you wanker! why aren't you in chruch or cutting cheese or making ice cube for export on days like today......

Harrauph! enough! I tired and I need some sleep so I won't get reaeeallly cranky when i wake up and post later this morning........goodnite...

PS: oh yeah. I will try and find the full aberdeen report on the T34/76 T34/85 and KV1 tank sent here for testing....if you don;t find em first.
but again i go beddyby..............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Darkrenown

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DR, This is fun!

Basically the info provided was to show information of losses on both sides and some side info on loss reasons for German armor. This
post is not just about you (you nasty man) but about information. There were other posts before yours. Plus I like information and
like to share it... (edit add: those losses show knocking out those Tigers wasn't 'free').

Please quote where I said knocking out the Tigers were free, because what I actually said was they were killed at a 1-1 ratio with Shermans/Cromwells. Your numbers show nothing - you posted the British and American losses for different periods and then no total German losses, just an analysis of what destroyed some German tanks the British looked at. What conclusion can be drawn from these numbers? That all sides fighting in France lost some tanks? That was never in dispute.

You and a few others keep quoting Arracourt as some type of 'proof of life' that the Sherman was superior to the Panther or that having
the Panther at all was hurting the Germans. At the range they were fighting hitting a Panther in the side certainly would kill it but the
sources you keep quoting don't go into the detail needed to show WHY the Germans lost that engagement. You keep saying the won/
lost the battle. The battle took place over several days and was inclusive of several divisions and brigades as well as artillery, air, and
weather. Each part of the battle is an engagement. You keep talking about the battle instead of breaking it down into its components
to see what actually happened. To your mind battle won don't need to know more or why....and you did not seem to understand that
battles are made of smaller and smaller battles called engagements. The "Band of Brothers" company at Bastogne fought a series of
engagements in the battle. Its was not the battle of the "band of brothers". That shows your bonocular vision of history/facts. You
look too close and need to back off and see more of a question to see the proper answer.

Again no. I brought up Arracourt for two reasons:
1) To counter the claim that the Americans only fought with superior numbers and airpower.
2) To show that the supposed ability of Panthers to kill Shermans with impunity does not bear out when you actually look at battles they were both involved in.

If you didn't read the free account of the battle just say so. Why does official US historical archives frighten some people in Europe?
They are quite objective, amazingly so. The only time they wander is to mention instances where a soldier earns a particluar medal
and its usually a footnote... What info source exactly did you base your initial Arracourt position on?

I didn't read it, I thought that was clear. I don't have the time or inclination to go read a book just because you want me to. If it has a bearing on the discussion, again, post what you think and cite the relevant part of your source to back it up.

Probably because you mentioned Wiki when you complained about my complaints about Wiki. Were going in strange circles here like the
Panther won and lost battles issue....

The only strange thing here is your reasoning. You went off on a rant about wikipedia at me when I had not used any wiki sources. I haven't noticed anyone else citing wikipedia in this thread either, although it's possible I missed it.

I am truely glad WoT has a tanker on its staff. Fine by me tho having an F15 pilot tell me about flying aircraft in 1944 might be a bit odd. I base
my information on years of research myself. I have never fought in a Sherman tank and I suspect the WoT fellow, tho most certainly a honored
member of the military, did not either. Hearing stories from my Grandfather about flying for the RAF in WWI and knowing about WW2 air combat
I can see the difference there clearly. Your expert at WoT is doing exactly what I do here, research with books and articles.

Yes, I know he is doing research just like you, which is why I find it very strange that you just arbitrarily dismiss "WoT" as a source.

You have posted alot of facts repeatidly using the same sources over and over and I keep providing you with conflicting and accurate information
that you choose not to use nor acknowledge. This is your failing, not mine. Data is never random.

You have not. You have posted a couple of opinion pieces from people not in possession of all the facts as if they contradict the reports of the industrialists who made the Panther, the officers who commanded them, or the historians who studied how they actually performed. Often I point out problems with your source or ask how the data you are posting is relevant, but instead of answering you just jump to your next argument as if you hope that by just posting enough I'll forget how little substance is in each post.

And data certainly can be random, if I ask you what is 2+2 and you respond by telling me that "so called" arabic numerals were actually invented in India, it's certainly a data point but it doesn't answer the question. You keep doing this as if posting enough unrelated bookquotes will establish you as well-versed in the topic, but any idiot can post quotes at random from a book, it does not make a coherent argument.

Funny is that I talked to my wife and since my brother (an ex-Marine of 37 years service who provides me info too on warfare) is 72 does not need
them I may will all my WW2 history books and have them sent after I fall off the perch to you fellas in Sweden. Would make good doorstops if you
have that many doors and I am sure Ikea is nearby if you need some more bookcases. I hate to see good stuff wasted.

We have rather few doors at the office, but despite what you think I do love history books. That's a kind offer.

Yes and strangely they translated a Panther book as well for their crews to use...

Actually true! (And yes, here we have a "WoT source" - the author is a Russian engineer with access to the Soviet defense archives which he translates and posts, it's interesting stuff)
 

DarthShizNit

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This conversation is pointless, for it is know that the IS2 was the best light, medium, heavy, super heavy, super duper heavy tank, and all others things.

All hail the IS2.
 

plasticpanzers

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Nope, still the Goliath. Can blow up a IS2 with one shot. Its only shot.

DR. I have found some APG stuff but need some sleep so i will trash your arguments in several hours or more.

and oh i mean it on the books but I will be sure there addressed to Podcat! hehehehe!
 

DarthShizNit

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Nope, still the Goliath. Can blow up a IS2 with one shot. Its only shot.

The IS2 shall purge you with it's holy 122mm cannon of truth and, and deal you swift justice with it's might rear turret machine gun. And then after you have been cleansed, you shall be forgiven for your tractor worshiping, for the IS2 is merciful.
 

Darkrenown

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You seriously have a racial attitude towards folks. Maybe its the meatballs there in Sweden... Strange they don't cause that kind
of problems over here when I order them at the local Ikea.....

Your insults against Swedes are misplaced, I am not Swedish.

You do understand what Aberdeen Proving Grounds is don't you and what they do? They were the premier testing facility for all the
armaments of the US and whatever they can obtain from anybody else. They are specialists at looking at everything and testing it.
After WWI tons of German equipment was sent there for testing.

Yes, I know what Aberdeen is/was. In fact I have been there and quite literally have the tshirt (It has a Tiger tank on it). I don't dispute the Aberdeen report (well in a few parts, but that is not relevant), what I wondered was why you accept it when the same reasoning you gave for dismissing the French report on Panthers could be given for dismissing the US report on T-34s. Let me remind you of your post:
French soldiers working in them are not Panther crewmen. The French army at that time is equipped with Sherman tanks and only had
a small number of Panthers. The crews were not homegrown trained on the Panther but transfered to them (FFI crewed many captured
first) from Sherman crews or TD crews. Of course they are not going to like to use a system different from that they trained in. German
forces were taught to use the systems they had just as much as others. German crews despised the optical and view system of the T34
Sherman crews were amazed at the quality of the German ones.

Where do you think those Panther crews went when the Panthers were phased out? Back to Shermans that they were trained on. The
Panthers used by France were gathered from all over from battlefields and are not factory fresh. Many were damaged or had breakdowns.
They were never used in combat by the French. They were used in training missions and i very strongly suspect were used as mobile
targets for the regular French crews in maneuvers, not as the aggressor. Repeat: They were not used by the French in combat.

So:
The US soldiers working on the T-34/KV are not T-34/KV crewmen.
The US army was not equipped with T-34/KVs, they only had 1 of each for testing.
The US crewmen were not "homegrown" Russians, and had trained on other tanks before testing the T-34/KV.
The US did not use the T-34/KV in combat.

So why is the US report a valid source while the French report is not, despite the French having used Panthers for far longer than the US tested the T-34/KV?

Their work and input into armaments is famous (except for perhaps in Sweden, you guys don't get out much do you?)

More anti-Sweden hate speech, how rude.

Little David is there (the worlds largest mortar), A WW2 German railway gun, Tiger tanks, US tanks, the old Atomic Cannon, just tons and
tons of stuff that run and shoot or sit and shoot. From everywhere!

That's certainly relevant to their WWII report on T-34/KVs :rolleyes:

You do know that 2 Panthers as well as tons of other German vehicles were brought over and test run and test fired upon there? Did you
read that wee report on analysis of armor plate from the Ordinance Dept. Who do you think the Ordinance Dept does their testing? You
know all those German and other vehicles you see shown were not brought over here as paperweights don't you?

And so? I know the US tested the Panther's armour, I knew it before you brought it up and I didn't dispute it when you did.

I is flabergasted.............I is amazed at your lack of knowledge on this..............surely you have Google and pray not a just Swedelgoogle?

Wow.

And Mr. bringing up racial stuff guy.....The US is made up of every nation on earth including Sweden (shock). I would not even be suprised
if a Swede/American had ever worked there (shock! dismay! denial). Just like they let Irish, Germans, and Russians like my family work here
or be in the military here. We are just one big freakin family under the stars and strips. Please stop using 'Racial' BS or I will get out my big
ugly stick, get on a plane, knock down your Ikea made Swedish door, and thump you up one side and down the other til you understand me
more clearly and we have better international cooperation and friendship.

You're really proving your lack of racism by insulting Sweden a lot, good job. You're the one who said French crews were just incapable of learning to drive other tanks, while German crews could do so perfectly. I didn't make that up, you said it and then defended it when I asked if that was really what you meant.

Now. its 3 fucking 21 AM here in California in the fucking desert where it will be a beautiful balmy 106 today when the sun creeps up so while your
overthere in your Scandinavian wonderland on Sundy sucking up coffee and more Swedish meatballs remember I need sleep and not agravation
from you youngster!

caprende? Anyhow its Sunday you wanker! why aren't you in chruch or cutting cheese or making ice cube for export on days like today......

So rude now, you are making me sad :(

PS: oh yeah. I will try and find the full aberdeen report on the T34/76 T34/85 and KV1 tank sent here for testing....if you don;t find em first.
but again i go beddyby..............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

That would be interesting, I don't think the full report was ever released.

and oh i mean it on the books but I will be sure there addressed to Podcat! hehehehe!

Well the rest I could forgive, but now we are enemies :mad:
 

podcat

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Darkrenown said:
Well the rest I could forgive, but now we are enemies :mad:

hush ;)
 

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The problem in part really is that "medium tank" is a semantic classification, and is actually meaningless on the battlefield. A modern Arleigh Burke class "destroyer" for instance is as large and heavy as a World War 2 "cruiser" - and you can't really have a good definition of what a "medium" tank is when the tanks claimed to be mediums range from 25 to 45 tons and some countries already classified their 45 ton tanks as heavies (the Soviets considered both the 45 ton IS-2 and KV tanks as heavies).

Doctrinally, "medium" tanks also varied widely in role. Shermans were officially exploitation units under Armored Divisions, but were infantry support elements in the case of individual independent battalions attached to the infantry. And really, comparing a tank versus its doctrine is a much better determinant of whether the design is good or not.

I don't disagree that it's a case of semantics, though the concept of light/medium/heavy roles did exist, thereby allowing the various contemporary tank models per belligerent to be compared to a degree. Comparison can also be drawn from how a particular tank was utilized (effectiveness) while it was being used in a particular role. Indeed the Sherman as initially designed was primarily an infantry support vehicle, though so was the pz IV. Yet in both cases they were used/modified to fulfill the "medium tank role."

And yes, doctrine is of course important to consider here. If US doctrine wasn't supported by the Sherman it could be considered a bad design for the US purposes. However, also crucial to consider is that doctrine is situational, adaptable and fluid...indeed the M4 was used in the German inspired "schwerepunkt" sense, where concentration of armor could be used to enable and exploit tactical victories. Interestingly, the Sherman was quite capable in this sense. Partly due to reliability and massive supporting arms being available and almost always employed in conjunction, and partly due to incredible numerical superiority.
 

Gamer_1745

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I hope you guys are having fun! :p It is fun to read! Who ever came up with Hearts of Iron IV social media campaign should find something else to do at Paradox! The whole Allies, Axis & Comintern contest thing really doesn't understand HoI players or the target demo! It should have been team Panther, Sherman & T-34. I am not joking here. I don't think most players really identify as democrats, Nazis or Communists when playing the game. They see the challenges the side they are playing had and how to overcome them.

So Darkrenown is filled with Panther Hate, my guess is because so many people think it was great and he sees the flaws in it or just because he hates tanks named after cats (tell us your feeling on the Leopard II?). Now I see the Panther as a great concept that had problems because of the wartime conditions. The main player demo for a HoI game is a person with strong interest in the war and people, units & weapons (tanks, guns, aircraft, ships & other) involved in the war.
 

Darkrenown

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So Darkrenown is filled with Panther Hate, my guess is because so many people think it was great and he sees the flaws in it or just because he hates tanks named after cats (tell us your feeling on the Leopard II?).

The former, and I think the Leo 2 is great. I actually love the WWII big cats when it comes to games or art, or even just the abstract concept of them - I just don't think they were very effective weapon systems in the real war they fought in.
 

frolix42

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or do you believe Americans share the German racial gift of tank adaptability?

This is cringeworthy.

Yes, I know he is doing research just like you, which is why I find it very strange that you just arbitrarily dismiss "WoT" as a source.

It's not that WoT should be dismissed as a source completely, it does however spread misconceptions such as when WoT players are shocked to learn that the Sherman in WW2 was almost always armed with a 75mm gun.

Fun and Balance > Historical Reality in WoT the same way as it does in Paradox games. The people in charge of designing tanks for WoT don't answer to The_Chieftian as their final authority.
 
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keynes2.0

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It's not that WoT should be dismissed as a source completely, it does however spread misconceptions such as when WoT players are shocked to learn that the Sherman in WW2 was almost always armed with a 75mm gun.

Nobody in this thread has made that mistake as far as I remember.

However we have seen repeated posts which have cited total Soviet and German tank losses in '41. Even leaving aside the logic error in this argument, they seem to be unaware that the Soviets had just under 1000 T-34s at the start of Barbarossa and the tanks lost were much smaller and older tanks.

Compared to mistaking a T-26 for a T-34, the difference between a M4(75) and a M4(76) is nitpicking.
 

Darkrenown

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This is cringeworthy.

You explain his claim that the French were just plain unable to learn how to work their Panthers because they trained on Shermans first then.

It's not that WoT should be dismissed as a source completely, it does however spread misconceptions such as when WoT players are shocked to learn that the Sherman in WW2 was almost always armed with a 75mm gun.

Fun and Balance > Historical Reality in WoT the same way as it does in Paradox games. The people in charge of designing tanks for WoT don't answer to The_Chieftian as their final authority.

At no point have I, or anyone I have seen, tried to use WoT the game as a source. Only some posts by people on their forum or articles by their tank expert.
 

Novacat

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You say that the modern MBT now weighs 60+ tonnes, but that only applies to Western MBTs. The T-72 by contrast only weighs around 45 tons (the same as a Panther), and the T-90 similarly hovers at a similar weight level. The latter in particular is widely seen as a peer competitor of the M1Abrams, with similar levels of armoring (albeit the use of classified ERA or composites materials by both sides means we will never know for certain which tank actually has better armor), a gun just as big and powerful, and moves just as fast. "Bigger" is in fact not necessarily "better".

There is actual data on the tanks out there, it was even compiled into a nice, easy to see image. Overall, the T-90 only has superiority to the M1 Abrams. The M1A1 has comparable armor (and thats including the reactive on the T-90) and a far superior main gun. The M1A2 is just superior across the board. Note that the Russian arms industry suffered enormously with the fall of the Soviet Union.

Assuming that all 'Western' MBTs are exactly the same is just plain wrong. Aside from the fact that Western MBTs varied enormously during the Cold War, you had the British with heavily armored, slightly slower Centurions, the Germans and French with their fast, lightly armored Leopard 1s and AMX 30s, then the Americans whom had middle of the road Pattons, although the Pattons had a particular emphasis on hull down tactics and had armor layouts to reflect that. Even to this day you have the Israeli Merkava IV which is so out of left field that even Russian tank designs have more in common with Western tanks than it.

Then you have the Type 90 (Japan) at 50 tonnes, the Arjun (Indian) at 60 tonnes, the K2 Black Panther (South Korea) at 55 tonnes, and the Type 99 (PRC) at 60 tonnes. Infact, the only non-Russian tank that has 45 tonnes as its weight is the Chinese/Pakistan export tank, the MBT-2000/Al-Khalid.

Overall, theres a lot of basis on my assertion that the average is 60 tonnes. Note that the newest model of Abrams are clocking in at 70 tonnes.

Secondly, the idea that the Western MBT is a balance of speed, armor, firepower, and reliability is one of the most well-repeated pieces of marketing-speak by BAE and other tank manufacturers, but in reality is pretty nonsensical because people are not looking at the doctrine that created the Western MBT. In reality, the Western MBT is actually a specialist anti-tank vehicle - it was meant to take on the hordes of Soviet tanks in the inventory of Group of Soviet Forces Germany. This is why its main gun only really has ammunition suitable for destroying armored vehicles, as opposed to a much wider array of ammunition available for the 105mm L7 of the M60 Patton. This is why its armor is meant to defeat 125mm tank rounds, not dinky RPG-7s carried by your regular Taliban or Iraqi insurgent.

Russian/Soviet tank designs are not much different, and infact are even worse against infantry due to their poor gun depression and autoloader increasing difficulty of ammunition swaps. The only MBT thats specifically designed against infantry threats is the Merkava IV, which is why it is a radically different design than Western or Russian MBTs.

They actually aren't terribly reliable outside of the West German plains and are extremely logistically intensive - which is why the Abrams was essentially withdrawn from combat in Iraq in favor of lighter vehicles like the Stryker once all of the Iraqi T-72 Divisions had been destroyed. Only for intense urban combat scenarios were the Abrams ever deployed again - and even in these situations specialized Urban Warfare kits were developed as the Abrams doesn't even have basic infantry-armor coordination kit like a plug-in set for a telephone so that the infantrymen could talk to buttoned-up tank crews.

The Abrams issues are entirely due to the gas turbine, which is why the Russians abandoned their gas turbine tank (T-80) and there is a lot of talk about switching the M1 Abrams over to a diesel. Other western tanks like the Leo 2 are known to be rock solid reliable.

The Panzer Division, contrary to popular belief, was never meant to be the primary anti-tank component of the German army in the Second World War. Those who contest this are unaware that the Germans had an entirely different set of units that were meant to perform anti-tank work - the "Panzerjaeger" - of which one abteilung (battalion) was present in every first-class German infantry Division and efforts were made to have one even in the Volksgrenadier outfits.

Kind of curious you make that assertion considering the Panther was specifically designed to counter the Russian KV-1 and T-35. The Panther was meant for tank killing, and although it could support infantry fairly well, to boot. The only amazing anti-infantry tank was the Tiger, ironically, its 88mm gun was more suited to anti-infantry warfare than anti-tank warfare, and its thick front and side armor meant that normal infantry anti-tank weapons of the time would not have been able to penetrate it. I would not be suprised if the Tiger's infamy was primarily due to the allied Infantryman's contact with it.

Finally, the idea that the T-34 or Sherman went obsolete after the war is false. The T-34 is in fact still suspected to be in use in some African countries, because they serve perfectly fine against enemies with no anti-tank weapon heavier than an RPG-7. The Sherman had a glorious post-war career with the Indians and Israelies. The former - using unupgraded Shermans - were instrumental in several armor vs armor engagements that humiliated the Pakistanis using M48 Pattons (a tank supposedly better than the Pershing), while the Israelis - using Shermans upgunned to a 75mm roughly equivalent to the performance of the L70s - are confirmed to have taken on and destroyed T-62 tanks at Yom Kippur. The Panther by contrast was never used as a tank by anyone but the French, as the Bulgarians used theirs as pillboxes post-war.

Your assertion is bad and you should feel bad. Just because a tank is still in use does not mean it is not obsolete. The T-34 and M4 Sherman are still in use even today in some third world backwaters, they are still obsolete. The Sherman became obsolete with the introduction of the M26 Pershing in 1945, and the T-34 became obsolete with the introduction of the T-55, also in 1945. The Americans and Soviets quickly phased the Sherman and T-34 out and that was the end of that. Bringing up examples of the Israelis using Shermans is kind of silly considering that the Israeli army was using -anything- it could get its hands on in 1955, remember that the Israeli state was barely even formed and the Israeli arms industry was nonexistant at this time. The tanks were phased out when the Israeli arms industry was able to establish itself and the Israelis were able to replace the Shermans with far more capable designs.

Note that even the worst opposition the Israeli shermans faced were T-55s and T-62s, and the Shermans still needed HEAT rounds to penetrate. This is in spite of the fact the tanks were upgunned to 105mm Model F1s.

PS: Note that the Israelis had serious problems with the Sherman's reliability due to the added weight of the upgraded guns putting too much strain on the engine and suspension.

It's actually ridiculously and childishly easy to just say "Bigger gun! Bigger armor!" which is precisely what happened with the Panther due to Hitler's meddling.

That was the Tiger. The Panther was actually an attempt to address the shortcomings of the Tiger, primarily the high cost and low production rates, while keeping the anti-tank capabilities. Of course, the primary casualty of the cost-cutting was the reliability.

In reality, it takes engineering skill to fit as much capability into a 45 ton chassis; which should be apparent even in the context of the Second World War when the Soviet IS-2 has the same weight, has a much larger gun (capable of killing Tiger IIs with frontal hits), better armor, similar mobility, and much higher reliability.

The IS-2 could only penetrate the Tiger II from the front by shooting 3-4 times at the welding at point blank range.

No offense, but a lot of your arguments are based on bad information.

The IS-2 was absolutly horrid at anti-tank warfare. Its main gun was primarily designed for infantry support and its front armor was not much better than the Tiger I. The Tiger 2 was heavier, but it had a far better gun and far more armor.
 
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Darkrenown

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The IS-2 could only penetrate the Tiger II from the front by shooting 3-4 times at the welding at point blank range.

No offense, but a lot of your arguments are based on bad information.

The IS-2 was absolutly horrid at anti-tank warfare. Its main gun was primarily designed for infantry support and its front armor was not much better than the Tiger I. The Tiger 2 was heavier, but it had a far better gun and far more armor.

Uh, your link actually says:
During August 1944, a number of Tiger II tanks were captured by the Soviets near Sandomierz and were soon moved to their testing grounds at Kubinka. The Soviet team gave the opinion that the tests revealed the tanks to be severely defective; the transmission and suspension broke down very often and the engine was prone to overheating and consequential failure. Additionally, the Soviet opinion was of deficiencies in the armor after firing many anti-tank rounds at the same target. Not only did they report that the metal was of shoddy quality (a problem not particular to the Tiger II—as the war progressed, the Germans found it harder and harder to obtain the alloying materials needed for high-quality steel), but the welding was also, despite "careful workmanship", extremely poor. As a result, even when shells did not penetrate the armor, there was often a large amount of spalling, and the armor plating could often crack at the welds when struck by multiple heavy shells, rendering the tank inoperable. They also claimed that their A-19 and BS-3 guns could penetrate the weld joint on the hull front at 500 m, and the turret front at 1,000-1,500 m.The Russian author later admitted the penetration of hull front joint was achieved "after 3-4 shots".

So the metal was shoddy, meaning almost any hit from an IS-2 would spall the crew to death and the turret could be penned from up to 1500m.

There's a more detailed report here.

The only amazing anti-infantry tank was the Tiger, ironically, its 88mm gun was more suited to anti-infantry warfare than anti-tank warfare

It's not really ironic, the 88 was chosen over the 75 especially for its larger HE charge. It was also pretty good for AT work though, you make it sound bad there.
 
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