Best Ethos & Government for Science build?

[Yenzen]

I disagree, since there is a level cap at 5 (they reached it pretty fast in the streams imo, even when you take blorg lifespan into consideration) it seems sorta futile to trade "reach level cap faster" with "more output overall"

The Blorg are venerable and most leaders would have been replaced twice or exec thrice for other species. It seems like reaching the 5-star cap for tenured scientists will be hard and they would spend less time on that level.

I also do want to point out that intelligent may be overrated as super crucial for a science build - what if you get agrarian instead and hence need two less farms and build labs in their stead?

 

[Jastebro]

I'm going for fanatic materialists, collectivists, decadent & sedientary, intelligent and agrarian. WIth a science directorate as the governing body. Having a scientist as leader hopefully means further research bonuses.
The agrarian bonus means that the slaves will produce more food using fewer tiles, which in turn means more space for techlabs.

 

[TheGrinningMan]

I disagree, since there is a level cap at 5 (they reached it pretty fast in the streams imo, even when you take blorg lifespan into consideration) it seems sorta futile to trade "reach level cap faster" with "more output overall"

Good point; Mercedes did rise up the ranks pretty quickly. Still, I feel like she was pretty old by conventional standards when she hit that fifth star... the venerable Blorg aren't a perfect standard to measure by, it's easy to forgot how the decades fly by for them. So I still stand by "will require testing and experimentation".

Then again, that makes me think: maybe Enduring might make a worthwhile investment. Hear me out: certain tech require scientists with specific traits. For instance, I gather there's a trait for mad scientist types, and a Fanatic Materialist can't touch the psionics without a researcher that has psychic potential. Enduring allows the scientists with those vital traits to live longer and get more research into those esoteric fields done. This, however, depends on how necessary those traits are in the long run; if, once a psychic materialist picks up the opening techs of that area, the rest get shuffled into the deck with a reasonably high probability, you can ignore the entire previous paragraph.

(In case you can't tell, I'm a sucker for trying to find non-obvious synergies. This has historically had mixed results.)

 

[moglus]

Why xenophile? While the description seems a bit scientific the only related gameplay we have seen seems to be the opposite. Xenophobe allows aggressive observation giving more science from observations stations or whatever they are called if I recall correctly.

So i can uplift two other species that are "Natural Sociologists/Engineers" for maximum efficiency of lab outputs, and because it adds stability to my inevitably diverse empire.

 

[moglus]

The Blorg are venerable and most leaders would have been replaced twice or exec thrice for other species. It seems like reaching the 5-star cap for tenured scientists will be hard and they would spend less time on that level.

I also do want to point out that intelligent may be overrated as super crucial for a science build - what if you get agrarian instead and hence need two less farms and build labs in their stead?

I have pondered that as well, which is why i am going for xenophilia so i can integrate/uplift races with desirable traits to make my empire run as efficiently as possible. But my own race is going to focus as hard on pure science as possible

 

[Yenzen]

I have pondered that as well, which is why i am going for xenophilia so i can integrate/uplift races with desirable traits to make my empire run as efficiently as possible. But my own race is going to focus as hard on pure science as possible

Yeh. My point is that overall "Science heavy" builds will even out somewhat in terms of science with other governments, that do the opposite and up with 'geek aliens' to do science for them, and hyper effective X to give them room to build more labs.

I think it's far more important to center ethos and traits and even government on what you want your faction to be. Do you want your species to be run by a scientific committee - then yes, pick science directorate (though I think you may come to regret that, I've had to endure listening to a staff meeting at a faculty *shudder*).

However, you could also make a science heavy build with intelligent and natural sociologists species, which governed run by a moral democracy for the betterment of the galaxy. The extra happiness could mean that everything, including scientist POP tiles, works more efficiently, and internal peace means les resources spent on quelling rebellion and more is spent on SCIENCE.

Meanwhile, if you want your POP to be more standoffish yet scientific, you could create an xenophobic, materialistic, solitary, talented, natural physicists race, who decides to build their own android to keep them company, rather than having to deal with the foreign and disgusting biological xenos... or others of the same species :-(.

Eeh, the long and short of what I'm saying is "go with RP, not the highest apparent science modifier".

 

[macd21]

Science Directorate - while the +5% bonus for the Despots may be nice, I'd say having a Scientist as a leader will probably net you at least that, + the extra research choice. In addition, having the extra research option will mean you're more likely to get to pick ones that further boost research.

Xenophile - will hopefully boost chance of getting research agreements with your neighbours.

 

[moglus]

Yeh. My point is that overall "Science heavy" builds will even out somewhat in terms of science with other governments, that do the opposite and up with 'geek aliens' to do science for them, and hyper effective X to give them room to build more labs.

Eeh, the long and short of what I'm saying is "go with RP, not the highest apparent science modifier".

But if i'm playing as a technocracy (which it is for all intents and purposes) scientists are the ruling class, so don't i want MY race to be the ruling class for RP?
(also i am trying to make the most optimal science nation that's the entire point of my posts in this thread )

 

[Yenzen]

But if i'm playing as a technocracy (which it is for all intents and purposes) scientist are the ruling class, so don't i want MY race to be the ruling class for RP
(also i am trying to make the most optimal science nation that's the entire point of my posts in this thread )

The problem with making an "optimal" anything is that sometimes the indirect way is the best way. It seems to me that high science progress also greatly depends on happy POPs, having resources to run the labs, specialized POPs (three X "natural X if possible), good leaders to gain the bonuses from your science vessels, being able to have more leaders, etc, etc etc.

I sincerely believe that full-on, nothing-but-science focus nations with fanatical materialism, intelligent and natural X trait, along with one of the two "super research" governments, might be less overall "optimal" than sacrificing the bonus of one thing to gain a more wide approach, and thereby do better to avoid early and late internal unrest and have generally happier subjects.

Take my example with the moral democracy. Maybe all the resources saved from internal unrest and the increased output due to overall more happiness and less resources spent due to more efficient farms, matters more to help increase research than -5% research time?

 

[samin]

(also i am trying to make the most optimal science nation that's the entire point of my posts in this thread )

Realistically you'll have to play a game or two to really make that decision. It's just not clear what kind of impact factors like happiness or pop growth have on an 'optimal science nation'. If you're not going for a science flavor but for actually "best science output", maybe an adaptive/communal build would outproduce an intelligent build in a large empire because of the improved happiness. But we just don't know these details yet and they'll probably take time to really emerge after release (even with some people getting review copies)

But one thing I see very undervalued in this thread is military. Remember, that studying wrecks from combat will give you research boosts or entirely new techs. So being able to wreck face shouldn't be ignored either. Also you can't research if you're being forced into a tiny corner of the galaxy by a big bully.

Also, I thought Intelligent can't be combined with the specific research trait?

 

[Turin the Mad]

I disagree, since there is a level cap at 5 (they reached it pretty fast in the streams imo, even when you take blorg lifespan into consideration) it seems sorta futile to trade "reach level cap faster" with "more output overall"

Attain level 5 fastest. +25% science on planet x. Depends on how one's research is going and perhaps where in the "game progress" one has attained I suppose. A research-specialized planet in a small empire seems likely to exceed the science output in the rest of an empire. If nothing else, a great many gameplay experiments will show the potential.

Level 5 scientists attained fast gives better anomaly completion chances and presumably the fastest survey speeds, along with whatever other benefits are derived from level 5 scientists. It is possible to start all of your leaders at skill level 3 (indirect democracy gov't & talented trait each adding +1) without much effort. Perhaps it takes level 5 scientists to decipher the "best" wreckage ("other" FTL drive shipwrecks when you don't have that tech seems a likely candidate) with a decent degree of success.

In a larger empire with capped out sectors this seems to be of reduced or negligible benefit when the entire empire/federation/etc is taken into account. It takes awhile to get there. Presumably a more mid-to-late game gov't type has been discovered that swaps out the skill level goodies for even nastier global goodies.

Details remain rather sparse at present.

Edit: I don't know that Intelligent blocks out the other speciality traits, only that they block each other out - you only get one of them.

Edit 2: Level 3 leaders across the board give you the benefit of that level across all leader types. Governors, Admirals and Generals as well as Scientists. The entire empire benefits in many ways from a highly skilled race it seems.

Edit 3: Tentatively speaking, it seems a Talented Quick Learning Slow Breeding race with the ethos of (anything but collectivist/fanatic collectivist) permitting Indirect Democracy balances pretty well.

 

[moglus]

The problem with making an "optimal" anything is that sometimes the indirect way is the best way. It seems to me that high science progress also greatly depends on happy POPs, having resources to run the labs, specialized POPs (three X "natural X if possible), good leaders to gain the bonuses from your science vessels, being able to have more leaders, etc, etc etc.

I sincerely believe that full-on, nothing-but-science focus nations with fanatical materialism, intelligent and natural X trait, along with one of the two "super research" governments, might be less overall "optimal" than sacrificing the bonus of one thing to gain a more wide approach, and thereby do better to avoid early and late internal unrest and have generally happier subjects.

Take my example with the moral democracy. Maybe all the resources saved from internal unrest and the increased output due to overall more happiness and less resources spent due to more efficient farms, matters more to help increase research than -5% research time?

The problem i have with your approach here is that you make the assumption that "going wide" is desirable at all, internal unrest would only be a problem in a mismanaged or large nation which is just far from optimal for a strictly science focused nation...

Realistically you'll have to play a game or two to really make that decision. It's just not clear what kind of impact factors like happiness or pop growth have on an 'optimal science nation'.

Actually we pretty much do, someone on the wiki did the math based off of the streams and screenshots and the conclusion is:

"Its a simple +2% for every POP beyond the first 10. Meaning that 10 population yields 100% cost, 42 population a 164% cost, 95 pop a 270% cost."
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Talk:Technology

Also, I thought Intelligent can't be combined with the specific research trait?

It can. Only the 3 variants of "Natural bla/bli/blu" can't be combined with each other.

 

[chopak]

The problem with making an "optimal" anything is that sometimes the indirect way is the best way. It seems to me that high science progress also greatly depends on happy POPs, having resources to run the labs, specialized POPs (three X "natural X if possible), good leaders to gain the bonuses from your science vessels, being able to have more leaders, etc, etc etc.

I sincerely believe that full-on, nothing-but-science focus nations with fanatical materialism, intelligent and natural X trait, along with one of the two "super research" governments, might be less overall "optimal" than sacrificing the bonus of one thing to gain a more wide approach, and thereby do better to avoid early and late internal unrest and have generally happier subjects.

Take my example with the moral democracy. Maybe all the resources saved from internal unrest and the increased output due to overall more happiness and less resources spent due to more efficient farms, matters more to help increase research than -5% research time?

Please consider that when you depend on alien pops you will probably have much more pops. And each pop decreases research speed.

 

[hellehunde]

Thanx to all the fantastic replies I'm analyzing them as we speak.

 

[Kohnas]

I am considering going something a little Tau-ish

Militarist
Materialist
Xenophile

Science Directorate

Enduring
Intelligent
Weak

It isn't the heaviest science build, but leaves room to role play or just adapt better when surrounded by multiple empire I would hope. My concern would be having too many ethos types. It still should be a fun way to play or a fun way to lose and learn.