Best Generals of ww2 and their role in this game

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D Inqu

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You should write a book about how incompetent Manstein was. It might become a bestseller, after all it would be the first of its kind. ;)
I'd be extremely interested in reading the chapters about the Sichelschnitt, the capture of Sevastopol and the "backhand blow" when he showed his brilliant elastic defence and reverted Stalingrad by destroying several Russian armies in early 1943.
Thank god, Hitler denied Manstein operational freedom and held him on a tight leash. Otherwise the Wehrmacht might have lost the war and suffered several disastrous defeats... oh wait, nevermind.
I don't need to write a book. The Manstein myth was debunked decades ago, and with the exception of a few dinosaurs who regard "lost victories" as a serious source, noone buys this stuff anymore. You listed just about every myth about Manstein, so I can only assume that's the only thing about him you read.

How unfortunate that he was dismissed in early 1944, he might have ended the war a few months earlier if he was not.


Even the great Soviet victories of 1943 were only caused by the sheer endless manpower. The Soviets knew every detail of Operation Citadel (this time their intelligence worked perfectly). They had months to prepare defensive positions. They outnumbered the attackers in every field. Simultaneously the Allies landed in Italy, diverting German forces away from the Soviet front. Hitler denying the most capable leaders any sort of operational freedom. Vast L&L shipments in favour of the Soviets and on forth.
And yet, the Soviets lost 10 times (I believe it was more like 7:1 though) more men than Germany in July and August???
Good job on blindly stating yet another Manstein myth about "endless Russian manpower". In 1943 the Soviets only controlled territory with just over 120 million population. There was no major manpower advantage compared to Germany her allies.

The allies did no divert any troops from Kursk. TZitadelle failed before the first suggestions about moving troops were even made (not to mention most of of the troops earmarked for redeployment were kept on the Eastern front due to Soviet counteroffensives)

The casualties nonsense I will comment on later.
 

seattle

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I don't need to write a book. The Manstein myth was debunked decades ago, and with the exception of a few dinosaurs who regard "lost victories" as a serious source, noone buys this stuff anymore. You listed just about every myth about Manstein, so I can only assume that's the only thing about him you read.

Funny enough, I never read "Lost Victories". Sad to see though that the vast majority of historians and history buffs are stupid for disagreeing with you.
 

vonhavoc

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You dont take in account of where they were at a certain datum.
2:1 overall, is not the same on a certain datum.

Btw, if the 'secret' tape is true, when Hitler spoke with that Finnish General, he mentioned 35000 tanks of what he seemed to be afraid. So probably the ratio was at the beginning much worse.

Well, his theory has more than enough holes anyway.

Not all german vehicles were destroyed. Even if they had been, not all german vehicles were destroyed in combat or by enemies. Even if they had been, not all german vehicles were destroyed by soviets.

It's just amazing how people think losing the war means losing all the equipment in combat. After all, there are still german vehicles in various museums, quite a lot of them were demolished after the war (swords into plowshares kind of action).

This almost reminds me of podcat claiming (almost) all Tigers were lost in combat since there is only 7 or so left in museums...

But back to the generals. Manstein's actions on the eastern front are mentioned more than once here, but another feather in his cap would be the fall of France. After all, it was Manstein who modified the original OKH plan. Panzer thrust near Sedan anyone? Impossible!

Of course the plan was further modified since then, but the panzer thrust near Sedan was in the final plan too, and proved successful. Critically so. During the planning stages Manstein wasn't even leader of any armies or army groups, but a "mere" chief of staff in Army Group A under von Rundstedt.
 

D Inqu

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You seem to have missed that i also wrote down the losses for Operation Citadel (battle of Kursk) as a whole. Going by Wikipedia as i am in a hurry, it lists 4:1 in Soldiers, 8:1 or so in armor, and 3:1 in aircraft for the entire operation.

You have to love German casualties reports. Historians spend years trying to connect that mess to reality, the numbers just don't add up, yet some wikipedia experts just love to take 10-day reports and add them up. Even though it is known that the numbers in those reports do not add up to the point it becomes silly. With German casualties so small, one might wonder why had to conscript virtually everyone who could hold a gun by early 1945.

It took years of sifting though data to end up with the Overmans study we have today, which finally established German casualties and which highlights just how much the 10-day reports are the tip of iceberg For example 10-day reports for the Eastern Front to Dec 31, 1944 add up to 907k killed and 1,117k missing for a mere total of just over 2 million. According to the Overmans report, the casualties by end of 1944 are in fact 2.75 million dead + 1.1 million prisoners for a total of 3.85 million. In other words, almost double of the figure in the 10-day reports.

Unfortunately no such work has been done (or likely to be done) trying to find casualties for individual operations. Most historians just try to guesstimate, knowing 10-day reports are incomplete, but no other source exists.


With tanks it gets even better. "Officially", (like on wikipedia which our are quoting), germans only "lost" 320 or so AFVs, or around 12% of their starting strength. One might wonder why they lost and were somehow unable to stop soviet counteroffensives. Simultaneously all the German war diaries and reports reveal how the troops were completely spent from the offensive. Again, it took until recently to somehow reconcile these seemingly contradictory sources. Jentz's classic "Panzertruppen" has a number of interesting graphs and data tables. It shows how most Kursk Panzer divisions were lost 90% of their starting strength, but since most thanks were theoretically repairable they were not listed as losses.
 

D Inqu

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Funny enough, I never read "Lost Victories". Sad to see though that the vast majority of historians and history buffs are stupid for disagreeing with you.
Oh, please don't speak for the "vast majority", especially if you have not read them. The Manstein was so poorly made, it collapsed as soon as historians started scrutinising the "lost victories" tryingto find some hint of reality there.
 

seattle

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Oh, please don't speak for the "vast majority", especially if you have not read them. The Manstein was so poorly made, it collapsed as soon as historians started scrutinising the "lost victories" tryingto find some hint of reality there.

Jesus, your arrogance turns into ignorance. You don't have the faintest idea what I have read and what I have not read. I don't really feel like discussing with you any longer. It's just not pleasurable. I prefer conversing with people who show mutual respect.
 

D Inqu

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Jesus, your arrogance turns into ignorance. You don't have the faintest idea what I have read and what I have not read. I don't really feel like discussing with you any longer. It's just not pleasurable. I prefer conversing with people who show mutual respect.

Don't worry, the feeling is mutual. I cannot believe there are people in this day and age who still cling on to the myth about this "genius" who would have won the war if it wasn't for the trillions of Russians and "stupid Hitler".
 

scroggin

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For the most part, it all depends on what a general is asked to do. Paulus, by all accounts, was a brilliant staff general. Giving him army command was a big mistake.
Monty was a master of the set-piece battle. There was one before the 2nd Battle of El Alamein, where he send Rommel packing by careful placement of his AT-units. Getting him to do stuff Patton did, was not his strength.

I Agree with what you have to say about Monty, his worst performance was Operation Market Garden. Market garden was a case of the wrong general and the wrong army getting a poor result. In several years of fighting against a well led and often better equipped enemy the British officers and men had learnt to be cautious in advance and tenacious in defence. These tactics gave good results in North Africa where they beat the German blitzkreig. To take these people, with these tactics and habits then ask them to go on a blitzkrieg was always going to be difficult. Market Garden would have been far easier for Patton and his army.
Monty had the strategic vision to see that operation market garden could shorten the war by opening up the channel ports for much needed supplies, and putting allied troops into germany's industrial heartland. He had been pushing Eisenhower to stop all other advances and concentrate their limited resources for a knife edge thrust towards the north. Eisenhower's insistence on a more broad advance delayed Market Garden contributing to its failure.
 

misterbean

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Yeah, when you look at his command in the Normandy Bocage, 2 things stand out for me.

1) He was outclassed by Rommel's masterful and dogged defense.
2) He didn't stop pushing for one second. He tried something, that didn't work. He'd stop, and a couple of days later he tried something else. Intentional or not, but his stubborn persistence partly allowed Patton to come up from behind the Germans, which led to the Falaise pocket almost closing.

To me, Monty is not perfect. Far from it. But he is absolutely talented enough to know when to quit, when to try another tack and when to keep pushing. And that, to me, is a good skill for any CO to have.
 

Porkman

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I Agree with what you have to say about Monty, his worst performance was Operation Market Garden. Market garden was a case of the wrong general and the wrong army getting a poor result. In several years of fighting against a well led and often better equipped enemy the British officers and men had learnt to be cautious in advance and tenacious in defence. These tactics gave good results in North Africa where they beat the German blitzkreig. To take these people, with these tactics and habits then ask them to go on a blitzkrieg was always going to be difficult. Market Garden would have been far easier for Patton and his army.
Monty had the strategic vision to see that operation market garden could shorten the war by opening up the channel ports for much needed supplies, and putting allied troops into germany's industrial heartland. He had been pushing Eisenhower to stop all other advances and concentrate their limited resources for a knife edge thrust towards the north. Eisenhower's insistence on a more broad advance delayed Market Garden contributing to its failure.

This is such a weasel worded defense of Monty.

1) "Against a better equipped enemy" - Did we not just have 7 pages of both Rommels proponents and detractors saying how poorly equipped the Afrika Korps was? The British were better equipped and closer to their own supplies by the time that the Afrika Korps got there. Monty failing to win quickly doesn't mean that he was a bad general but it does mean that any story about him fighting on against impossible odds in North Africa is ridiculous.

2) "Monty had the strategic vision" - Everyone with eyes would have loved to go through the Netherlands into Germany. Seeing that is not a mark of a great general. Monty himself over promised with Market Garden. Another general may have been able to make it work, as you say with the "wrong general, wrong army" but the fact remains that Monty didn't believe that he was the wrong general with the wrong army.

3) "It's Eisenhower's fault" - Eisenhower trusted his subordinate to succeed in an operation that Monty had assured him would succeed. There was a possibility of success there, but it wasn't pulled off. You don't get to kick that up to Eisenhower for not putting the entire front on hold for Market Garden. You take it as a given that the delay caused Market Garden to fail and that may be true, but there's also the idea that the Germans, with all quiet elsewhere on the front, may have reacted even faster and more brutally to a Market Garden that was conducted in isolation.
 

misterbean

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Market Garden should have been cancelled the moment they learned that the SS had troops in the area recuperating. It wasn't. For some reason, they allowed those men to fly out. I don't blame Monty or Eisenhower, or Patton. I blame the Allied High Command in general. That includes Eisenhower AND Monty and the guy in charge of the planes. I think it was a moment of war weariness, leading to wishful thinking.
 

Dalwin

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Market Garden should have been cancelled the moment they learned that the SS had troops in the area recuperating. It wasn't. For some reason, they allowed those men to fly out. I don't blame Monty or Eisenhower, or Patton. I blame the Allied High Command in general. That includes Eisenhower AND Monty and the guy in charge of the planes. I think it was a moment of war weariness, leading to wishful thinking.

Regretably I have not read a detailed account of this one, but the way I have seen it portrayed in movies is that some British staffer decided not to put credence in the small number of recon photos that showed armored vehicles in the area where the SS was resting. I believe there was also some intel from the Dutch underground which was discounted.
 

SergeantPunch

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I'm only vaguely familiar with it but it looks like he committed too small a force to advance through German lines to link up with the paratroopers. They needed more armoured divisions , at least another two.
 

Dalwin

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I'm only vaguely familiar with it but it looks like he committed too small a force to advance through German lines to link up with the paratroopers. They needed more armoured divisions , at least another two.

Unfortunately, I don't think it was a simple as adding more units to the linkup force. Part of the problem is that the advance was along a highway with key choke points, i.e. the bridges. Traffic along that highway was an issue. Another problem was that each time they encountered any resisteance they had to deploy from road column formation to something more tactical to deal with it before once again advancing in column along the road. This made the timetable unrealistic. Operations normally don't advance at road speed.
 

misterbean

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Add to that, the fact that they had far too few transport planes to begin with, and it was dead in the water to begin with. One group of paratroopers left half a day or a day late because of lousy weather over the Channel, which only messed up the timetable even further.
 

vonhavoc

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My new favourite general Walter Model I think was the German commander in this failed market garden. It really was a rush of blood to think he could beat Model.

Knowing Model he actually might have been with his troops during the operation, but I doubt he was responsible for the somewhat sloppy implementation of the paradrop. Circumstances matter a lot. As do the troops taking part. Leadership too. But had the german unit(s) in question been... say volksturm instead of Waffen-SS the story might have been totally different. Model or no Model.
 

misterbean

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On 4 September the 719th infantry division began to dig in along the Albert Canal and was soon joined by forces under the command of Lieutenant General Kurt Chill.[82] Although Chill only officially commanded the 85th Infantry Division, which had suffered heavy casualties during the retreat from Normandy, he had assumed command of the remnants of the 84th and 89th Infantry Divisions en route. Initially ordered to take his command to the Rhineland for rest and reinforcements, Chill disregarded the order and moved his forces to the Albert Canal, linking up with the 719th; he also had 'reception centres' set up at the bridges crossing the Albert Canal, where small groups of retreating troops were picked up and turned into 'ad hoc' units.[81][82] By 7 September the 176th Infantry Division, a Kranken division composed of elderly men and men with various medical complaints, had arrived from the Siegfried Line and elements of the First Parachute Army began to appear. At this stage the Army consisted of approximately seven Fallschirmjaeger regiments composed of some 20,000 airborne troops along with a collection of anti-aircraft batteries and a mix of 25 self-propelled guns and tank destroyers.[83] Kriegsmarine and SS units were also allocated to Student's command, and Hitler had promised Model that 200 Panther tanks would be sent straight from the production lines; he also ordered all Tiger tanks, Jagdpanther self-propelled guns and 88 mm guns that were available in Germany be transferred to the West.[84]

On 5 September, Model's forces were bolstered by the arrival of the II SS Panzer Corps, which consisted of the 9th SS and 10th SS Panzer Divisions under the command of Lieutenant General Wilhelm Bittrich. The Corps had been reduced to approximately 6,000–7,000 men, 20–30% of its original strength in the course of continuous action since late June including in the Falaise pocket; losses in officers and NCOs had been especially high.[85] Model ordered the two divisions to rest and refit in 'safe' areas behind the new German line; these areas coincidentally were to be Eindhoven and Arnhem.[86] The 10th SS Panzer Division was to be restored to full strength in order to provide an armoured reserve and thus the 9th SS Panzer Division was ordered to transfer all of its heavy equipment to its sister division; it was intended that the 9th would then be transported to Germany for replenishment.[85] At the time of Operation Market-Garden, the 10th SS Panzer Division had an approximate strength of 3,000 men; an armoured infantry regiment, divisional reconnaissance battalion, two artillery battalions and an engineer battalion, all partially motorized.[j] Other formations were appearing to strengthen the German defences. Between 16 and 17 September two infantry divisions from Fifteenth Army assembled in Brabant, understrength but well-equipped and able to act as a reserve.[88] Near Eindhoven and Arnhem a number of scratch formations were being assembled. Several SS units, including an NCO training battalion and a panzergrenadier reserve battalion, were being prepared to enter combat and Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine personnel were being grouped into Fliegerhorst and Schiffstammabteilung formations. There were also a number of training battalions that were being equipped, several depot battalions from the Hermann Goering Panzer Division and various artillery, anti-aircraft and field police units scattered throughout the north of the Netherlands.[89]

This is from Wikipedia, so take from it what you will. The presence of those 7 Fallschirmjäger-Regiments couldn't have helped.
 

Axe99

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Market Garden should have been cancelled the moment they learned that the SS had troops in the area recuperating. It wasn't. For some reason, they allowed those men to fly out. I don't blame Monty or Eisenhower, or Patton. I blame the Allied High Command in general. That includes Eisenhower AND Monty and the guy in charge of the planes. I think it was a moment of war weariness, leading to wishful thinking.

While I think Monty was over-rated (and far from the best general the Brits had either), I also think the American myth of him being useless is about as accurate as any views of him being flawless. The failure of Market Garden, though, was far more due to the unexpected enemy force levels in the area than anything else. I had no idea (just haven't read up on the op) they knew about the SS divisions resting up before the operation - whoever ignored that and pressed 'go' anyway should have been dropped in with the 1st Airborne Division at Arnhem to understand the gravity of the oversight!
 
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vonhavoc

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"Bill Slim was a born leader of soldiers. When he became chief of the Imperial General Staff in 1948 it was said of him that he had never forgotten the smell of soldiers' feet. Everything he did was based on ensuring that his men came first. His soldiers knew and loved him because of this.

He fought in Burma and India in a very different way to that of most other British Generals of the Second World War and indeed of most other British Generals of all time.

He tried to outwit the enemy and dislocate him mentally, rather than trying to overcome him by force alone. To do this he took huge logistical and operational risks, he attacked the enemy where the enemy was weakest rather than at his strongest point, he surprised the enemy and he sought to use subtlety and guile in a very powerful and new way.

This method certainly surprised the Japanese and it defeated them at Imphal and Kohima in India in 1944 and again at Mandalay and Meiktila in Burma in 1945. It also surprised his bosses in New Delhi and London, who were taken aback at the remarkable success of this remarkable man."

Robert Lyman, a former army officer, is a military historian and biographer of Bill Slim.

Oh, how anything in Burma is overlooked.

When I read this it reminded me of von Lettow-Vorbeck's actions in German East Africa during WW1. And at least in my book it's an extremly favorable comparison :) I have a soft spot for people who make things happen against unfavorable odds.

A bit more about Monty. When I say Monty was decent, or good, it certainly on my part is not meant critisize him, or belittle his victories. It's just the feeling of detached professionalism about him that I can't shake. Doing what is needed, enough, but just that, not more. More of a worker than an artist. Once again, my impressions, not meant as an insult in any way. Can't nail my explanation exactly as I wanted it anyway..