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unmerged(400937)

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I was always more the type to want to destroy the opposing fleet entirely and then attack the planet from a cushy position, unless I brought a long a siege driver to just make it all hell for people.

But the more I think of it, the more I think Liir and Morrigi would use biological weapons more than a siege driver.

this has been a bit of a controversial choice; a lot of people seem to like the brawler-style engagements, the meatgrinder of SOTS 1. the growth here is in the depth of options; while you can still engage, it will require the means to bring them to bay; faster ships, like the battleriders or pursuit sections (if they still exist) to harry them, capturing the path they travel behind them and spreading your fleet out to capture other areas of the system over a turn or two til they are penned in one possible starting point, letting them run while you kill something else, that kind of thing.

---

Yes, but imagine 8 Gravitons on one point... it seems that would rupture all the armor from my mathematics.

---

yes, indeed. even with armour techs, you can certainly hurt a Leviathan. but destroy it? it's gonna have thick armour bars, lots of structure. even a solid cutting beam assault is gonna be hoping for a lucky critical to do anything significant, at least at first. they're not intended to be unsupported, though; with their guns, and their fleet support, that kind of concentrated assault is going to be hard to deliver.

To me, Drones are just a way of forcing an enemy to deal with rapidly moving phasers from multiple locations and thus dedicating ships to point defense (wish drones had shields or avoidance factors) and less to combat. Battle Riders while entirely ugly for almost all cases, are a way of striking harder and forcing to focus on medium weapons to deal with those.

drones are reconaissance capable in a fairly impressive way, fast and capable of mounting a quick strike on light targets running a screen against that kind of tactic (since you will get more drones per command point than BRs). Battleriders have multiple functions; some are clearly strike-capable, such as the Liir interceptor which is very fast and has three forward-fixed medium mounts, while others are intended for anti-drone and anti-missile (these long-range weapons are going to be more important; there's a reason missiles have more options now...) work, with many small turrets to cover a fleet, or for anti-BR duties, mounted with medium mounts on turrets.

they have the capacity to add to your power-per-command-points, and when paired with battleships or battlecruisers would be capable of fielding an impressive strike force. your opponent cannot engage just one of your groups, so is forced to split his attention. they also have the capacity to force him in; by repeatedly striking and fleeing over several turns, you can wear down a fleet that tries to stay out of range of your main force. bear in mind combat is intended to take multiple turns now, this is not an accident.

I don't view them as ways to sacrifice them while they attack a planet, I'm... more a slow expansion but hardened defense player.

Hivers, right? you're gonna have big wedges of fleet driving in at a single target; this works exceedingly well if you can smash the enemy, but if the enemy can smash you, it's gonna lose you a fight. tactical adaptability; you have the options. a solid fleet punch with a battlerider screen is going to force the enemy to engage you with a serious fleet; this has excellent consequences for your ability to defend the gate from what's left. he can't spare the ships. but if he outnumbers you in command points, or system defense boats? your fleet has to be split to defend the gate, which means he can split his fleet to attack it, tie up your fleet with a small force while striking for the gate with long-range firepower or a concentrated assault from the other side. it'll be costly. so why not use your battlerider screen to give him something else to worry about, driving for his system defense installations, forcing him to further split his fleet while allowing you to keep all your lovely dreadnoughts in the fight? use BRs and drones to prevent reconaissance flights from finding your gate?

there's this spatial control mechanic and elements of force projection that have become important in these new, larger tactical maps. it's a whole different ballgame from SOTS 1.






EDIT: point regarding multiple turn combats; turns are no longer years. check out your admiral age counters.
 
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unmerged(374275)

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+1 for anaris's post - explains clearly the new interactions. Systems can be very big, and the ability to send in hunting parties of very fats battleriders to attack other assets, not the planet and main fleet, opens up some interesting options. While the main fleets engage you can strike CnC ships with a battlerider wave from behind, send the Battleriders out to take down infrastructure such as mining stations, ships, and trade ships, a focussed strike on a station to take it down while the enemy concentrates on your main fleet....
 
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Nope, my philosophy for expansion is not determined by my race.

Morrigi and Liir are my focuses.

---

So here's how I play:

I stick to larger ships, it's just my style, so the Dreadnoughts and (eventually Leviathan) pop in, releasing their battle riders and a slew of drones. I develop my fleets into split forces so two forces are now heading off to engage targets of opportunity. By the time I've encountered resistance I always dual prong the enemy with the second force reassembling it into one and continuing forth. The thing about me though is that my tactic provides focus on a reinforcement fleet.

What I mean by this, is that while my forces are cleaning up whatever is there with drones and battleriders in mass and phasers slashing against ships like a ballet, the full force hasn't actually arrived yet. While my forces are more than capable of making them scurry for defenses and taking out targets and stations, I usually leave the economy alone as I know that once the other third of my fleet which I call the "assault segment" arrives, the whole fleet will reorganize into one and also be capable of splitting into three sections of higher firepower as the last segment ALWAYS contains whatever I think the best counter to the enemies forces will be and yet I keep it in reserve (a turn behind usually in the way I send off fleets) so as to not give them any clue as to what I've got in store. You might think this would leave me in a weaker position but the whole point is to determine my enemies fighting strength and engage in strike attacks against targets at the same time as making certain no ship is severely damaged (hence why cruisers in SOTS 1 with shields were my focus) and that I lose none.

The Morrigi allow for even more drones and that supplements my forces to be able to attack without even actually being there. If point defense is a focus then the reserve segment is ALWAYS a break-through force.

Since planets aren't usually a problem for me once everything else is dead, I deal with them later.

Yes my attacks take a bit longer, but by the time I'm done I've got it nearly locked down and have more than enough funds for a complete build up at that planet. I may act somewhat like the Hivers with my philosophy, but I've never seen it fail and I have enough tricks to make people unable to read my future tactics.
 
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unmerged(400937)

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ah, Morrigi makes sense. surprised by the Liir (it's all about cloaked biowar ships). still, the points stand.
 

unmerged(400937)

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Liir for the tech bonus - Liir ships can get very tough with the right armour researched :) and usually share with Morrigi the best tech chances in the game :)

SHARE with Morrigi? pfft. Liir tech chances are the best, and Morrigi only research at the same rate as humans. the Morrigi just have a few specific areas they excel at, like gravity techs.

Delsana; i wouldn't worry about it seeming like Hiver tactics; that's unashamedly Morrigi. they're all about hiding your strength, letting nobody know what you have... then sweeping out of the dark with those ridiculous full speed bonus dreadnought fleets.
 
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Not sure what full speed bonus dreadnought fleet means, but yeah.

I just wish our drones were capable of living longer... in SOTS 1 my Dreadnoughts (cruiser drones were weak and pathetic in terms of number and power of cruiser lost) destroyed other dreadnoughts with the drones before my ships even got close to them.
 

unmerged(400937)

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Not sure what full speed bonus dreadnought fleet means, but yeah.

flock effect. those sixty ship twenty something ly/turn endgame fleets.

I just wish our drones were capable of living longer... in SOTS 1 my Dreadnoughts (cruiser drones were weak and pathetic in terms of number and power of cruiser lost) destroyed other dreadnoughts with the drones before my ships even got close to them.

i think you're the only person who had any success with them, most people hated them after the early game. they seem to be falling into a recon role now, rather than strike, because BRs fill that role.
 
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Well a few jets can destroy a carrier with proper targeting or heavy penetration weapons or damaging the engines or turbines.

So strikecraft should definitely be capable, and have some type of defense, maybe harder armor or some sort.
 

Ruanek

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Well a few jets can destroy a carrier with proper targeting or heavy penetration weapons or damaging the engines or turbines.

So strikecraft should definitely be capable, and have some type of defense, maybe harder armor or some sort.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be powerful and all. But when it comes down to it, this is a game. And most people wouldn't be happy with the balance if they lost a Death Star to a mere X-Wing (or you could insert a more appropriate SOTS example in). Carriers shouldn't automatically be the best end-game option just because we want strike craft to be capable.
 

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Looking at this conversation, it seems:

1. End game combat will be decided by leviathan-led fleets, supported by dreadnoughts and perhaps cruisers. Small maps though, may not make it this far.

2. The role of battle riders and drones is yet undecided, but on paper, they look (especially the Liir/prestor DNs) like they have a lot of potential.

3. Leviathan to leviathan and leviathan versus dreadnought performance is crucial.

4. Morrigi and Liir will retain their positions from SOTS 1 as the dominant end game sides, although the Morrigi LV isn't that powerful. The Liir LV is undecided. We do not know how practical deploying Suul'ka or the Black will be.

5. Ability to concentrate multiple mounts on a single target directly in front or to the sides is critical, especially for LVs with their slow turning speeds.
 

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Yeah but we've no idea how powerful it really is.

he said we didn't know "how practical deploying Suul'ka... will be". they're very practical to deploy, i can tell you, at least at first. i hear rumours that you have to build their armour, which might delay the deployment.
 

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he said we didn't know "how practical deploying Suul'ka... will be". they're very practical to deploy, i can tell you, at least at first. i hear rumours that you have to build their armour, which might delay the deployment.

How powerful though is a Suul'ka at that point without it's armor?
 

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i honestly couldn't say, didn't play any further (a patch came out so i restarted). i only had one, Thundering Fists, and i didn't see him in combat; but he's powerful enough as a telekinetic to travel fast and far through folded space, so i would imagine he comes with telekinetic attacks even without his armour, so not useless.

also, he can be relocated to any star, which when coupled with his ability to gather Zuul to himself and take them along for the ride, is potentially very interesting.
 

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1. Seems that DN's is still where most of the combat will be at. Their specialized nature will be critical for the LV's more generic firepower centered combat. LV's seems better for supporting a fleet then jumping into the fray (except the Hiver LV).
2. Can't wait for this feature because otherwise the Morrigi LV is seriously out classed by the other races DN's.
3. Seems like DN's will be able to handle a unsupported LV with ease, especially when shields get implemented.
4. Morrigi LV seems to be a stand off LV. Since it comes with a ton of drones and Battle Riders and has pre-equiped Projectors. Plus its very fast compared to other races LV's.
5. Only a couple of races look like their LV's could jump into the middle of a battle and bring massive firepower to bear in two broadsides (Zuul and Hiver). The Humans and Tarkas look morel like keeping your enemy dead ahead is primary. Morrigi and Liir seem to be aimed at standing back and sniping rather than joining the fray.

Of course this is my initial assessment with a bunch of missing features. I am sure once armor, shields, and drones get added that tatics will change drastically.