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xthetenth

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Neither Japanese nor the Americans lost huge fraction of their carriers at the start of the war.

For the US: Langley, Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp and Hornet were sunk by the end of 1942 leaving the Saratoga and Enterprise.

For Japan: Kaga, Akagi, Ryujo, Soryu, Hiryu, Shoho were sunk, leaving Hosho, Ryuho, Zuiho, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Junyo and Hiyo.

The proportions look much worse if you only count fleet carriers and don't count stupid barely useful ships for Japan.

Seriously, you cannot just ignore loss statistics entirely because you don't like them. We just need to place them in proper context. And when it comes to the Navy, we can safely say that Kriegsmarine wasn't that good - because so many engagements between them and the Royal Navy turned out to be defeats for Germans.

And yet they lost 0% as many carriers as the US, UK and Japan! The only time a pure comparison of loss rates makes any sense is when what's being compared fights only against similar enemies, the numbers and surrounding doctrine and support equipment isn't overshadowing the differences between the equipment being compared, and no outside system has a major impact on losses. Tanks fill none of those criteria. Non-proportional loss counts are literally the single worst metric of a weapon's performance. They can be changed far more dramatically by doctrine than by the actual details of their use. Context, not doctrine, is the prime determinant of loss rates. Even if Germany had no tanks, the Soviets would have tanks and uses for them that took them into the way of enemy fire. So if the Germans didn't use their tanks, the Soviets would lose literally infinitely more tanks! For obvious reasons, despite the loss rates argument, tanks do not become more useful if you refuse to use them.

There are three different levels of quality to consider for any weapon system: the tactical, the operational and the strategic.

If we only consider strategic, then the Sherman wins because Americans could turn them out in massive numbers and they won the war. Similarly, the T-34 is a strategically a good tank for the same reasons. On the operational level, priorities change - you value reliability and fuel economy/range more than anything else. On the tactical level, the priorities change yet again - now survivability, visibility and the ability to destroy enemy tanks becomes most important. There is not a single tank that clearly excels in all three categories.

Amusingly, the Panther, with its high consumption of armor steel, which the Germans were straining to produce, complex suspension and other components that slowed manufacture and general oversizedness was bad on the strategic level. On the operational level it was bad because it had bad "fuel" range where fuel is a quaint euphemism for final drives (and petroleum distillates, but that's a minor matter in comparison). On the tactical level it finally shows its strengths and attains the lofty heights of mediocrity, since its visibility is bad, its ability to destroy enemy tanks is pretty good if it actually sees them (incidentally it's amusing to note that you missed a whole range of other things tanks do as part of a combined arms team, but the Panther was bad at them so it's not like they're remarkable), and its survivability is actually kind of decent from the right angle. From any other angle than like a sixty degree arc on the front, pretty much whatever can have a good chance of penetrating the sponsons which are full of ammunition, meaning one of the worst weaknesses on any tank is actually worse protected on the Panther than on its competitors. Neat!

For Arracourt, it's worth to recap the basics:
Germans had 262 AFV's, which included 107 Panthers and 75 Panzer IVs. The German Panzer brigades were total rookies, the German 11th Panzer Division was an experienced formation. The Americans had many fewer AFV's but they were all experienced by then, as the 4th Armoured had been in combat for months. So it wasn't a case of veteran Germans against rookie Americans. Another mistake is to say that air power played no part, as Americans did use tactical airpower from 21st September onwards and many German units had come under air attacks while marching towards the front even before the battle. It's also noteworthy that 5th Panzer Army lacked recon assets, meaning that the Panzer brigades with their Panthers advanced practically blind against the Americans.

Finally, for some reason, the Germans repeated the same attacks multiple times, instead of changing their operations plan.

Yeah the funny thing is the reason I brought up Arracourt in the first place. Everyone knows it was a ridiculous one-sided slaughter. But it's not that the Germans got their faces chewed off by well organized and equipped enemies, or the gap between the German formations and a modern unit (if it were that I'd bring up Dompaire, where the French did worse to the Germans), it's that when you look at the very few US losses, 12 of them, nearly half of them, came from an ambush laid by a German force based on the Pz IV, which killed six Shermans in the opening salvo and then was able to deal with the American maneuver well enough that they knocked out six more Shermans when the Americans gained better positions and re-engaged. None of the other actions in the first two days had the German forces reacting with such flexibility, and it's not an accident that they were in Panzer IVs. With Panthers, it was more like the column of Panthers that got hit for three of their number, and were re-engaged twice by the US tanks. They weren't able to mount an effective response to Shermans, in fact they were utterly defeated by tactical maneuver. It's not an accident that the ungainly tanks with very low capability to spot the enemy and react to him quickly died without being able to respond to the enemy.
 

plasticpanzers

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Here is an article on the replacement for the heaviest tank the French could obtain (the Sherman with a 76mm gun) as the
Allies would not provide 90mm. The ARL 44 which strangly had transmission problems....replacing 17 Panthers (total) in
one of the only 2 units in France equipped with them the 503rd RCC and the 6th Curassiers. Funny, these homemade tanks
only were in service from about 1949 to 1953...hmm...lasted as long as the Panther in French service tho new...

Operational history[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARL_44


The ARL 44s equipped the 503e Régiment de Chars de Combat stationed in Mourmelon-le-Grand and before the end of 1950 replaced seventeen Panther tanks used earlier by that unit. In service the ARL 44 was at first an unreliable vehicle: the brakes, the gear box and the suspension were too frail. A special improvement programme remedied most of these shortcomings. The ARL 44 made only one public appearance, ten vehicles participated in the Bastille Day parade on 14 July 1951. When the American M47 Patton became available, which type also had a 90 mm gun, they were phased out in 1953 and used as targets.[4] The rumour that most ARL 44s were exported to Argentina is unfounded.[9]

Three ARL 44s survive today. An ARL 44 can be seen in the Musée des Blindés in Saumur; another one at the 501st-503rd Tank Regiment, Mourmelon-le-Grand, a third is a wreck on the technical zone of the base of the 2nd Dragoon Regiment at Fontevraud.[10] It is relatively complete but the gun is dismounted from the turret.

Xthetenth

The Panther was not ungainly. It had very good cross country ability and the same gunsight system employed in all German tanks. It was
better offroad than the PZIV or the Sherman. The German Panthers in that battle were bushwhacked and never got their act together and
were tactically defeated, not because of the tanks they were in, but because they were outsmarted and suprised by the US tanks. I never
heard of a battle won by the M1 Garand over the KAR98 rifle or a battle lost over a US pineapple grenade over a German stick grenade.

To have folks base their argrements over what vehicles were in the battle causing the outcome is ludicrous.
 
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plasticpanzers

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Yeah, read the whole article. And France was at peace and there were only 60 of these tanks made. Makes fixing them
somewhat simple when your not being bombed, shelled, burntout. Not exactly a shinning example of tank design. The
turrets were not even in place til 1949 on tanks in storage from 1946. yeah, lot of road time there....

Another failure of failing to see the whole picture rather than picking and choosing history like chocolate from a box.
 

xthetenth

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Yeah, read the whole article. And France was at peace and there were only 60 of these tanks made. Makes fixing them
somewhat simple when your not being bombed, shelled, burntout. Not exactly a shinning example of tank design. The
turrets were not even in place til 1949 on tanks in storage from 1946. yeah, lot of road time there....

Another failure of failing to see the whole picture rather than picking and choosing history like chocolate from a box.

Says the guy cherry-picking one report during the war for the opinion of a few people in the intelligence community rather than the conclusions of the modern historical community, which has the benefits of such minor things as any reliable sources on what was going on on the other side of the front.

(Here's a hint: I was also referring to how Germany didn't manage it either)
 

plasticpanzers

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Says the guy who does not comprehend the information given therefore has false conclusions...

Life is not a box of chocolates....now where did I hear that....
 

plasticpanzers

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I provide a wealth of information on sites and books and articles on the 3 of the top tanks of WW2 and some folks constantly ignore
the masses of information sources to cherry pick items that are irrelevant or create issues (tanks that LOST battles) that never existed.

I have great confidence in my sources of information and on how I research, been doing it for 50 years. I cannot say the same for others
who do not take the time to look at entire picture but keep gazing at a single point. You will never get the right answers that way.

Figure it out.
 

plasticpanzers

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From Spelbergers 'Panzer IV and its variants' (yeah, I have this book too)
Page 152

Official German Army Comparison report:

Wa Pruf (B) 1/W-2b Hillersleben, March 23, 1944
Comparison of German tanks with the new Russian T34-85 and JS122 tanks

Panzer IV
Inferior to the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Panzer V
Is far superior to the T-34/85 for frontal fire, approximately equal for side
and rear fire, superior to the JS for frontal fire and inferior for side and rear
fire.

Tiger I with KwK 36
Is superior to the T-34/85 and inferior to JS-122

Tiger I with KwK 43
Is superior to both the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Tiger II
Is far superior to the T34/85 and the JS-122

/////Now, I realize that the German's and their own country's opinion of their own tanks is just because they are German fanboys but
again (and again) this goes to show that you must look at the entire picture. Germany was not unaware of the issues of the Panther.
That they planned an upgrade and an AAA tank were derailed because of the need to keep building more Panther Is. The plan was to
replace all PZIVs eventually and have panzer divisions of nothing but Panthers or Panther IIs. That they would have done a final drive
upgrade if given time is a obvious fact. The fact that they could not because of strategic issues (like being invaded) put something of
a cramp in that plan. The Panzer IV was at its end as a combat tank and being outclassed everywhere. It could not be upgraded any
more. The Panther was the obivous choice for Germany to go for and its weakness was not its design but just several components that
could be replaced. You cannot replace the missing armor on a Sherman or the aluminum block with 240hr lifetimes on a T34. Its not
to say that the Panther was perfect but it is certainly one of the top 3 MBTs of WW2.

I am going to get a copy of a book on German tanks as i believe some of the French report is based almost verbatim on Guderian's issue
with the Panther at Kursk which is a review of a unready tank rushed into battle untested and not a review of the tank in later service.
 
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plasticpanzers

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For T34 fans on the V-2-34 engine used for the T-34
from Kampfpanzer.de

"First Appearance: 1939
Country: USSR

The V-2-34 is a version of the V-2 adjusted for the usage in the famous T-34 tank. It was a V-12 cylinder liquid cooled DOHC diesel engine with a max power of 500 HP at 1.800 RPM. The engine has the same design and output as the base V-2, it just received adjusted hull mounting, fuel and cooling connectors, as well as a refined clutch. The V-2-34 features an aluminum alloy body and is meant to be mounted lengthwise in the vehicle hull. Two cylinder banks with 6 cylinders each were placed in an angle of 60 degrees. The pistons are linked to the central crank shaft by wrist connecting rods, which means that only six rods are directly connected to the crank shaft. This special design also results in a slightly lower stroke in both sides of the engine. The right side has a stroke of 186.7 mm and 180mm in the cylinders on the left bank.
The V-2-34 is a DOHC engine, which means two overhead camshafts for each cylinder bank, one controlling the input and one the output valves. Each cylinder is has two input and two output ones.
The engine uses a dry sump lubrication system. Before engine start, the loader of the tank has to manually pump oil from the main reservoir into the engine. Once the engine is started, a mechanical lubrication pump takes over, which presses the majority of the oil onto the crank shaft and the connected rods. A smaller part if fed into the cylinder heads on the camshafts.
One large cooling radiators is mounted on each side of the engine, each responsible for one cylinder bank.
Two box type air cleaners were mounted to the rear of the engine. Each cleaner contained a cyclic filter, as well as oil soaking metal mesh for fine cleaning. Cleaning performance of this design was extremely bad, resulting in the low service life time of the engine.
Starting of the engine was done with an electric starter, mounted at the engine rear on top of the transmission. An auxiliary starter based on pressurized air was also available. It was using air from one tank mounted in the hull front. The tank was not equipped with a compressor, which meant that the tanks had to be filled using an external system.
Before starting the engine, the cooling liquid and the engine oil had to be brought to a certain temperature. This was mainly due to the fact that the oil used had a very high viscosity at low temperatures. As there was no pre-heater installed, the crews had two ways to heat up the liquids. First of all, the liquids could be taken out of the engine and warmed externally. A more combat like way was the use of a small stove. It was placed under the hull and a door under the engine was opened. The heat and smoke of the engine was flowing thru the engine compartment, warming it up.
The V-2-34 was a new engine, which had a negative impact on the performance of the T-34. The engines produced during the first years and until about 1943, didn’t come with a lifetime as expected. Normally, the engine should be able to run for 100h without issues. But due to material and quality issues the engines often didn’t came that far. Continuous improvements during the war increased the life time of the engine constantly to values of 300h and beyond.
One has to keep in mind that the complete manufacturing was shipped behind the Urals in a couple of weeks, which is a masterpiece on its own."

///////////////////////

goes to show everybody had problems with their tank components.


///////////////////////

Report quoted in the Duprey Institute


Most people who read this forum are probably familiar with the assessment which the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland did on a T-34 and a KV-1 in 1942. A recent article by Boris Kavalerchik about the assessment appeared in the Russian-language magazine Voenno-Istoricheskiy Arkhiv, issue No. 1, 2006. I found a couple of things striking. First of all, and this is not the striking part, Kavalerchik says that contrary to popular opinion in Russia which holds that the T-34s which were sent to the US and England were intentionally not of the highest quality, in the spring of 1942 five T-34s were specially prepared using the highest quality parts at the Ural Tank Factory (UTZ), which at that time produced the best T-34s in Russia. These five tanks were better than regular T-34s. One was sent to the U.S., one to England, two to the front, and one to the Peoples Commissariat for Tank Production and can now be found mounted on a pedestal in the yard of the Central Museum of the Armed Forces in Moscow.

The striking part of the article, to me at least, is this part, which comments on Aberdeen’s finding that the T-34 broke down beyond repair after 343 kilometers due to dirt getting into the engine’s cylinders. Apparently this was very good!

“There was nothing unusual about a tank breaking down after such a short period. At that time T-34 tanks were guaranteed not to break down for 1,000 kilometers, but in practice this number was unattainable. According to a report by the Scientific Institute for Armored Equipment (NIBT) to Ya. N. Fedorenko, the chief of the Red Army’s Auto-Armored Directorate, the average distance a T-34 traveled before requiring overhaul (capital repairs) did not exceed 200 kilometers. The Aberdeen T-34 exceeded this.

In 1942 the quality of Soviet tanks had significantly fallen for many understandable reasons. These included the difficulty of reestablishing production by the evacuated factories at new locations, factories switching over to new production, the loss of many supply lines and sources of raw materials, a sharp drop in the average qualification of workers due to losses among experienced workers and the hiring of many new, inexperienced workers including women and teenagers. These new workers worked tirelessly and did everything they could for the front, but they were not qualified. Producing the most tanks possible was the priority, which was understandable since the heavy losses of the initial part of the year had to be made up. Therefore the requirement for quality was reduced, and the military accepted any tank that was built. As a result, in 1942 some 34’s could only go 30-35 kilometers before needing an overhaul.

To a certain degree this was justified because tanks, as a rule, did not survive until the expiration of its overhaul life, short as that was. The life of a tank on the front line was not long – on average 4-10 days (not counting time spent in transit on rail road and being repaired), or from 1-3 attacks. In 1942 the average mileage before being put out of service due to combat was 66.7 kilometers, which was less than half the average mileage before needing an overhaul. The majority of tanks simply didn’t live long enough to break down.

The V-2 diesel engine which equipped T-34s and KV-1s was still suffering growing pains. At that time its designers were struggling to extend the diesel’s service life to 100 hours, but in reality it seldom lasted more than 60. The engine of the T-34 which was tested at Aberdeen broke down at 72.5 hours, of which 58.45 were under load and 14.05 were while idling. The KV’s diesel lasted 66.4 hours. One of the deficiencies of the B-2, besides a short guaranteed life, was an increased fuel consumption (12% above norm), and, especially, a completely unacceptable over-consumption of oil, which exceeded existing norms by 3-8 times! Therefore the range of a T-34 in 1942 was limited not by fuel, but by oil: according to the averages at that time from the technical department of the People’s Commissariat for Tank Production, a T-34 carried enough fuel for 200-220 kilometers, but oil for only 145. At the same time German and American tanks didn’t require any additional oil; it was simply changed every 2,000 kilometers.”



[This message has been edited by Gary Dickson (edited 02-04-2006).]


///////////////////////////////////////

despite what folks may think of my posts I have always been impressed by the T-34 and its use against the Germans but
reality is what it is for ALL tanks in WW2.
 
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Klausewitz

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And yet the Panther never won a single battle against Shermans - which goes to show just how valuable that apparent range advantage was. Again, the key factors in tank vs tank combat are to spot the enemy first, to fire first, and to hit first, theoretical gun range turned out to be rather unimportant.
What would 'winning' a battle entail?
I am a bit sceptical as to the value of that assessment given that there were very few if any 'battles' were only Panthers and Shermans were on the field.
 

Poh

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Hmmm i cant find the sources but my two cents.

When we look at the Panther having reliability problems how do those compare to the other tanks of the Era? Ofcourse we know the PzIV or StugIII is more reliable. The Sherman is a reliability monster. But how did the t-34 fare? iirc i once read something about the t-34 having a rather short range before it broke down but that it didnt matter as they were normally destroyed in battle before that point. But i dont really remember where i read it.

Ofcourse looking at production numbers reliability was more a concern for the Germans. But i also recall a study of the Shermans being compared to the british Comet and Cromwell (i believe it was) which concluded that the british tanks had broke down more often/ needed more maintanence. The study was conducted over some days where the tanks had to travel a certain distance each day though they could be repaired underway. The Shermans arrived on time each day the mechanics and crew got the rest they needed etc. which wasnt the case for the british crews as they would mostly run late due to problems on the rute/having to work overtime during the night to fix the problems.

For best medium i would probably go for the Sherman (overall), PzIV (for staying relevant during the whole war). And if not looking at mediums the Tiger II (for the looks)
 

Klausewitz

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I said it before and say it again:
The T-34 was a mess.
All that was good about it was that it was mass-producable and that could (barely) hold itself against the German onslaught (the kill-ratios of the T-34 are abysmal and it does not have the advantage of having been lost in huge numbers in the opening of Barbarossa to make up for that statistic).
The T-34 is a good tank the same way a good infantryman is somebody who was quickly trained and can then stop bullets with his body or jam tank tracks with it.
Some of them might also come to shot at the enemy, but that is not the point.
The point of the t-34 is not good or execellent design and contruction, the point is playing the numbers.
Which it did well.
 

Darkrenown

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What would 'winning' a battle entail?
I am a bit sceptical as to the value of that assessment given that there were very few if any 'battles' were only Panthers and Shermans were on the field.

So perhaps the supposed main plus point to the Panther, "If it is tank destruction, it´s likely the Panther is better than either Sherman or T34 as it could kill both at ranges where itself couldn´t be killed." isn't that useful a feature, since battles aren't a lineup of tanks are their maximum range, exchanging shots. That was my point.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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And yet the Panther never won a single battle against Shermans - which goes to show just how valuable that apparent range advantage was. Again, the key factors in tank vs tank combat are to spot the enemy first, to fire first, and to hit first, theoretical gun range turned out to be rather unimportant.

I think this is rather a bad argument by you to make Dark, although I have agreed with most of what you have said.

The US used overwhelming force all the time, that was their strategy. Germans were always going to be outnumbered 2,3,4 to 1 and not be able to move because of air superiority.
 

bcoop1701

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So if I've understood what has been written so far, the original question posed is impossible (or at least prohibitively challenging) to answer. There are too many outside influences such as strategic and tactical doctrine, country of origin economic constraints, crew training and experience, etc. and each of the contenders has various strengths and flaws so that no one tank stands out turret and gun above the rest. Not that I'm saying that people should let it rest. I'm learning some good stuff and I have popcorn.
 

Darkrenown

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I think this is rather a bad argument by you to make Dark, although I have agreed with most of what you have said.

The US used overwhelming force all the time, that was their strategy. Germans were always going to be outnumbered 2,3,4 to 1 and not be able to move because of air superiority.

They actually didn't often outnumber German tanks by that much in a given battle, and most encounters were pretty small scale:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3VJRI...292X&nodeID=283155&store=books#wasThisHelpful
The real lessons of this book are delivered in the concluding sections on statistics and analysis. Contrary to what readers conditioned to war movies or computer games might expect, the author notes that actual statistical data indicates that most tank vs. tank battles were small, involving only 4-9 tanks on each side.

You could also look at the battle of Arracourt where outnumbered Shermans mopped the floor with Panthers in foggy conditions where airpower could not be used.
 

Darkrenown

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From Spelbergers 'Panzer IV and its variants' (yeah, I have this book too)
Page 152

Official German Army Comparison report:

Wa Pruf (B) 1/W-2b Hillersleben, March 23, 1944
Comparison of German tanks with the new Russian T34-85 and JS122 tanks

Panzer IV
Inferior to the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Panzer V
Is far superior to the T-34/85 for frontal fire, approximately equal for side
and rear fire, superior to the JS for frontal fire and inferior for side and rear
fire.

Tiger I with KwK 36
Is superior to the T-34/85 and inferior to JS-122

Tiger I with KwK 43
Is superior to both the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Tiger II
Is far superior to the T34/85 and the JS-122

You do understand that this comparison is just about armour/firepower, right? It's not an overall comparison of the tanks? Since no one at any point in the thread has said the Panther didn't have good front armour and a nice AT gun I don't know what you think you are proving.

I am going to get a copy of a book on German tanks as i believe some of the French report is based almost verbatim on Guderian's issue
with the Panther at Kursk which is a review of a unready tank rushed into battle untested and not a review of the tank in later service.

What possible reason would the French have to base their report of their use of Panthers on "Guderian's issue with the Panther at Kursk" rather than on their own 3 years of use? This has to be the craziest thing you have claimed yet, and that is saying something.

And the Panther's issues did NOT stop at Kursk, how about you go back and actually read my post #151, then explain why Guderian is still saying in mid-44 that an urgent solution to the final drive problem is needed, or why the Panzer Commision said in January 1945 that "Whereas during this entire time attempts have been made to improve the final drive, with only minimal improvement being noted.". Did you miss that post or do you just think US intel report during the war saying "The Panther seems pretty good!" superseded them?
 

Mjarr

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Official German Army Comparison report:

Wa Pruf (B) 1/W-2b Hillersleben, March 23, 1944
Comparison of German tanks with the new Russian T34-85 and JS122 tanks

Panzer IV
Inferior to the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Panzer V
Is far superior to the T-34/85 for frontal fire, approximately equal for side
and rear fire, superior to the JS for frontal fire and inferior for side and rear
fire.

Tiger I with KwK 36
Is superior to the T-34/85 and inferior to JS-122

Tiger I with KwK 43
Is superior to both the T-34/85 and the JS-122

Tiger II
Is far superior to the T34/85 and the JS-122

If we rephrase the question can the tanks kill the opposing tank from distance of roughly ~1000m frontally, we get yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. On the Russian side it's yes, yes if tricky\definitely yes with IS, yes, yes, and requires IS.

Of course how people view their opponents etc varies to person and their acquired data available back then (After all, even Napoleon himself said to beware the Prussian cavalry although with bit of hindsight it was perhaps overstated issue in the 1806 campaign contrary to their reputation), but when it boils down to by 1944 standards hot steel on steel action is practically guaranteed to wreck some plates on typical hit under specified ranges, how is 85mm Zis-3 superior to KwK40 L\48? Their performance was practically identical in sense the German 75mm penetrated just a tiny bit more against non-sloped surfaces and the Russian one had mild advantage against steeper angles due different nose design in their AP projectiles to begin with.

After all, I assume we're speaking on the subject with all the data and hindsight out there instead of what people back in the 1940s thought of it, even if we only touch upon armour and firepower.
 
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