Best first national idea for Holland?

[unmerged(371738)]

I always get NTP first as Holland. I don't mind sending cash into heavily penalized tech...everyone knows it's quite possible to get 10+ tech levels ahead of the AI in your tech group, so it can't be a 'waste', even if it takes time to play out.

QFTNW is quite a valid option, too.

 

[grommile]

Church Attendance Duty for as long as it takes to build a church and get enough ducats for Gilded Iconography. Then replace it with NTP (more delicious income) until Trade 7, then QftNW (at least until you've grabbed the Canarias, Madeira, and the three inhabited coastal provinces in the Creek-Cherokee-Shawnee area).

 

[unmerged(106498)]

Millitary drill is very good for enforcing all those PU's you need to get out of the way and all that.

 

[unmerged(20902)]

Millitary drill is very good for enforcing all those PU's you need to get out of the way and all that.

I agree! Your first wars are small things, but with more provinces you have plentys of opportunities. You can get emperor with 5 Coreprinces in Holland. The only problem with Holland is that you get a Queen.

 

[Arentak]

You said it champ: ways, as in plural. You can play Holland as a continental power exactly as effective as a trader.

And I've done it, but I did it as a trading continental power. The only thing you gotta watch is taking CoT's you don't have a core on. You can probably afford to do ONE of those, if you don't have trade NI's, and maybe TWO non-cored CoT's if you do.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

Ok, as Holland, I like to explode early. If you want to expand very slowly, colonize a ton, then sure, NTP, QFTNW are good. For me, I break alliance day one. Ask for mil access from Burgandy. Build troops. As soon as timer expires, wardec Hanuit. Break PU, get new king. Don't vassalize or you'll be at war with Burgandy soon, but occupy for sure. Vassalize any allies he calls in that are not on the normal Burgundian target list in the first 20 years. Get every drop of Prestige and money you can. Do this fairly quickly and the war will be over before the first Bohemian troops arrive. Peace out when you need to, you should be 100% no matter what since you occupy Hanuit. Buy a legitimacy guy and a prestige guy. RM with people you don't care about in the long term, Naples, Irish minors, etc to boost your legit. RM the ppl you want to force PU and do so. Within the first 20 years, you're tech leader in all categories and with Mil drill, have no problem mopping up all the chumps nearby. Once you've got a few countries in PU's and a few vassals, your BB might be a bit high, but as it comes down, your tradiness goes up. You start the trade game a decade or two later, but you have a nice inheritance comming now, and you're in possition to start grabbing provinces from Burgandy as soon as they fight France. If France already beat them up, you don't need to wait. By 1450, you should already be unstoppable using this method.

 

[herrhals]

First and always first idea should be military drill, second for navy countries idea for morale for navies - i forgott name. Rest what you want. As Holland propably quest for new world to start colonization. And its 11 goverment technology you need and plus 7 in trade.

This is probably the worst advice in this thread. Sorry, but this is really poor.
Also, you can start exploring as soon as you hit gov4/trade7 tech.

Military Drill wont be much help until you can raise a larger army. Even with Drill, youll still be flattened by any of your neighbours that arent a walkover. They can simply swamp you with numbers.

This is exactly why Military drill is a poor poor choice.

Millitary drill is very good for enforcing all those PU's you need to get out of the way and all that.

In what way do you need military drill to enforce PU's on opms or 2pms? This is ridiculous. Even if you get to fight Burgundy, you will not have a chance anyways, so why bother with military drill?



National bank or NTP are the first 2 national ideas Holland takes, in whatever order. There is no discussion. These two will be swapped out for QftNW if that is the plan, and after exploring, QftNW will be swapped back for one of the two. Ecumenism is a good third/fourth choice [depending on if you can get the fourth slot before reformation].

 

[unmerged(205402)]

Anyone have own tactic, mainly than you fast unite Nederlands, so military drill with good commander is life and dead in conflict with bigger countries, than you hunt down they stucks one by one. And high morale help a lot. If someone prefer slow advance as Holland you propably just fall under bloobing France. With high morale you conquere provinces mainly in one assault also.

 

[DoomBunny]

Yes, but if you go up against a country you would lose to anyway, Drill isnt going to help.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

I would so much prefer to have 1 extra morale on my 2 infantry sitting at 0% maintenance than make an extra 5-10 ducats a month.

 

[DoomBunny]

But that extra income will allow you to build a bigger army. Whereas the military drill will only help you beat nations you could beat anyway. If one of the big boys comes a knocking then your pretty much screwed anyway.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

If one of the big boys comes a knocking then your pretty much screwed anyway.

They almost never do. You're off culture from Burgundy and France and an HRE member to boot. Burgundy won't get the 'vassalize Holland' mission like France might, and if France gets it you'll have the Emperor at your back. It's all about building up a massive nest egg and THEN going on a spending spree when you have CBs to fulfill.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

But that extra income will allow you to build a bigger army. Whereas the military drill will only help you beat nations you could beat anyway. If one of the big boys comes a knocking then your pretty much screwed anyway.

Not entirely true.
Morale can be a war winner, more important than a somewhat bigger army. If you make a few bad rolls in a row as a minor, your army is usually done for. Drill saved my behind several times.

 

[unmerged(202023)]

Not entirely true.
Morale can be a war winner, more important than a somewhat bigger army. If you make a few bad rolls in a row as a minor, your army is usually done for. Drill saved my behind several times.

Military Drill is a bad general choice for one reason: As Holland you can always quickly switch to it at the beginning of a conflict as the stab costs are neglectable. So I'd rather have the extra income during peace times AND military drill during serious wars.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

Military Drill is a bad general choice for one reason: As Holland you can always quickly switch to it at the beginning of a conflict as the stab costs are neglectable. So I'd rather have the extra income during peace times AND military drill during serious wars.

I think you have a totally different vision of 'war' in mind. I try to force PU/vassalize everything in the HRE, especially the German region, to later form Germany. High BB will make trading problematic, so replace that income with a pile of vassals. Once I'm done marking out this chunk of turf, you gotta wait a while for infamy to cool down, plenty of time to have 2-3 ideas. You can hit Gov 9 by 1415 pretty easily as Holland for your second idea, not like you can't do it then.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

I think you have a totally different vision of 'war' in mind. I try to force PU/vassalize everything in the HRE, especially the German region, to later form Germany. High BB will make trading problematic, so replace that income with a pile of vassals. Once I'm done marking out this chunk of turf, you gotta wait a while for infamy to cool down, plenty of time to have 2-3 ideas. You can hit Gov 9 by 1415 pretty easily as Holland for your second idea, not like you can't do it then.

Running around vassalizing people as Holland really isn't the right way to go about it, and PUs are infamy-free. If you really want vassals, just do it diplomatically when you have enough SOI.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

Running around vassalizing people as Holland really isn't the right way to go about it, and PUs are infamy-free. If you really want vassals, just do it diplomatically when you have enough SOI.

You can't PU countries with no King, like the one right next door, Utrecht. About half of the countries in north-west Europe are non-PU-able, thus vassalize. If you -can- PU them, then do so of course, but vassalizing is usually a much faster integration unless you're very lucky. I have 2 'form Prussia' games going, one Brandenburg (mostly PU's) one TO (all vassals) and TO is over halfway to forming Germany in the first 50 years, Brandenburg at the same stop point has yet to inherit one country.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

You can't PU countries with no King, like the one right next door, Utrecht. About half of the countries in north-west Europe are non-PU-able, thus vassalize. If you -can- PU them, then do so of course, but vassalizing is usually a much faster integration unless you're very lucky. I have 2 'form Prussia' games going, one Brandenburg (mostly PU's) one TO (all vassals) and TO is over halfway to forming Germany in the first 50 years, Brandenburg at the same stop point has yet to inherit one country.

If you're playing Holland you will 100% get the 'claims on our rivals' event for cores on Gelre, Friesland, Utrecht, and Brabant/Breda. It never fails. I've never once had to eat a single point of infamy to form the NL. What you want to do inside the HRE beyond that point is up to you, but why sabotage your trade when you're the only nation on the planet that has such an advantage? If you really want to vassalize voters, that can be beneficial, but you can do that whenever. 4 points of infamy can be brushed off rather quickly. If you go much higher than that you kill your own income stream.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

If you're playing Holland you will 100% get the 'claims on our rivals' event for cores on Gelre, Friesland, Utrecht, and Brabant/Breda. It never fails. I've never once had to eat a single point of infamy to form the NL. What you want to do inside the HRE beyond that point is up to you, but why sabotage your trade when you're the only nation on the planet that has such an advantage? If you really want to vassalize voters, that can be beneficial, but you can do that whenever. 4 points of infamy can be brushed off rather quickly. If you go much higher than that you kill your own income stream.

Playing on VH, DW 5.1, I have never gotten claims on our rivals in the first 5-10 years, and I've already eaten that far by then. As I said, you have a different vision of expansion as Holland than I do. I cancel alliance day one, wardec Hanuit as soon as it refreshes, and... well I already explained this earlier in the thread. I've usually already got 3-4 vassals by the time 10 years has passed, and RM'd lots of unimportant countries to get legit up enough to force PU's. As soon as I hit 50 legit, the PU forcing begins, more vassals added if any of his defending allies can't be PU'd. You should have most of the German region PU'd or vassalized in the first 50 years. You'll get missions to annex vassals that give cores, but you'll still need max infamy reduction from taking so many vassals. Your income will be crazy high from all the vassals, but you won't be able to trade because of BB for a while. Thus... Mil drill > NTP. If you play passively, then sure, NTP.

 

[The Blood Eagle]

No one's stopping you, but the game is 420 years long, you don't need to be so impatient that by 1410 you're already the bane of Europe. If you really want out of the PU on day one, keep starting over and centralizing as your first slider move until you get pretenders. Unless you want Bohemia to sent 15k troops your way. You don't owe Hainut income, so simply dissolving the alliance and waiting for Burgundy to annex them should be simple enough.

Vassals for income? Please. Don't even start attempting to tell me it's even comparable to what you can gain through trade.

Anyway, I'm the guy who says NTP is a bad idea, but not nearly as bad of an idea as MD is.