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Pyoro

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Generals just don't fight enough campaigns to really make a statement on who is best. Maybe some truly incompetent ones can be weeded out, but after that you might as well throw some dices. Would be useful if they re-fought WWII 3-4 times with the same people, only switching around the Generals to different fronts so we can analyze who is doing the best job in different circumstances.

And their memories need to be wiped after each time so they start out with equal knowledge, I suppose.
 

DoomBunny

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Not really relevant, as generals aren't in charge of grand strategy.

Yes they are. Both in their role of civil-military relations (i.e., CGS) and as theatre commanders (i.e., the role Kesselring actually played, convincing Hitler to hold most of Italy).

Alps themselves, sure - but with allied naval superiority, it'd have been a possibility to continue into Yugoslavia and strike out Austria & Hungary (little effect during the war, but who knows about the post-war).

Amphibious landings against the Dalmatian coast get brought up time and time again. The problem is they're really not a practical idea. The coastline is one of the worst in Europe for such landings (up there with Norway and Germany's North Sea Coast), and there's actually very little one could achieve by such a landing. Such plans were considered but quite rightly never carried out.
 

keynes2.0

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And their memories need to be wiped after each time so they start out with equal knowledge, I suppose.

Yeah and then after that simulation ends WWII, you would keep going for a few decades to see if there are any long term consequences of their choices worth examining. But you wouldn't need to run it forever, you could shut off the simulation around 2020 or so.
 

Pyoro

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Yeah and then after that simulation ends WWII, you would keep going for a few decades to see if there are any long term consequences of their choices worth examining. But you wouldn't need to run it forever, you could shut off the simulation around 2020 or so.
You get it. Frankly, it's kind of amateurish and irresponsible by those Nazis fighting WWII without getting their statistics right first.
 

Avernite

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Amphibious landings against the Dalmatian coast get brought up time and time again. The problem is they're really not a practical idea. The coastline is one of the worst in Europe for such landings (up there with Norway and Germany's North Sea Coast), and there's actually very little one could achieve by such a landing. Such plans were considered but quite rightly never carried out.

Not amphibious landings; bypassing the Alps on the Venetian plains towards Trieste, some naval support to help breach the 'Isonzo' areas, and marching from there; still not ideal terrain to advance in from there on, but not the Alps either. Resupplying an offensive via Trieste/Venice makes it seem quite possible to go on into Yugoslavia and from there strike north past the eastern side of the Alps.
 

Henry IX

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For my money its a run off between the big Ms, Manstein and Model.

Manstein is the more 'genius' commander with an agressive and risk taking approach that could produce huge gains. His Crimean campaign, particularly the destruction of the Kersch bridgehead was pure genius with one of the most lopsided victories in the history of modern warfare. However, he tended to risk everything up front, which could leave him in very exposed positions.

Model was a more conservative commander, who tended to win smaller victories but also suffered smaller defeats. His ability to hold a defensive position against massive attacks was excellent, however, he did not display the same flashes of genius as Manstein.

Overall, Manstein was critical in the German successes in a way that Model was not, and I would tend to see him as the best overall commander, as the Germans had to win and keep winning against ever more improbable odds to win the war. As such Manstein is their best commander. If you could have somehow transfered Model and Manstein to, say, the American army I would rate Model as the better commander, as he is less likely to do something that could result in a major defeat.
 

olm

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Also the highest share of elite divisions the Germans ever fielded (aside from Crete and North Africa, but those are anomalies for obvious reasons). And, ironically, a casualty ratio that ended up favouring the Allies.

That being said, he was still a very good commander. The defensive work in Italy really slowed down that campaign handily and prevented the Allies closing up on the Alps. Whether that was ever a strategic problem in the first place is another question, given that the Alps present a massive barrier to any further attack.
Wouldn't North-Italy be dangerous as Allied strategic bomber base? Also I believe that most of the relevant Italian industry was concentrated there.
 

Eusebio

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Yes they are. Both in their role of civil-military relations (i.e., CGS) and as theatre commanders (i.e., the role Kesselring actually played, convincing Hitler to hold most of Italy).
That's not being in charge of grand strategy, simply asking for more resources for your theatre of operations.
 

DoomBunny

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Not amphibious landings; bypassing the Alps on the Venetian plains towards Trieste, some naval support to help breach the 'Isonzo' areas, and marching from there; still not ideal terrain to advance in from there on, but not the Alps either. Resupplying an offensive via Trieste/Venice makes it seem quite possible to go on into Yugoslavia and from there strike north past the eastern side of the Alps.

That is exactly the plan considered. 5th Army was to breakthrough on the Po whilst 8th Army landed in Istria. The problems of terrain, objective , and logistics are still there.

I'll also note that Venice seems like a horrible place to use as a base area.

Wouldn't North-Italy be dangerous as Allied strategic bomber base? Also I believe that most of the relevant Italian industry was concentrated there.

That, along with prestige, was Kesselring's logic. The Allies already had bomber bases in the South (around Foggia, this indeed was one of the primary reasons for invading the Italian mainland), but Northern Italy would of course draw the Allies closer. It would have also necessitated garrisoning both the French and Austrian Alps, so.

That's not being in charge of grand strategy, simply asking for more resources for your theatre of operations.

Ultimate command, no. But the general staff and theatre commanders do tend to play a major role in setting strategy. The former is primary adviser to the government on such matters, whilst the latters views are almost always consulted. Both may even become drivers of strategy themselves (as occurred in Kesselring's case) through lobbying or being given such authority (i.e., Eisenhower).
 

DoomBunny

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Moreso then France?

France doesn't really offer anything as a strategic bomber base that the UK doesn't.

Moreso, this is September 1943, so the invasion of France is a way off.
 

CocoCincinnati

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The most desirable target for bombers from Italy was Ploiesti, certainly wouldn't be hitting that from the UK or France, but the allies didn't need to take northern Italy to get closer, they actually were closer in southern Italy (besides they could already reach it from Libya anyway, southern Italy was just closer). Not that they were able to take advantage of it, the first raid on Ploiesti that included aircraft from Italy was a huge failure and they didn't try again for quite some time.
 

D Inqu

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a) Rommel
b) Manstein
c) Gulderian
d) Rundstendt
e) Bock
Obviously none of the above. 2 overhyped mediocrities, 2 with not enough action in WW2 to be on the list, and one who was more of a theoretician than a field commander.

Germany really only has one contender the army group level and it's Model. The one man "firebrigade" to rescue whole army groups from disaster. His activities in 1944 alone kept Germany in the fight for a good half year longer.
 

Sanny

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I would have to go with Model, as much as I like Rommel he failed disasterly in WW2 (his failures were always out of his control though, situational). With proper resources and proper subordinate commanders I believe Rommel would have wiped the floor clean.

Of course Model was known as the Master of Defense whilst Rommel was the Master of Offense. Given that Germany fought mostly Defensive Battles overall, Model is your man.
 

DoomBunny

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I would have to go with Model, as much as I like Rommel he failed disasterly in WW2 (his failures were always out of his control though, situational). With proper resources and proper subordinate commanders I believe Rommel would have wiped the floor clean.

Of course Model was known as the Master of Defense whilst Rommel was the Master of Offense. Given that Germany fought mostly Defensive Battles overall, Model is your man.

Rommel really wasn't that great as a commander when considered in detail. He showed skill as a tactician (though this is often overstated), but his understanding of strategy and logistical elements was poor at best.
 

Dina1954

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Manstein wanted to attack at Kursk, and even after Hitler ordered him to stop attacking (when it became clear it was pointless), he wanted to keep going at it. And as far as I know, Manstein was never threatened with execution, even after he messed up royally in the Ukraine.

Compare it to Model's management of his own attack north of Kursk, where he attacked much more cautiously, kept reserves at hand and so managed to not be overrun by the Soviet counterattack north of Kursk (Operation Kutuzov). As a matter of fact, Manstein was replaced by Model as commander of Army Group South in early 1944, and was never again given a major command.

That does not mean Model was infallible (he swallowed the Soviet maskirovka before Bagration bait, hook and line), but as a whole he was a much more complete commander all around.
Only one thing by 4th of May at a conferance in Münich with Hitler, Zeitzler and von Kluge were in favour of an attack.While von Manstein thought that an attack in April might have a good chance of succes but did NOT belive that the prospects for the attack were good at this LATE stage. Model concluding that the prospects of achieving surprise were gone and was negative to the Zitadelle plan.
 

Semper Victor

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Only one thing by 4th of May at a conferance in Münich with Hitler, Zeitzler and von Kluge were in favour of an attack.While von Manstein thought that an attack in April might have a good chance of succes but did NOT belive that the prospects for the attack were good at this LATE stage. Model concluding that the prospects of achieving surprise were gone and was negative to the Zitadelle plan.

The initial idea for Zitadelle arose in early March 1943, when Hitler instructd the OKH to start planning for it. By then, Manstein's "Backhand Blow" at Kharkov was still rolling, but it would stop shortly after that, simply because the spring Rasputitsa had arrived and turned the landscape into a sea of mud and because of his own considerable losses at Kharkov (II Panzer Army lost half its armour there). Manstein was in favour of launching Zitadelle as soon as possible, and so the original start date was set to May 12.

But the problem was that even way before the May 4 meeting at Munich (in which Hitler, Zeitzler, Kluge, Guderian and Manstein were present, Model could not make it and sent a letter stating his opinions about the whole issue), the Soviets already knew that the Germans would be attacking the Kursk salient and had begun their preparatives, so that even if the Germans had attacked on May 12 as originally planned they would've crashed against substantial Soviet defences, and with far less new fancy weapons that they would have available later in July.

On April 8, Zhukov sent a telegram to Stalin stating with 100% certainty that the German attack would be directed against Kursk, and in this he had the full agreement of Vasilevsky and the Front commanders in the area. And there's yet another source, Anastas Mikoyan's Memoirs, which claims that the Soviets knew with certainty about the German plans even earlier than that. According to Mikoyan, he was summoned to a meeting with Stalin on March 27, in which Stalin told them that the Germans were gathering forces for an assault on Kursk.

Historians still don't agree where and how did the Soviets get this key information. "Lucy" is a possibility, another is information from Bletchley Park, either provided willingly by the British or smuggled to the NKVD resident in London by Cairncross and Philby. The problem with this option is that according to records, all the German messages decrypted at Bletchley Park pointing to a German offensive at Kurk are dated after April 8. And there are still other open options: Soviet partisans could had tapped German land cable lines behind the front (a very real possibility and something that was done regularly), or the Soviets, unknown to their western Allies, could have been able too by that stage in the war to break the German codes.

Whatever the reason, the Soviets were fully alert by early April, and even if the Germans had attacked on May 12, the Soviets would have had a full month to fortify themselves and stockpile reserves and supplies. This is what Model stated in his letter to the May 4 Munich meeting: he (unlike Manstein) had conducted careful intensive aerial reconaissance of Soviet positions in front of his forces, and they were already formidably fortified, and so he wanted to call the whole thing off.
 

Easy-Kill

O you were the best of all of my days!
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Rommel really wasn't that great as a commander when considered in detail. He showed skill as a tactician (though this is often overstated), but his understanding of strategy and logistical elements was poor at best.

Indeed, every time I read of Rommel's great successes, they are usually where the allies serendipitously opened a gap just at the point where he was preparing to attack. The Battle of France was one giant strategic screw up on both sides (The allies for leaving a gap and the Germans for concentrating the main offensive force in that unknown gap). In Africa, his successes were helped by allied redeployment of troops (first to Greece then to the far east). In 1940-1942 the British were essentially fire fighting all over the globe - Rommel couldn't even win the campaign there. As soon as he came up against a well established, well supplied and force that wasn't going to be removed, he was beaten back and kicked out of the continent!
 

D Inqu

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But the problem was that even way before the May 4 meeting at Munich (in which Hitler, Zeitzler, Kluge, Guderian and Manstein were present, Model could not make it and sent a letter stating his opinions about the whole issue), the Soviets already knew that the Germans would be attacking the Kursk salient and had begun their preparatives, so that even if the Germans had attacked on May 12 as originally planned they would've crashed against substantial Soviet defences, and with far less new fancy weapons that they would have available later in July.
The biggest obstacle to launching the offensive in may was the fact that there simply was no men (let alone fancy toys) to launch such an offensive in May. Army Group Center had literally been bled dry with the Soviet early 1943 offensives, and had to finally abandon the Rzhev salient they bitterly held for the past year. They stopped the Soviets from making any breakthrough, but launching a major offensive was just not possible.