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plasticpanzers

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Rather than fry nerves on the airDD thread i thought it would be good to start a seperate thread here for frying...

step right in, I'll add my .02 later...

..mmm gonna smell like bacon! :cool:
 

Novacat

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There is no best, the Sherman, T-34 and Panther are a pile of compromises and had its strengths and weaknesses.
 
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Kovax

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Best at what? Not all tanks were designed with the same primary role in mind. Some excelled at infantry support, others at tank-versus-tank combat, still others at maneuver. Still others were more reliable, or easier to produce for similar effectiveness, and so on.

In 1939, depending on what role you're after, a couple of French and Czech models look pretty decent. By the end of 1941, it's another story, with the German Panzer IV moving toward the top, while the Soviet T-34 may already be sitting on the throne. Once the major bugs are out of the Panther, it's looking pretty impressive in a tank-versus-tank role and quite maneuverable, but is less reliable and not spectacularly effective at supporting infantry, especially for the steep price.
 

Darkrenown

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Nope, I didn't read the french report and also don't think that it is very important.

Then why are you commenting on its contents? What is wrong with you? Why is your urge to defend the Panther so strong that you just made up reasons to dismiss the French report instead of just not commenting on it or admitting in the first place?

It doesn't add anything in the actual combat use of the Panther tanks between 1943-1945.

goalposts.jpg

Were the Panthers made from pumpkins by a witch and lost their Teutonic powers when the Nazi state collapsed?

Ok, you have found a book that has a different opinion. I like how the most helpful customer review for it on Amazon says it's bad and recommends the one I linked instead:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panther-Medium-Tank-1942-45-Vanguard/dp/1841765430/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
I don't like writing really bad reviews but I've got a public duty to warn anyone tempted to buy this book to take their money elsewhere. This book is a total waste of money. There is virtually nothing in this book that couldn't be found with google and 5 minutes reading. Its a mere 47 pages long including large numbers of very boring stock photos of captured panthers in factories. No combat snaps (although many of these exist elsewhere) and minimal description of combat.

Its filled with minor errors such as describing the Panther in the museum at Bovington as being built in 1945... it wasn't it was made in 1946 under the supervision of REME soldiers studying how the Germans built such a good tank. I know because there's a little brass stamp on the side of the tank saying as much. Its refers to a socket on the turret roof as being for the 'unrealised ambition to fit night sights' yet on the next page describes how the germans DID fit nightsights and refers you to another osprey book: panther variants for more detail! Clearly the editor didn't edit this terribly well. Its historic record that IR equipped Panthers saw action at least twice and the preserved Panther at Samur in France is IR equipped.

In addition its filled with errors by ommision such as the claim that Kampfgruppe Pieper which lead the offensive in the Ardnennes was a pure Panther unit: it wasn't. One of their King Tigers is still in the market place at La Glieze and it also repeats old wives tales such as the one that Peipers Panthers achieved total suprise over the americans by being lead without headlights through the night by grenadiers with white rags tied to to their rifles. Clearly the author has never HEARD a column of tanks!

A further problem I only noticed on a second read is that many of the photos (which are easily found on-line) have been brutally cropped down by Osprey. They show a picture of the command variant of the Panther but have cut the pic down so much you can't actually see the tops of the extra aerials which are the only external difference between this version of the tank and the standard model.

Finally its assesment of the overall superiority of the panther is wrong. The authors claim that only the JS-2 on the eastern front and the M26 pershing and allied 17lb anti-tank gun could defeat it on the western front. No mention what so ever of the Sherman Firefly- a tank armed with the 17lb anti-tank gun that was present in large numbers from the 6th of June 1944... unlike the M26 that barely arrived before the wars end.

If anyone is looking for a far better and more believable assessment of the Panthers REAL capabilities try this Panther vs Sherman: Battle of the Bulge 1944 (Duel) or for more depth this: Armored Thunderbolt: The Sherman Tank in World War II both by Stephen Zaloga. These both explain exactly how standard 75mm armed Shermans smashed Panthers on the battlefield.

If you have some minor curiosity about Panthers just look online. If you want a full history don't make the mistake I did and buy this book- spend £30 or £40 and get a definitive work, not a pamphlet.

(Also he's wrong about only 2 dozen panthers being used between the French and Bulgarian armies - France fielded two regiments of 50.)
 
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Dalwin

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I think the answer is much different depending on how you define best. If you are talking 1 on 1 with both tanks having made it to the battlefield, and you are talking for tank vs tank engagements (not tanks's primary role), then the answer might be (dare I say it) later model Panthers.

Now battles aren't fought 1v1 and involved a lot more than tank vs tank. Things like reliability and ease of construction should also be taken into account, since I don't care if your tank is 20% better if I can get 50% more of mine to the battle. Overall, I'd probably go with T-34.
 

unmerged(83175)

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There is no best, the Sherman, T-34 and Panther are a pile of compromises and had its strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, I agree.
The problem started when Podcat and Darkrenown keep insiting that the Panther was a bad and crappy tank, which ofcourse it wasn't.

Here is my repost.

It's cool if you want to comment on the French Panther report when you clearly haven't read it, but it makes you look pretty silly. Because the French report complains about things like it breaking down all the damn time and having poor target handoff, it doesn't compare it to T-54s.

I did not say you claimed any ratios for the Panther, I said, once again:
"The myth of German tank superiority almost always comes down to their claimed kills on the Eastern front"
and also that you need to examine the records of both sides to form an accurate picture of their real losses. It's not complex.

I never made any claim of the real ratio either, just that you cannot accept kill claims at face value. To give a non-Panther example, it was/is commonly thought that allied figher-bombers were devastatingly effective against German armour because pilots claimed so many kills that even when people assumed they were exaggerating a bit and dialed the numbers back they were still impressively high. But when historians finally looked in detail at the German records they found that hardly any tanks had been knocked out by aircraft. But for an actual book looking at the western front ratio of Shermans to Panthers:
http://books.google.se/books?id=SWw...an vs panther WWII&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=true
and we can look at this comment by R. A Forczyk:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3VJRI...292X&nodeID=283155&store=books#wasThisHelpful

Since the T-34 was in the same ballpark as the Sherman the loss ratio was probably similar, but I didn't find a good source in the short time I wanted to spend looking to back up a claim I didn't make.

Finally, I did not say guns and armour were trival, I said they were not as important as not breaking down all the time. You can clearly see that gun and armour are not the be all end all of tank warfare by the fact that Shermans weren't totally crushed by Panthers with such better stats, indeed they generally got the better result when they clashed. As Zaloga says, it was generally more important to have some tank than no tank, and in tank vs tank engagements the more important factor was spotting the enemy first, firing first, and hitting first rather than having the larger gun.

Edit: Sorry, SM, started this before you posted :(

Nope, I didn't read the french report and also don't think that it is very important.
It doesn't add anything in the actual combat use of the Panther tanks between 1943-1945.

You and Podcat said that the Panther was a bad and crap tank. It's not that I said that the Panther was the best tank ever... .
I even didn't start about kill ratio's. It something that you tried to use to to show that the Panther was a bad tank.

Also Zalago describes the encounter Panthers versus Sherman in the Bulge. As it is an Osprey book, I can post another quote of another osprey book. Panther Medium Tank 1942-45 (Vanguard Series) Published in 2003.
Saying that the Panther was an impressive tank it also points out that only two two dozen captured Panthers were used by the French and Bulgarian forces.

Written by:
DR STEPHEN A HART is senior lecturer in the War Studies department, at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. Prior to this he lectured in the International Studies Department at the University of Surrey, and in the War Studies Department, King's College London. He is the author of several popular histories of aspects of the German Army in World War II.



A tank's overall effectiveness is determined by the combination of five factors. The first is the vehicle's lethality - the penetrative capabilities of its main armament, its accuracy (determined chiefly by the quality of its optical equipment), and the number of rounds carried. The second factor is the tank's battlefield survivability - the degree of protection afforded by its armour. The third is the vehicle's mobility - its ability to move and manoeuvre at speed across various types of terrain, including the ability to cross bridges without them collapsing under its weight, as well as its ability to obtain a reasonable operational range from the fuel carried. The fourth is the tank's mechanical reliability, particularly that of its engine, transmission and suspension. The last factor is the financial and resource costs involved in producing the tank and then maintaining it in an operational state on the battlefield. When these criteria are considered, it is clear that the Panther was one of the best tanks of the Second World War. Undoubtedly, its most impressive aspect was its lethality. The 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 gun was a superb weapon, as attested to by the numerous 'kills' obtained in combat at even long range.
The gun carried three main types of ammunition - the PzGr.39/42 armour piercing ballistic-capped (APBC) round, the rare PzGr.40/42 tungsten AP shell, and the SprGr high explosive round. Firing the PzGr.39/42 and 40/42 rounds at the normal combat range of 1000m, the Panther could penetrate 111mm and 149mm-thick armour sloped at 30 degrees, enough to deal with virtually all enemy tanks. In addition, the Panther's excellent TFZ 12 or 12a telescopic sight permitted accurate targeting even at long range. This enabled the L/70 gun to achieve an impressive 97 per cent probability of hitting a target first time at 1000m with the PzGr.39/42 under normal combat conditions; indeed, even at the long range of 2500m, the Panther still obtained a 29 per cent first-hit probability with this round. The other chief strength of the Panther was its survivability, which rested mainly on its thick, well-sloped frontal armour. The Soviet T-34/85, for example, could only penetrate the Panther frontally at a range of 500m, whereas the 75mm-gunned Sherman M3A2 could not do so even at point-blank range. However, by 1944-45, new threats had emerged - notably the Soviet Josef Stalin and the American Pershing heavy tanks, plus the 17-pounder anti-tank gun - that proved capable of penetrating the Panther frontally at 1500m. The side and rear armour of the Panther, however, remained much more vulnerable, with most Allied tanks being able to penetrate these plates at ranges of 1500m or more. Significantly, with the exception of the JS and Pershing tanks, throughout its operational career, the Panther always proved capable of knocking out opposing tanks at ranges at which the latter were incapable of penetrating the Panther. The combination of potent firepower and impressive survivability might have made the Panther the most effective tank of the war.
However, Unfinished Panther tank hulls and Jagdpanther heavy tank destroyers can be seen on this production line at one of the five armament factories located in the Reich that manufactured the Panther tank. (The Tank Museum, 4049/C3)
Model G Panthers such as this vehicle spearheaded the advance made by Battle Group Peiper toward the Meuse bridges during the mid-December 1944 German Ardennes offensive. Note the absence of the driver's visor on the left hull glacis plate. (The Tank Museum, 6087/D1) it was less impressive in terms of mobility, reliability and cost; conse- quently, some scholars believe that the solid all-round performance of the Soviet T-34/85 tank gave it the edge over the Panther as the most effective tank of the war. For in terms of mobility, the Panther's performance was only reasonable. This 44.8-tonne tank had an unimpressive ground pressure of 0.735kg/cm2, remained relatively underpowered at 15.6bhp/tonne (with the 700bhp engine), and had an unimpressive cross-country range of only 100km.
The problems the bulky Panther experienced in confined terrain were aptly demonstrated, as we have seen, by the difficulties Peiper's tanks experienced in the Ardennes. In addition, the Panther was dogged by mechanical reliability problems throughout its career, even though by the time of the Model G these weaknesses had been ironed out to a significant degree.
Last, it should also be remembered that the Panther was a complex and sophisticated vehicle that proved both expensive and time consuming to produce - each tank took 2000 man-hours to complete - as well as to maintain in the field. The combination of these three factors served to undermine somewhat the superb lethality and impressive survivability delivered by the Panther. Nevertheless, it remains clear that the Panther medium tank was one of the most effective of the entire war, and its employment at the front undoubtedly enabled the German Army to resist over- whelming Allied pressure for significantly longer than would otherwise have been possible. Given this effectiveness, it remains surprising that after the end of the war, no more than two dozen captured Panthers saw service in other armies (such as the Bulgarian and French forces). Consequently, it would be fair to say that the impressive operational history of the Panther tank ended in the ruins of Hitler's supposed 1000-year Nazi Reich in May 1945.


---> The quote above is from Panther Medium Tank 1942-45 (Vanguard Series) Published in 2003.
Written by:
DR STEPHEN A HART is senior lecturer in the War Studies department, at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. Prior to this he lectured in the International Studies Department at the University of Surrey, and in the War Studies Department, King's College London. He is the author of several popular histories of aspects of the German Army in World War II.



The writer evalutes the Panther on 5 points:
Lethality - Battlefield survivability - Vehicle's mobility - Mechanical reliability - Financial and resource costs. His conclusion is that the Panther and certainly the Ausf G was one of the most effective tanks of the entire WWII.
 

plasticpanzers

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I have read the French report. Not impressive whatsoever.

Here is a review of the book Panther by Green by a customer. This, rather than Osprey, is more in line as what is described as a reference book:

Format: Kindle Edition Verified Purchase
This is a well written and wonderfully illustrated book with good diagrams and photos.
I liked the technical information regarding all aspect of the Panther's planning, development, teething problems, final product, successes and failures. The Panther was a sophisticated design well executed by skilled engineers and fabricators. The comparisons with the Sherman, T-34 and other tanks in actual combat were very eye opening. The photos and narratives from the actual British, American and Russian gun tests on captured Panthers showing the armour's condition after various hits by many types of tank and anti-tank guns are pretty conclusive as to the success of the Panthers design. The actual interviews of German tank crewmen and their experiances with the Panther against various enemy tanks and the interviews with British, American and Russian tank and anti-tank gun crew experiances against the Panther were very telling. Seeing in writing that the Allie's and Soviet tankers would have wished to have the Panther rather than their own tells a lot of the story of WWII tank warfare. Really a good reference book for any armour afficianado. This book has more original photos than I have ever found about the Panther.
 

Darkrenown

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I have read the French report. Not impressive whatsoever.

Here is a review of the book Panther by Green by a customer. This, rather than Osprey, is more in line as what is described as a reference book:

Format: Kindle Edition Verified Purchase
This is a well written and wonderfully illustrated book with good diagrams and photos.
I liked the technical information regarding all aspect of the Panther's planning, development, teething problems, final product, successes and failures. The Panther was a sophisticated design well executed by skilled engineers and fabricators. The comparisons with the Sherman, T-34 and other tanks in actual combat were very eye opening. The photos and narratives from the actual British, American and Russian gun tests on captured Panthers showing the armour's condition after various hits by many types of tank and anti-tank guns are pretty conclusive as to the success of the Panthers design. The actual interviews of German tank crewmen and their experiances with the Panther against various enemy tanks and the interviews with British, American and Russian tank and anti-tank gun crew experiances against the Panther were very telling. Seeing in writing that the Allie's and Soviet tankers would have wished to have the Panther rather than their own tells a lot of the story of WWII tank warfare. Really a good reference book for any armour afficianado. This book has more original photos than I have ever found about the Panther.

What was not impressive about the French report? In what way can you better judge the Panther's performance than the French soldiers serving in them?

What is this book you mention? Who is this customer? Why should we care that he/she was impressed by the number of pictures in said book?
 

plasticpanzers

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While I really like Osprey titles they are very, very light on information and are more of a book for newbies to get info on tanks and such.

There are a number of books on the subject of armor. Of the medium combat tanks I have always condsidered the Panther as the best
despite any shortcomings. You would be a fool to dismiss them and a double fool to not recognize the shortcomings in the T34 and the
Sherman.

The book Panther by Green has a good review here. There are a number of other references I am putting out feelers for right now from a
large number of contacts I have. Not only for the T34, which i greatly respect but the Sherman as well which is a home team favorite. You
have to balance the plus and minus of each design to get to a proper realization for their worth.

review of Panther by Green:

Format: Kindle Edition Verified Purchase
This is a well written and wonderfully illustrated book with good diagrams and photos.
I liked the technical information regarding all aspect of the Panther's planning, development, teething problems, final product, successes and failures. The Panther was a sophisticated design well executed by skilled engineers and fabricators. The comparisons with the Sherman, T-34 and other tanks in actual combat were very eye opening. The photos and narratives from the actual British, American and Russian gun tests on captured Panthers showing the armour's condition after various hits by many types of tank and anti-tank guns are pretty conclusive as to the success of the Panthers design. The actual interviews of German tank crewmen and their experiances with the Panther against various enemy tanks and the interviews with British, American and Russian tank and anti-tank gun crew experiances against the Panther were very telling. Seeing in writing that the Allie's and Soviet tankers would have wished to have the Panther rather than their own tells a lot of the story of WWII tank warfare. Really a good reference book for any armour afficianado. This book has more original photos than I have ever found about the Panther.
 

Mendeth

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I appear to have missed a significant, and possibly impressive, debate here. Nonetheless, with all due respect, you've quoted the opinion of one academic. I'd be quite willing to bet many dissenting opinions exist, as that is the nature of academia.

Moreover the segment you've quoted includes a number of factors that suggest the Panther was not the powerhouse you're claiming it to be. Indeed, the author you're quoting states it to be "one of the most effective". That does not equal the 'best'. Although you don't necessarily claim the Panther to be the 'best' per se, you are re-posting this conversation in a thread entitled 'best medium WW2 tank thread', indicating that you consider the Panther dominant above others.
 

unmerged(83175)

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Then why are you commenting on its contents? What is wrong with you? Why is your urge to defend the Panther so strong that you just made up reasons to dismiss the French report instead of just not commenting on it or admitting in the first place?



View attachment 115990

Were the Panthers made from pumpkins by a witch and lost their Teutonic powers when the Nazi state collapsed?

Ok, you have found a book that has a different opinion. I like how the most helpful customer review for it on Amazon says it's bad and recommends the one I linked instead:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panther-Medium-Tank-1942-45-Vanguard/dp/1841765430/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


(Also he's wrong about only 2 dozen panthers being used between the French and Bulgarian armies - France fielded two regiments of 50.)

You didn't write that user review? Who is the one who wrote the review? So his review is more worth than the book Dr Stephen A Hart wrote?
You are using the french report from 1947 to try to make your point that the Panther was a bad tank during WWII. Which it wasn't.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with me... thank you for asking:blink:.

I am not trying to say that the Panther is the best tank ever. I am just saying that it is not a bad tank as you and Podcat claimed.

Anyway there is a new thread if you want to continue this.
 

plasticpanzers

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French soldiers working in them are not Panther crewmen. The French army at that time is equipped with Sherman tanks and only had
a small number of Panthers. The crews were not homegrown trained on the Panther but transfered to them (FFI crewed many captured
first) from Sherman crews or TD crews. Of course they are not going to like to use a system different from that they trained in. German
forces were taught to use the systems they had just as much as others. German crews despised the optical and view system of the T34
Sherman crews were amazed at the quality of the German ones.

Where do you think those Panther crews went when the Panthers were phased out? Back to Shermans that they were trained on. The
Panthers used by France were gathered from all over from battlefields and are not factory fresh. Many were damaged or had breakdowns.
They were never used in combat by the French. They were used in training missions and i very strongly suspect were used as mobile
targets for the regular French crews in maneuvers, not as the aggressor. Repeat: They were not used by the French in combat.

As for my customer reference, Heck!, you put one up and I put up one with the Author, Title, and a customer review too. Or do you
think the reviewer/customer is a German patriotic minion who sadly has no access to the glorious and true reports of the USSR in the War
for the Motherland?

Fish or cut bait.
 

unmerged(83175)

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While I really like Osprey titles they are very, very light on information and are more of a book for newbies to get info on tanks and such.

There are a number of books on the subject of armor. Of the medium combat tanks I have always condsidered the Panther as the best
despite any shortcomings. You would be a fool to dismiss them and a double fool to not recognize the shortcomings in the T34 and the
Sherman.

The book Panther by Green has a good review here. There are a number of other references I am putting out feelers for right now from a
large number of contacts I have. Not only for the T34, which i greatly respect but the Sherman as well which is a home team favorite. You
have to balance the plus and minus of each design to get to a proper realization for their worth.

review of Panther by Green:

Format: Kindle Edition Verified Purchase
This is a well written and wonderfully illustrated book with good diagrams and photos.
I liked the technical information regarding all aspect of the Panther's planning, development, teething problems, final product, successes and failures. The Panther was a sophisticated design well executed by skilled engineers and fabricators. The comparisons with the Sherman, T-34 and other tanks in actual combat were very eye opening. The photos and narratives from the actual British, American and Russian gun tests on captured Panthers showing the armour's condition after various hits by many types of tank and anti-tank guns are pretty conclusive as to the success of the Panthers design. The actual interviews of German tank crewmen and their experiances with the Panther against various enemy tanks and the interviews with British, American and Russian tank and anti-tank gun crew experiances against the Panther were very telling. Seeing in writing that the Allie's and Soviet tankers would have wished to have the Panther rather than their own tells a lot of the story of WWII tank warfare. Really a good reference book for any armour afficianado. This book has more original photos than I have ever found about the Panther.

I appear to have missed a significant, and possibly impressive, debate here. Nonetheless, with all due respect, you've quoted the opinion of one academic. I'd be quite willing to bet many dissenting opinions exist, as that is the nature of academia.

Moreover the segment you've quoted includes a number of factors that suggest the Panther was not the powerhouse you're claiming it to be. Indeed, the author you're quoting states it to be "one of the most effective". That does not equal the 'best'. Although you don't necessarily claim the Panther to be the 'best' per se, you are re-posting this conversation in a thread entitled 'best medium WW2 tank thread', indicating that you consider the Panther dominant above others.

Well Darkrenown started with using Osprey books as a reference. I just took another osprey book to counter it.

Mendeth. I also don't think that the Panther was the best tank of WWII. The point is that the developers Darkrenown and Podcat are convinced it was a bad and crappy tank. Which ofcourse is not true.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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I've read that thread, and the other thread discussing this before. I don't remember them actually saying it was a crap tank, but that overall it wasn't as impressive as people have made it out to be.

The single biggest factor on the panther was the reliability, you cannot fight battles when your operational range is 100km or less before a major breakdown.

But if your on defense, a wall of armor and a extremely accurate long range gun is exactly what you need, but the panther simply wouldn't be able to spearhead any advance by the germans due to the reliability issues. It really became a defensive support tank, and if the germans would have been able to produce 2 or 3 times more of them then they did, then they could have held the line against USSR for much longer.
 

Bullfrog

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T-44
 

plasticpanzers

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Excellent source of booklets and hard reference books are in Pennsylvania at Schiffler Publishing (are you taking notes PI?)

Many 48 page pamplets but much more informative of vehicles and equipment including use of captured and how much was used.

On the Panther and T34 i recommend:

Panther Tank by Jentz
Panther by Spielberger (had this but sold it 10 years ago)
Panzertruppen (2) by Jentz (had this but sold it 5 years ago)
Russian tanks by Fleischer

Now PI might want to open their coin purses and buy some of these as i think they might help (as well as Panther by Green) but I would
suspect the names of the authors might have them in arms. Schiffer! Jentz! Fleischer! Spielberger! There all German names!! Aiii!!

Fear not. These are technical and historical reference not nazi propaganda. They even have a nice series on the Churchill, a long over-
looked tank.

The Panther tank is hit for its reliabilty but remember in late 44-45 repair factilities were getting almost non-existant. tanks were shipped
back to factories as it was faster than fixing them in the field. Also the T34 has a much poorer track record reliablity-wise then is supposed
in the propaganda of the time. The Sherman was very reliable as long as you had the proper engine for the Mark used if needed.
 

Darkrenown

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You didn't write that user review? Who is the one who wrote the review? So his review is more worth than the book Dr Stephen A Hart wrote?
You are using the french report from 1947 to try to make your point that the Panther was a bad tank during WWII. Which it wasn't.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with me... thank you for asking:blink:.

I am not trying to say that the Panther is the best tank ever. I am just saying that it is not a bad tank as you and Podcat claimed.

Anyway there is a new thread if you want to continue this.

I just wondered, since when a reasonable person is asked about a source they haven't read they either go read it or say they haven't read it, they don't assume what it contains and dismiss it based on what they have imagined it says. With your reading problems it's hard to tell. For example, please show me where I said the review is more valuable than the book, because that's not what saying you like something means, and it would be a lot easier to talk to you if you'd stop pretending I said things other than what I actually said. It's just a funny coincidence that the source you happened to pick to disagree with me, which you didn't link (I linked the review I quoted, so if you wonder who posted it you can click on it and be taken there to read all about it) happened to have been judged a worse book than one I linked by the majority of its reviewers on amazon.

Phew you explained perfectly what I tried to say about the french report in my gibberish English.

Thank you.;)

So you did read it or you didn't? Make up your mind.
 
Last edited:

plasticpanzers

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I'm sorry? You talk about pumkins, witches, and a quote from an Amazon.com book review and complain when i quote from an Amazon.com
book review (actually one of about 5 and all pretty much the same on the book). I have read the French report I have read enough and have
studied enough on the Panther to have a very solid basis for my beliefs. And its not based upon witches, pumkins, crap, or poor research by
some folks in Scandanavia whom will remain unnamed (cough).

I have had 50 years to sift thru and review and read and have enough understanding from Allied, Axis, and Soviet sources to be perfectly at
home in stating the Panther is one of the best combat tanks of WW2. You have provided nothing that opposes that with any clarity. Every
tank has a bad day, the Panther is no different.
 

unmerged(83175)

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I'm sorry? You talk about pumkins, witches, and a quote from an Amazon.com book review and complain when i quote from an Amazon.com
book review (actually one of about 5 and all pretty much the same on the book). I have read the French report I have read enough and have
studied enough on the Panther to have a very solid basis for my beliefs. And its not based upon witches, pumkins, crap, or poor research by
some folks in Scandanavia whom will remain unnamed (cough).

I have had 50 years to sift thru and review and read and have enough understanding from Allied, Axis, and Soviet sources to be perfectly at
home in stating the Panther is one of the best combat tanks of WW2. You have provided nothing that opposes that with any clarity. Every
tank has a bad day, the Panther is no different.

He is talking about me;).
Anyway it's time for me to retreat as my English is not good enough to engage in such a complex discussion.
 
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