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Henry IX

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Rommel was a sufficiently good general to create a mirage of possible German victory in North Africa, which both the British and the Germans belived. Whether he was a great general or not largely comes down to whether you think that achieving that was a great outocme or a great waste of resources. To my mind he deserves censure for wasting material Germany could not afford in a campain that Germany could not win to gain a goal that Germany did not need and could not use. That being said, Rommel was one of the best divisional commanders of the war and would have been a great asset if he had a commander that could manage him, rather than leaving him in charge to chase his mirages.
 

Gil galad

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Andrew Roberts has some very interesting works where he links the capacity of the allies operational strength directly to the number of available landing craft (to supply the armies).

I daren't think about the abysmal state of the German/Italian military in that regard!

Indeed, the whole Axis war effort was run on shoestrings from the Atlantic to Russia and From Africa to Norway. The Axis where lucky to be able to do what they did in real life on their logistical and administrative establishement. The ease in which the axis are able to move divisions to Africa and Malta in this thread isn't compatible with the real life.
 

Von Faulkenstein

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Stressed his supply lines? In the entire war, Germany produced about 350K trucks ... approximately 70k of those were lost in the North African campaign. That is 20% of the German military's mobility thrown away on a campaign that would have had little impact on the wider war, supplying an overstretched army that should really have built up static defences.
Lost because Hitler simply refused to make this theatre the priority after it became clear that the British were not going to capitulate. He did not shift sufficient forces here at any point during the war, not in the air, on land or by sea. The African group of German formations was always operating on a shoestring of resources, secondary to Barbarossa even before that campaign materialised. Build up static defences? In a region of Allied strategic superiority? Hardly. That is what ended up happening historically after the Second Battle of Alamein and became a complete waste of resources and manpower. Every static German-Italian position in Libya and then Tunisia was destroyed by the cautious, systematic Montgomery, who because he had been afforded so much time and space could turn the battle into one of attrition, which Rommel was never going to win.

Any kind of early German success here would've altered the course of the war, but probably not its outcome all other things being equal. Italy would've been safe from initial attack until 1944/45 at least. It is remarkable, and indicative, that the very concentration the W. Allies established in this theatre enabled them to transition very quickly to attacking Italy, taking just 8 months between victory at second Alamein and landing in Sicily.

Such as making sure the British dont send troops away from Egypt to Greece and Madagascar? All these scenarios that say if only XYZ had been different and then ignore the fact that people made choices because of XYZ... they are very foolish.

There is a reason that nobody but Rommel thought attacking was a good idea.
Well, there was an opportunity after Operation Compass for the British to liquidate what remained of the Axis forces in North Africa and cut short that entire see-saw campaign, instead of trying to prop up Greece, which was foolish. But in any case an actual commitment would have sufficed instead of the reigning attitude that any theatre other than the east was of secondary importance. The very fact that Hitler waited until 1941, even though the British had a presence here since the start of the war, before deciding to send troops, is representative of that attitude. He might be forgiven somewhat for thinking the Italians would put up a decent fight, outnumbering the British as they did, but it's bizarre that he didn't consider sending German units anyway.

But of course, what else could Rommel do? If he sat there and waited, he merely invited the British to build on serious strategic superiority. They had zones of control all over this region, and their lines of supply were almost totally unharmed while they held both Gibraltar and Suez, and to a tertiary extent, Malta. Moreover, the Italians were already being slowly but surely destroyed in East Africa and, after Compass, would never again be an effective fighting force in this theatre. And so he could only throw his forces immediately into the attack in order to throw the British off-guard, with a forceful attempt at Bewegungskrieg. It failed but not for lack of trying - additional formations and the proper application of air power would have averted the need to siege Tobruk, and Alamein would've fallen first time around.
 

keynes2.0

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Well, there was an opportunity after Operation Compass for the British to liquidate what remained of the Axis forces in North Africa and cut short that entire see-saw campaign

Not unless the British had a truck which runs on sand instead of oil.

The real world is not a video-game.
 

Von Faulkenstein

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To my mind he deserves censure for wasting material Germany could not afford in a campain that Germany could not win to gain a goal that Germany did not need and could not use.
This is simply false. It only became a waste of material after the fact - because OKH would not give his campaign what it needed in the first place. They did not adopt Raeder's plans for attaching a strategic focus to the Med and nor did they attempt to keep enough pressure on the WDAF by rotating more Fliegerkorps through airbases in theatre. They did not even bother to send enough additional land forces until it was far, far too late, even though the supply equation had already changed because a large proportion of Italian formations were under-strength after the surrender at Beda Fomm and consequently required fewer supplies. Whether the ME and its oil was a goal Germany needed and could or could not use is really besides the point; without that holy grail connection of Gibralta-Malta-Suez, the British have no means of sustaining their position in North Africa. But Hitler, very much lacking in the military arts, did not understand this and so did not accord the appropriate importance to the campaign.

Not unless the British had a truck which runs on sand instead of oil.
No they had sufficient forces and supplies in place, the problem was that politicians demanded they divert several formations to Greece. It would have been far quicker and far less wasteful, especially now with advance ports under their control, to simply refit their formations and resume the offensive ASAP against totally inferior Axis forces (at this point about four Italian divisions and a light German division). Remember it took 3 months from late January to deploy the entire Afrika Korps. Caution, and idiotic political decision-making, defeated the British at this stage.
 

Gil galad

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This is simply false. It only became a waste of material after the fact - because OKH would not give his campaign what it needed in the first place. They did not adopt Raeder's plans for attaching a strategic focus to the Med and nor did they attempt to keep enough pressure on the WDAF by rotating more Fliegerkorps through airbases in theatre. They did not even bother to send enough additional land forces until it was far, far too late, even though the supply equation had already changed because a large proportion of Italian formations were under-strength after the surrender at Beda Fomm and consequently required fewer supplies. Whether the ME and its oil was a goal Germany needed and could or could not use is really besides the point; without that holy grail connection of Gibralta-Malta-Suez, the British have no means of sustaining their position in North Africa. But Hitler, very much lacking in the military arts, did not understand this and so did not accord the appropriate importance to the campaign.


No they had sufficient forces and supplies in place, the problem was that politicians demanded they divert several formations to Greece. It would have been far quicker and far less wasteful, especially now with advance ports under their control, to simply refit their formations and resume the offensive ASAP against totally inferior Axis forces (at this point about four Italian divisions and a light German division). Remember it took 3 months from late January to deploy the entire Afrika Korps. Caution, and idiotic political decision-making, defeated the British at this stage.

They where refitting after compass, the British hadn't the equipment in the middle east at that time to do it quicker. For the advance to begin from Al Agheila to Tripoli would have taken at least a couple of months even without the Greek campaign. The equipment of the whole WDF had to be replaced because it was worn out.
 

Avernite

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Lost because Hitler simply refused to make this theatre the priority after it became clear that the British were not going to capitulate. He did not shift sufficient forces here at any point during the war, not in the air, on land or by sea. The African group of German formations was always operating on a shoestring of resources, secondary to Barbarossa even before that campaign materialised. Build up static defences? In a region of Allied strategic superiority? Hardly. That is what ended up happening historically after the Second Battle of Alamein and became a complete waste of resources and manpower. Every static German-Italian position in Libya and then Tunisia was destroyed by the cautious, systematic Montgomery, who because he had been afforded so much time and space could turn the battle into one of attrition, which Rommel was never going to win.

Any kind of early German success here would've altered the course of the war, but probably not its outcome all other things being equal. Italy would've been safe from initial attack until 1944/45 at least. It is remarkable, and indicative, that the very concentration the W. Allies established in this theatre enabled them to transition very quickly to attacking Italy, taking just 8 months between victory at second Alamein and landing in Sicily.
But, would Mussolini have let the Germans help before his own attempts turned into such a disaster? He seems to have been obsessed with showing he had a real Great Power at his command, too, and getting the Germans to help you against a pathetic British force isn't very great.
 

DoomBunny

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But, would Mussolini have let the Germans help before his own attempts turned into such a disaster? He seems to have been obsessed with showing he had a real Great Power at his command, too, and getting the Germans to help you against a pathetic British force isn't very great.

Or, more importantly, would Hitler have even had the idea?
 

Von Faulkenstein

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They where refitting after compass, the British hadn't the equipment in the middle east at that time to do it quicker. For the advance to begin from Al Agheila to Tripoli would have taken at least a couple of months even without the Greek campaign. The equipment of the whole WDF had to be replaced because it was worn out.
True, they did require time to refit. But taking two ANZAC divisions and an armoured brigade out of the line was very much a mistake, and certainly contributed to Rommel being so quick to reverse the progress made during Compass. At the very least they could have kept those formations, re-organised and attempted to pin the Axis forces in their ZOC, while making every effort to refit while the Afrika Korps was still in the process of being transported.

But, would Mussolini have let the Germans help before his own attempts turned into such a disaster? He seems to have been obsessed with showing he had a real Great Power at his command, too, and getting the Germans to help you against a pathetic British force isn't very great.
Ah, that is the six million dollar question. Doubtless Il Duce would have protested heavily to any German movements prior to their request but Hitler was the more forceful personality, and had the better military forces to boot, so I see little reason why he could not have put Mussolini in his place, even if by sheer force of logic ("the British must be fought wherever they are!"). Then again, I suppose logic within the twin dictatorships was a matter of debate even at this early stage, and Hitler probably saw no positives to embarrassing his closest ally.

Or, more importantly, would Hitler have even had the idea?
Very plausibly not. Every theatre took a backseat to the one that was about to be unleashed in the east, and that would carry on for the foreseeable future, and the historical record shows that he was not convinced by the need to tackle the British in North Africa, in what was the latter's highest strategic priority at this stage of the war against the Axis. Turned out to be a big strategic mistake, I reckon.
 

Gil galad

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True, they did require time to refit. But taking two ANZAC divisions and an armoured brigade out of the line was very much a mistake, and certainly contributed to Rommel being so quick to reverse the progress made during Compass. At the very least they could have kept those formations, re-organised and attempted to pin the Axis forces in their ZOC, while making every effort to refit while the Afrika Korps was still in the process of being transported.

This isn't realistic given the commitments of GHQ Middle east. The two ANZAC divisions didn't have their full TO&E nor was there the equipment to complete them. Which armoured Brigade?
 

Gil galad

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they nevertheless failed to achieve anything in Greece

GOCinC Middle East had political masters in London, who directed him to aid the Greeks, it's not like a wargame. The rational military decision, with hindsight would have been to finish the Italians in North Africa. But one also has to remember that the destruction of the Italians in Cyrenaica hadn't been foreseen. You can't blame the British for sitting back after achieving a victory well beyond the aims of the initial operation. The decision to halt at Al Agheila was rational from a logistical and administrative viewpoint, WDF hadn't a vehicle left that could reach Tripoli.
 

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GOCinC Middle East had political masters in London, who directed him to aid the Greeks, it's not like a wargame. The rational military decision, with hindsight would have been to finish the Italians in North Africa. But one also has to remember that the destruction of the Italians in Cyrenaica hadn't been foreseen. You can't blame the British for sitting back after achieving a victory well beyond the aims of the initial operation. The decision to halt at Al Agheila was rational from a logistical and administrative viewpoint, WDF hadn't a vehicle left that could reach Tripoli.
but wouldn't the 2 divisions and 1 brigade they sent to Greece stop the axis counterattack?
 

Gil galad

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but wouldn't the 2 divisions and 1 brigade they sent to Greece stop the axis counterattack?

Al Agheila wasn't defensible, the British knew this and intended to fall back if a counterattack happened as it did in real life. Could those extra divisions have stopped Rommel, I don't know. Maybe if they had their full complement of equipment and vehicles. Still supplies would have been difficult, Cyrenaica Command was at the end of the British supply line.
First armoured Brigade hadn't acclimatised to the desert, nor had they any experience in the Desert. The only formation of the Greek expeditionary force that had desert experience was the 6th Australian. 2nd New Zealand Division also didn't have any real experience in desert fighting.
 

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Al Agheila wasn't defensible, the British knew this and intended to fall back if a counterattack happened as it did in real life. Could those extra divisions have stopped Rommel, I don't know. Maybe if they had their full complement of equipment and vehicles. Still supplies would have been difficult, Cyrenaica Command was at the end of the British supply line.
First armoured Brigade hadn't acclimatised to the desert, nor had they any experience in the Desert. The only formation of the Greek expeditionary force that had desert experience was the 6th Australian. 2nd New Zealand Division also didn't have any real experience in desert fighting.
they would have to fall back, but would they not have fallen back past tobruk (into Egypt) if they had those formations in Cyrenaica instead of Thessaloniki?
 

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What if when the pact of steel was signed a German military mission had of become the de facto Italian high command?

Would a year or so been able to concentrate the Italian forces in better positions and perhaps be ready to launch operations for Malta and North Africa?
 

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What if when the pact of steel was signed a German military mission had of become the de facto Italian high command?

Would a year or so been able to concentrate the Italian forces in better positions and perhaps be ready to launch operations for Malta and North Africa?
This was how the German forces had originally been structured when sent; this only changed with Rommel's arrival and the formation of Panzer Group Africa (later Panzer Army Africa). Officially, indeed, I believe that Panzer Army Africa was also subordinated to the Italian high command in the person of General Gariboldi. I suspect it would not have made much difference to Rommel; he demonstrated a willingness to exceed orders and hare off on offensive operations during the Battle for France, and I do not believe that his behavior in Africa would be any different unless he was either kept very firmly leashed or assigned elsewhere. In particular, his historical offensive against the British flew in the face of orders from both the Italian high command and the German OKW. For a defensive footing in North Africa in preparation for later offensives, what you need to do is send an officer willing to be subordinated.

EDIT:
That said, if the Germans and Italians do not take the offensive immediately, I suspect the British would have had time to consolidate their positions. Rommel caught the British unprepared at Mersa al-Brega, where they were still preparing defensive works. Depending on timing, the North African forces may also be reinforced in the interim, though without the historical failures, Wavell may not be relieved as early as he historically was.
 
Last edited:

Gil galad

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they would have to fall back, but would they not have fallen back past tobruk (into Egypt) if they had those formations in Cyrenaica instead of Thessaloniki?

Those formations would be pretty useless if they didn't have the equipment to fight in the desert. The fact is that none of the forces under Cyrenaica command where ready to receive a counterattack at the time. GHQ Middle east did expect a counter offensive to start in may by which time I. Australian Corps would be ready, with the by then fully equiped and acclimatised 2nd armoured division. Just having the formations of the greek expeditionary force available doesn't mean you are able to use them effectively. Certaintly not in Cyrenaica at that time.
 

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In my opinion it would have to be Rundstedt, considering he was also adept at maneuvering the political sphere as well as the military. Not only was he a world war 2 veteran, but a World War 1 officer, like most of the High Command.
 

chepaeff

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He did not shift sufficient forces here at any point during the war, not in the air, on land or by sea. The African group of German formations was always operating on a shoestring of resources, secondary to Barbarossa even before that campaign materialised
Because it was severely limited by logistics? You can't just cram more stuff if infrastructure can't support it. The limitations for DAK support are obvious: Italian navy's splendid performance, and the lack of good roads or railway in Libya. Even if navy does its job, the issue of delivering it to front-line is still there.