Best Generals of ww2 and their role in this game

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misterbean

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That's what I'm asking you. Your fantasy version makesabsolutely no sense. Somehow the the rout of the whole AG South is "Manstein had leading them on a merry chase". Which is obviously insane.

Not according to this website: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/p/World-War-Ii-Third-Battle-Of-Kharkov.htm

Hitler gave him carte blanche, so Van Manstein used an admittedly extreme version of mobile defense, pulling back until they were overstretched. He then proceeded to capture/disable some 51 divisions.
 

Zinegata

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First it's a catastrophic rout, then it's a tactic?

I think that some clarification is needed here.

D Inqu was talking not just about the pullback of AG South forces to Kharkov, but also the withdrawal / rout of the German Caucasus Armies - which was a pretty utter catastrophe.

The issue is that the Germans sent substantial forces - including an entire Panzer Army - further south of Rostov into the Caucasus, in a vain attempt to capture Soviet oil sources. While doing so, they left their flanks exposed to Soviet forces in Stalingrad; which explains why 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army was fighting at Stalingrad in the first place. Even worse, due to the massive extension of the frontline, you basically had a gaggle of Axis Minor Armies - Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians still waiting for equipment the Germans promised them - shoring up all the holes in the line in this battle area, and all of these units were badly overstretched themselves.

It was basically 1940 all over again, except the Germans were doing all the mistakes the French did.

Manstein's "achievement" was that he managed to pull a portion of the Caucasus armies out after the Soviets surrounded Stalingrad and threatened to retake Rostov - which was the Caucasus' armies sole supply line. He succeeded in getting First Panzer Army out, but the rest of the forces - including a lot of Axis minios and locally raised units that the Germans typically don't count among their losses - were essentially wiped out along with the Stalingrad pocket. This is the rout that D Inqu is talking about - Manstein's "withdrawal" actually left behind a lot of units, and his memoirs and pro-German post war propaganda made a big deal of the fact that he "saved" 1st Panzer Army while leaving the rest of the Caucasus forces to rot (and really, this trope of Germans "fighting out" of Soviet encirclements when in reality only bits and pieces managed to evade capture and the rest of the casualties were simply covered up or not counted repeats over and over again especially by 1944).

That said, I do think he's a bit harsh on Manstein. Manstein saw an opportunity - the Soviets overstretched themselves by trying to reach the Dnepier instead of just limiting the offensive to the Don - and he made them pay for it with pretty good results (more reliable sources would say that he destroyed a Soviet Tank Army and some 50,000 Soviet troops).

But it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't necessarily a brand-new tactic that would save NATO from Soviet tank hordes (that's just the Cold War version talking), and people keep forgetting the Germans had to commit a freshly refitted SS Panzer Corps for the counter-offensive and it got badly mauled to the point that the SS had to start resorting to stealing recruits from the Luftwaffe and Wermacht after Third Kharkov because they had exhausted their own ideologically-approved recruiting pool.

Third Kharkov was a German tactical victory born out of a Soviet mistake and an alert German commander who took advantage of their mistake. But t is not a modern Cannae that the Cold War fanfiction writers made out to be. If we tried to do it Manstein-style in a hypothetical Third World War, it would be like the Bundeswehr claiming victory after destroying a Soviet Tank Army (let's say 3rd Shock), but in doing so left all the Belgian, Dutch, and Danish units to die (they're not good units anyway!) while suffering heavy losses themselves. It's not going to alter the strategic balance in the long run and is just another road down a slow rot.
 

misterbean

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I think that some clarification is needed here.

D Inqu was talking not just about the pullback of AG South forces to Kharkov, but also the withdrawal / rout of the German Caucasus Armies - which was a pretty utter catastrophe.

The issue is that the Germans sent substantial forces - including an entire Panzer Army - further south of Rostov into the Caucasus, in a vain attempt to capture Soviet oil sources. While doing so, they left their flanks exposed to Soviet forces in Stalingrad; which explains why 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army was fighting at Stalingrad in the first place. Even worse, due to the massive extension of the frontline, you basically had a gaggle of Axis Minor Armies - Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians still waiting for equipment the Germans promised them - shoring up all the holes in the line in this battle area, and all of these units were badly overstretched themselves.

It was basically 1940 all over again, except the Germans were doing all the mistakes the French did.

Manstein's "achievement" was that he managed to pull a portion of the Caucasus armies out after the Soviets surrounded Stalingrad and threatened to retake Rostov - which was the Caucasus' armies sole supply line. He succeeded in getting First Panzer Army out, but the rest of the forces - including a lot of Axis minios and locally raised units that the Germans typically don't count among their losses - were essentially wiped out along with the Stalingrad pocket. This is the rout that D Inqu is talking about - Manstein's "withdrawal" actually left behind a lot of units, and his memoirs and pro-German post war propaganda made a big deal of the fact that he "saved" 1st Panzer Army while leaving the rest of the Caucasus forces to rot (and really, this trope of Germans "fighting out" of Soviet encirclements when in reality only bits and pieces managed to evade capture and the rest of the casualties were simply covered up or not counted repeats over and over again especially by 1944).

That said, I do think he's a bit harsh on Manstein. Manstein saw an opportunity - the Soviets overstretched themselves by trying to reach the Dnepier instead of just limiting the offensive to the Don - and he made them pay for it with pretty good results (more reliable sources would say that he destroyed a Soviet Tank Army and some 50,000 Soviet troops).

But it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't necessarily a brand-new tactic that would save NATO from Soviet tank hordes (that's just the Cold War version talking), and people keep forgetting the Germans had to commit a freshly refitted SS Panzer Corps for the counter-offensive and it got badly mauled to the point that the SS had to start resorting to stealing recruits from the Luftwaffe and Wermacht after Third Kharkov because they had exhausted their own ideologically-approved recruiting pool.

Third Kharkov was a German tactical victory born out of a Soviet mistake and an alert German commander who took advantage of their mistake. But t is not a modern Cannae that the Cold War fanfiction writers made out to be. If we tried to do it Manstein-style in a hypothetical Third World War, it would be like the Bundeswehr claiming victory after destroying a Soviet Tank Army (let's say 3rd Shock), but in doing so left all the Belgian, Dutch, and Danish units to die (they're not good units anyway!) while suffering heavy losses themselves. It's not going to alter the strategic balance in the long run and is just another road down a slow rot.

I agree that splitting the AG in 2 was just a disaster waiting to happen, which did lead to the Caucasus rout. But there is something to consider: Hitler did order Paulus to stand and fight. This is not mythos, but proven fact. Paulus should have just broken out and pulled back the moment he saw the stormclouds gather, regardless of orders. He didn't, and Von Manstein had to try breaking them out, further weakening his forces. Did it have an effect on the rout? I don't know. It could have.
 

kashkin

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I agree that splitting the AG in 2 was just a disaster waiting to happen, which did lead to the Caucasus rout. But there is something to consider: Hitler did order Paulus to stand and fight. This is not mythos, but proven fact. Paulus should have just broken out and pulled back the moment he saw the stormclouds gather, regardless of orders. He didn't, and Von Manstein had to try breaking them out, further weakening his forces. Did it have an effect on the rout? I don't know. It could have.

I'm a bit skeptical over this stuff. Even if Paulus could have broken out (the 19th ID (?, maybe another, I forget which) suffered heavy casualties trying to, though they went at it alone), von Manstein would have had to spend a large amount of time and effort getting the beleaguered 6th Army + others out of the south generally. All in all, those troops might have ended up being a drag.
 

D Inqu

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Not according to this website: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/p/World-War-Ii-Third-Battle-Of-Kharkov.htm

Hitler gave him carte blanche, so Van Manstein used an admittedly extreme version of mobile defense, pulling back until they were overstretched. He then proceeded to capture/disable some 51 divisions.

Only that's myth.

The Germans retreated because had to, having lost a bulk of their combat forces in the south. Hitler gave Manstein far more that a carte blanche, the German high command sent substantial reinforcements to the south, including , GD division, 2nd SS Panzer Corps, which were fresh units (as well as few less remembered, but nevertheless important infantry divisions). The counter offensive was well executed, and very good for restoring German morale after Stalingrad. However, the "backhand blow" nonsense was a poor whitewash attempt to try justify earlier retreats, and present a fairly standard WW2 tactic of "attack overstretched enemy with fresh reserves", as some genius masteplan.

The fantasy number of "51 divisions" was never more than cheap self praise, only present to give an air of "massive russian hordes", which never existed.

I think that some clarification is needed here.


Manstein's "achievement" was that he managed to pull a portion of the Caucasus armies out after the Soviets surrounded Stalingrad and threatened to retake Rostov - which was the Caucasus' armies sole supply line.
Almost correct. Almost, because the task of taking Rostov became secondary for the Soviets, due to resistance of various encirled German allies. Hence the Soviet scaling down for "Saturn" to "Little Saturn". The resistance of the 1st Panzer Army and its extraction gives credit to Hoth and von Kleist (who got promoted to Field Marshal), not so much to Manstein.

I agree that splitting the AG in 2 was just a disaster waiting to happen, which did lead to the Caucasus rout. But there is something to consider: Hitler did order Paulus to stand and fight. This is not mythos, but proven fact. Paulus should have just broken out and pulled back the moment he saw the stormclouds gather, regardless of orders. He didn't, and Von Manstein had to try breaking them out, further weakening his forces. Did it have an effect on the rout? I don't know. It could have.
The whole idea behind Fall Blau was incredibly high risk plan (leading back some of Zinegata's earlier posts). However you next point is very interesting. The German army at that point has never had mass encirclements which resulted in defeat. They had several instances in 1942 when encirled and semiencircled troops held their grounds for months before being relieved. Had Paulus chosen to retreat, he would have been responsible for the subsequent destruction of his army, which would have had to retreat with no fuel, no heavy equipment, no winter equipment and with plenty of fresh Soviet troops nearby. I am sure had he done that, all the "experts" today would say: "stupid Paulus should have dug in and held out and got his army massacred in open field".

Interestingly, "Paulus breaking out" was the outcome the Soviets were hoping for. That way they would get control of and important infrastructure hub 2 months earlier, obtain lost of trophies without heavy urban fighting and the several armies would be free to be used in offensives, rather than tied up to reduce the encirclement.
 

seattle

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Paulus could've easily broken out, because the Soviets didn't realize the magnitude of the pocket. They estimated 100.000 Axis troops encircled. Had Paulus broken out in full force immediately, the Soviets would have been overwhelmed.

When it was too late to break out, the 6th army had to hold out to enable the Caucasus army group to retreat. A capitulation of the Stalingrad pocket a month earlier would have caused the destruction of the entire army group. Paulus would have single-handedly decided the war. Considering his later treachery (working for the Commies in Eastern Germany), it was a wonder that he didn't do that.
 

MartinSWE

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I don´t get the almost perverse focus some people in the thread have on Soviet casualties and how these shows what a 'poor' army and command they had. FACT is that the Red Army by 1941 had to work with obsolete equipment, doctrines and a decapitated officer corps due to the purges during 1937-40. Added to this was the FACT that the Axis forces on the Eastern Front had GREATER numbers and superior equipment and even with these advantages the Red Army managed to halt the same Army the british and french had been powerless against.

STAVKA knew that the main advantage of the Soviet Union was it´s almost 'limitless' manpower which meant that they could trade 'blood for time' as General Chuikov famously put it during the defence of Stalingrad. This meant that they from the outset of Operation Barbarossa focused on 'bleeding' the Wehrmacht and considering the HUGE german losses during the first 6 months of the campaign this was a success. After STAVKA had 'reorganised' the Officer Corp and put the very able Zhukov and Vassilevskiy in charge of the Army with able officers such as the newly released Rokkosovsky and Konev in field command the Wehrmacht where in serious trouble.

I would however like to 'promote' my favourite Soviet General http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodion_Malinovsky as perhaps the greatest Officer in the entire Red Army and he should without a doubt be one of the best officers in the Game.
 
Last edited:

scroggin

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Treachery? Then all of German generals, who agreed to work for anybody after the fall of the Reich, are traitors.

Paulus helped the Russians when they were at war with Germany, of course that's treachery. People could try and justify it by saying the Nazi's Were a Terrible Regime, But so were the communists. He was just trying to save his hide.
 

Opanashc

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Paulus helped the Russians when they were at war with Germany, of course that's treachery. People could try and justify it by saying the Nazi's Were a Terrible Regime, But so were the communists. He was just trying to save his hide.
Plenty of German generals in Soviet captivity did not cooperate - and didn't have problems (unless found guilty of war crimes).
What about the Germans who cooperated with the Allies to bring Hitler down? Were they not traitors?
Don't forget, that Hitler won democratic elections!
I suggest we stop talking off-topic, before the moderators start the repercussions.
 

D Inqu

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Paulus could've easily broken out, because the Soviets didn't realize the magnitude of the pocket. They estimated 100.000 Axis troops encircled. Had Paulus broken out in full force immediately, the Soviets would have been overwhelmed.

When it was too late to break out, the 6th army had to hold out to enable the Caucasus army group to retreat. A capitulation of the Stalingrad pocket a month earlier would have caused the destruction of the entire army group.

The soviets had around 1 million men involved at the start of the offensive, still fresh and around Stalingrad when Paulus would have had to break out. How would they overwhelmed by 325k men who had disputed command hierarchy and simply under a lot of pressure. I say "men", because fuel shortages meant that tanks, motor vehicles and artillery would have to be abandoned. And thats not even accounting for the somewhat lower ability of German allies to participate in a breakout. And the open terrain around Stalingrad would make them into easy targets. So to say Paulus would have easily broken out would be an exaggeration to say the least.

The other part, which people seem to miss, was that Paulus breaking out was strategically beneficial for the Soviets because it means that they would have have regained control of an important rail hub 2 months earlier and with little casualties. The German allied armies are still annihilated, Paulus' army, even in the ideal breakout scenario would need complete refitting. So the drive to Rostov, which was not executed IRL, would have been possible.
 

misterbean

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The thing that has always struck me as so incredible about Stalingrad is: How come nobody saw those 1 million soldiers gathering? I know that the Soviets turned deception into an artform during the war, but still...

That's why my earlier post said that he should have gotten out of Dodge the moment he knew things were about to get ugly.
 

Opanashc

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The thing that has always struck me as so incredible about Stalingrad is: How come nobody saw those 1 million soldiers gathering? I know that the Soviets turned deception into an artform during the war, but still...
German commanders sent up vastly exaggerated reports of how many Soviet soldiers they killed. Knowing the population figures of USSR, German analysts reported, that USSR has no more manpower reserves. AG Center is reporting, that Red Army is concentrating for big offensive at Rzhev. Hence logical conclusion - nowhere else can the Red Army start a large offensive.
 

misterbean

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German commanders sent up vastly exaggerated reports of how many Soviet soldiers they killed. Knowing the population figures of USSR, German analysts reported, that USSR has no more manpower reserves. AG Center is reporting, that Red Army is concentrating for big offensive at Rzhev. Hence logical conclusion - nowhere else can the Red Army start a large offensive.

Makes sense. didn't they pull sort of the same trick in preparation for Bagration? Mass a bunch of troops in the south, until the Germans think they're gunning for Romania, then quietly move everything in the dead of night. I might be getting things mixed up again.
 

D Inqu

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The thing that has always struck me as so incredible about Stalingrad is: How come nobody saw those 1 million soldiers gathering? I know that the Soviets turned deception into an artform during the war, but still...

That's why my earlier post said that he should have gotten out of Dodge the moment he knew things were about to get ugly.

Intelligence made some spectacular screw ups on all sides throughout the war. It was not an exception, it was a rule. And when you army is preparing for a final push for an important war target, it's kind of difficult to suddenly realise the intelligence reports were that badly wrong. Not to mention, the whole experience of 1942 has led the germans to believe that the Soviets are not powerful enough to reduce large encirclements and that keeping a cool head would lead to victory (and also avoid being court martialled).

German commanders sent up vastly exaggerated reports of how many Soviet soldiers they killed. Knowing the population figures of USSR, German analysts reported, that USSR has no more manpower reserves.
The same applied to Soviet commanders, which was why the Soviets thought they had a 100k pocket and not a 325k one.
 

misterbean

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Intelligence made some spectacular screw ups on all sides throughout the war. It was not an exception, it was a rule. And when you army is preparing for a final push for an important war target, it's kind of difficult to suddenly realise the intelligence reports were that badly wrong. Not to mention, the whole experience of 1942 has led the germans to believe that the Soviets are not powerful enough to reduce large encirclements and that keeping a cool head would lead to victory (and also avoid being court martialled).


The same applied to Soviet commanders, which was why the Soviets thought they had a 100k pocket and not a 325k one.

Good points. Still, 1 million? That's about 10% of Belgium's total population. Just to put things into perspective ;)
 

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Plenty of German generals in Soviet captivity did not cooperate - and didn't have problems (unless found guilty of war crimes).
What about the Germans who cooperated with the Allies to bring Hitler down? Were they not traitors?
Don't forget, that Hitler won democratic elections!
I suggest we stop talking off-topic, before the moderators start the repercussions.

he didn't really win democratic elections though. He had a minority government that was supported by democratic socialists who either had the option of backing the communists or him so they choose him.
 

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Another part of the topic I would like attention drawn to is their role in this game? how will it differ to hoi3? without hierarchy a lot of the good will be gone out of generals perhaps as in you will need only a few of them. This would be to the disadvantage of Germany I guess who had more skilled generals than other nations. Will there be an expanded role for generals I wonder?
 

Zinegata

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Paulus could've easily broken out, because the Soviets didn't realize the magnitude of the pocket. They estimated 100.000 Axis troops encircled. Had Paulus broken out in full force immediately, the Soviets would have been overwhelmed.

When it was too late to break out, the 6th army had to hold out to enable the Caucasus army group to retreat. A capitulation of the Stalingrad pocket a month earlier would have caused the destruction of the entire army group. Paulus would have single-handedly decided the war. Considering his later treachery (working for the Commies in Eastern Germany), it was a wonder that he didn't do that.

The Soviets underestimating the size of the pocket and 6th Army still having enough fuel and transport to actually breakout are two very different things. At best 6th Army would have had to leave the wounded and a good chunk of the infantry behind.
 

Zinegata

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I agree that splitting the AG in 2 was just a disaster waiting to happen, which did lead to the Caucasus rout. But there is something to consider: Hitler did order Paulus to stand and fight. This is not mythos, but proven fact. Paulus should have just broken out and pulled back the moment he saw the stormclouds gather, regardless of orders. He didn't, and Von Manstein had to try breaking them out, further weakening his forces. Did it have an effect on the rout? I don't know. It could have.

D Inqui has covered in more detail why the breakout was closer to mass suicide than a real option, and that "breaking out" would have given the Soviets the Stalingrad railhub back which was a huge plus on its own, but the other problem is that you're essentially spending what's left of 4th Panzer Army to make the breakthrough possible in the first place. 4th Panzer Army's tanks can't just stop short of the city and then run away like they did historically - now they'd have to sheperd the 6th Army survivors and try to reach the Don with the Soviets nipping at their heels.

And really, having wargame'd the Third Kharkov scenario several times, spending 4th Panzer Army on this fool's errand will likely cause the whole front to collapse and get 1st Panzer Army trapped in the Caucasus - because the Germans simply had no real army left in the south other than 4th Panzer Army once the Hungarians, Italians, and Romanians get overrun. As it stood 4th Panzer Army may very have been overrun during Little Saturn if the Germans didn't pull them out as quickly as they did.

The real issue with Third Kharkov again is that the Soviets overstretched themselves and had overly ambitious objectives. Their ultimate objective - Zaproche - was on the western side of the Dnieper river, meaning that the Soviets actually had to cross three major rivers (the Volga, the Don, and the Dnieper) to reach their objectives, which is highly ambitious to say the least when the Western Allies already had trouble just crosshing the Rhine. Historically, the Soviets ended up with a frontline mostly along the Don river after Manstein's counter-attack anyway.

And in my wargaming experience (Nakamura's "A Victory Lost"), the Soviets will always reach the Don no matter how slowly or conservatively they "play" - the force ratio is simply that bad for the overstretched Germans - but to cross the Don you have to take big risks like sending entire Tank Armies forward largely unsupported and in danger of being cut off and surrounded.

Indeed, the first time I won Third Kharkov as the Soviets left the German player completely appalled by my actions - since I was sending multiple unsupported Tank Corps out alone to seize vital bridges and cross roads; the majority of which were savaged and wiped out by German counter-attacks. But one Tank Corps managed to reach Rostov before 1st Panzer Army did (I followed an ahistorical battleplan that forgo'd attacking Kharkov in favor of pushing to Rostov) and held the line, which pretty much doomed the German player when 1st Panzer Army died.
 
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