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May 17, 2005
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Yes its that time again, to attempt the insane job of WC....

Going to give England another crack...what are the best sliders?

Definately going with

1 - Aristocracy = dip bonus and cheaper cav

2 - Narrowminded = lower stab and colonists

3 - Free Trade = More colonists

4 - Offensive = obvious benefits

5 - Naval = colonists, overseas tax bonus, trade bonus

6 - Serfdom = cheap stab

ones Im not sure of are...

1 - central/decentral ....decentral has lower war exhaustion benefits which look nice, but doesnt high central decrease the likely hood of civil war?

2 - Quantity/quality...should I just go quantity...I aim on having the best troops when world wars kick off anyway...


Other sugestions are most welcome....
 

Skarion

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I agree with most except:

5 - Naval = colonists, overseas tax bonus, trade bonus

6 - Serfdom = cheap stab

I usualy go about 40% Land and not fully to naval (But that's just me)

And I usualy go with 0% Serfdom as I like the bonuses in research and economy much more then stability (Which I get anyhow when BB wars kicks in).

1 - central/decentral ....decentral has lower war exhaustion benefits which look nice, but doesnt high central decrease the likely hood of civil war?

High centralisation always pwnz everyone's azzez.

2 - Quantity/quality...should I just go quantity...I aim on having the best troops when world wars kick off anyway...

Always go Quality, always.
 

unmerged(36826)

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Quality undoubtly, centra is best although this slider can be left to drift whilst you get the other more important ones in place, as random events always conspire against it.

And totally serfdom is indeed a good idea :cool:
 
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aristocracy=10...of course (diplomats)
narrowminded=0 ...of course (missionaries to eliminate religions asap)
free trade/mercantilism: not relevant for WC
centralization high is nice but not important.
Land=10. You want MP and you want lots of. You don't need many colonists for WC (unless you want to colonize the world)
offensive=9: in SP you don't need cheap fortress (since you'll never build a fortress), shock bonus is important.
quantity=2: more MP. You don't need more morale (you already have full land+offensive) to beat the AI but more MP is useful.
serfdom = 5. If you're higher than 5 you get additional chances for unhappyness among peasantry.

These are the settings I try to get when I go for an early WC.
 
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May 17, 2005
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Thanks for all your thoughts

Perhaps I may go full land, I suppose colonizing aint really the aim and the added troops would be far more handy than added money

I dont think morale will be a problem, as I will probably be advanced in tech anyway, thats why I was thinking quanity - for the added troops

@Nebukadnezar, why just quantity 2, why not 1 or 0 for that matter?

serfdom 5 to avoid some bad events...I must admit I got a damn lot of those in my last attempt and they were a real pain...

@all - does high centralization help against civil wars>? does decentral really help that much with WE...I guess Im not really concerned about the money side of things as I believe I will have that well inhand by looting and by building manufactories....

I suppose Id be looking at about 1700s to kick off the BB wars..
 
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The Real Deal said:
@Nebukadnezar, why just quantity 2, why not 1 or 0 for that matter?
Like Dr.Bob posted: to avoid the malus to fire.

The Real Deal said:
serfdom 5 to avoid some bad events...I must admit I got a damn lot of those in my last attempt and they were a real pain...
...and these events might happen just when you don't want them :D
The Real Deal said:
@all - does high centralization help against civil wars>? does decentral really help that much with WE...I guess Im not really concerned about the money side of things as I believe I will have that well inhand by looting and by building manufactories....
The readme.txt says that the likelyness of civil wars to happen is decreased at max centra. I don't think that anyone knows to what degree.
WE: Learn to fight wars with low WE.
Civil war: try to stay at war whenever you have staby<1
The Real Deal said:
I suppose Id be looking at about 1700s to kick off the BB wars..
That's very late, so some slider moves for more colonists might be more fun for you. Otherwise you won't have much to do until 1700 besides annexing&converting pagans and doing some diploannexions.
 
May 17, 2005
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Dr Bob said:
Quantity 0 and 1 gives -1 fire to all commanders

Cheers, I wont be going so low then :D

Nebukadnezar said:
Like Dr.Bob posted: to avoid the malus to fire.


...and these events might happen just when you don't want them :D

The readme.txt says that the likelyness of civil wars to happen is decreased at max centra. I don't think that anyone knows to what degree.
WE: Learn to fight wars with low WE.
Civil war: try to stay at war whenever you have staby<1

That's very late, so some slider moves for more colonists might be more fun for you. Otherwise you won't have much to do until 1700 besides annexing&converting pagans and doing some diploannexions.

I am trying to learn the facets of WE, how to keep it low etc. Im now painfully aware of the benefits of staying at war when low stab :D

I think I would prefer later so that I can have plenty of conscription centres and land 60.

Im going to try playing where I only take provs in defensive wars or diplo annexes, to keep BB down while trying to take as much provs as possible, i hope to suck the ai in to attacking me by keeping troop numbers down....this is all before BB wars of course...
 

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The Real Deal said:
I think I would prefer later so that I can have plenty of conscription centres and land 60.
If you intend to start the BB-wars after building conscription centres, you will probably already have lots of manpower and an economy far greater than anybody else, so you might as well go for full quality and naval.

Also, am I the only one who likes going defensive? Sure, the shock bonus would be nice, but I'm usually doing far more siegeing than fighting.
 
May 17, 2005
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idont said:
If you intend to start the BB-wars after building conscription centres, you will probably already have lots of manpower and an economy far greater than anybody else, so you might as well go for full quality and naval.

Of course I'll have huge MP and massive economy :D , doesnt land 60 cancel any morale boosts from DP sliders...I thought it did...for I thought there was a maximum morale, so quality would be obsolete as it has no other benefits...

idont said:
Also, am I the only one who likes going defensive? Sure, the shock bonus would be nice, but I'm usually doing far more siegeing than fighting.

I am going defensive in a game with Venice atm, though 99% of the time its offensive...
 

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idont said:
Also, am I the only one who likes going defensive? Sure, the shock bonus would be nice, but I'm usually doing far more siegeing than fighting.

Keep in mind seige attrition, especially where it snows as General Winter will quite efficiently exterminate your armies. Africa, Tibet and asia minor can also be particularly bad.
 

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The Real Deal said:
Of course I'll have huge MP and massive economy :D , doesnt land 60 cancel any morale boosts from DP sliders...I thought it did...for I thought there was a maximum morale, so quality would be obsolete as it has no other benefits...
I know the relative effect decreases as you get more morale from tech, but I didn't know there was a maximum. Does it also apply to other bonuses like religion and Defender of the Faith?
Full - well, 9 or up - quality also gives +1 fire for all leaders.
Qilue said:
Keep in mind seige attrition, especially where it snows as General Winter will quite efficiently exterminate your armies. Africa, Tibet and asia minor can also be particularly bad.
Right, so wouldn't you want your sieges to be faster, and your enemies slower?
Also, thanks to people like ws2_32, we can learn tricks like bouncing cavalry to reduce attrition.
 

unmerged(56576)

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Get always to maximum serfdom and minimum innovative as they reduce the size penalties and the stab cost up to 70% or more. So, say you're already big and your stab cost would be 8000: just about 6000 in stab costs are cut down because of the serfdom and narrowminded bonus. Or else you could try a professional challenge and set the slider to full innovative :).
 

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Why not Mercantilism? You should have plenty of merchants no matter what, easily getting the max of 12/year. Free bans are nice, and that little bit of extra merchant "stickiness" would help a bit when you've got lots of BB.
 

unmerged(56576)

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Bans are simply not worth it; it is just better to get more colonists. I often never ban anyone from my CoT's in the game, even if they refuse to trade.
 

Jomini

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Obvious settings:
Full Aristo - you can never have too many diplos coming in.

Full Narrow - you have latin tech and can either win the tech race early or just wait to reach critical mass (I have managed to have fully narrowminded exotics leading the tech race). Missionaries however are simply too useful to convert pagans (making it easier to raise large armies in the Americas and Africa), eliminate religious RR and to even convert a few key eastern provinces for recruitment purposes. Colonists are useful for lessoning the chances of enemy CoTs from spawning and building up economy, support limits, and recruitment potential; particularly when you are not at war.

Full Free trade - CoTs in enemy colonies are bad. Due to their high WS value it can significantly delay the time in which it takes to fully annex a colonizing state, which in turn can delay your conquest of other areas. My rule of thumb is that every CoT the enemy controls it increases the number of BB rounds to annex them by half a round. *

Full offensive - shock rules early combat and by the time you need arty you can afford it in droves. By and large fortifications are not cost effective enough to turn down the shock. Even in the late game utterly decimating the enemy forces so you can seige the enemy at will (particularly to control AI peace offers) is far better than faster seiges.

Good choices:

Full centra - 25% tax in provinces with no tax collectors and no cores is very nice income when painting the world. Tech costs are also improved, this can normally wait (espescially with England) though. I don't know enough about the most recent patch to speak to events which is my main concern (WS management is simply a must regardless).

Quantity is normally superior to quality - much of your combat will eventually be against rebels where morale will not matter and it becomes a question of how many loyalists you can raise to fight how many rebels (particularly in a civil war).

Toss-up:
Naval/Land - Land makes conquest easier, particularly early conquest and the MP helps late vs rebels. Naval on the other hand is great for colonists, and economy.

Serfdom/Free subjects - Serfdom is cheap soldiers and cheaper stab, but it comes with nasty events and lower production. By the late game I much prefer free subjects - no more horrid peasant events and better production/morale. Sure my troops cost more, but I normally have sufficient cash to drain my MP pool without breaking a sweat. Indeed if mercs are there for use, those can be drained as well.

I would suggest seeking in order - aristo or off, then whichever way you want with naval/land and narrow, and follow that up with serf/free or quantity, and finish off with free trade.

The easiest way to pull off a WC, particularly as a European, is to annex the Inca and Aztec. After that, most of your income problems will be a thing of the past, once you acheive trade dominance to any signficant degree you will no longer care excessively about how much things costs, but rather what hard limits do you run into. In general you want sliders to max the quantity of what you can get - diplos, missionaries, colonists, MP, and to a far lesser extent merchants rather than how much it costs.



*Early colonial CoTs, particularly if undefended, can prove quite useful at racking up WS and normally can be counted on to collapse prior to the total annexation of the colonial power. It is only in the final century of the game that this is a major issue. If you have a particular problem with a colonial AI spawning a burdensome number of CoTs you can often negate the issue by engineering a turbo annexation, but that is often FAR more hassle than I want to put up with.
 
Jun 28, 2005
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Obviously, aiming for a WC doesn't require the same DP-sliders than aiming for economic dominance.

In order, you need :
- Aristocracy : since you're gone for a late-game WC, you need to maximize the number of provinces you'll take prior to it. The full pluto-aristo difference means you can conquer one more province each decade of game : if you go WC in 1770, you've got 300 years to prepare, and going full aristo means you get 30 more provinces to adequately position yourself. For an average country (average 'natural' DIP 4 for the monarchs), it's tripling the number of provinces you'll get if you go aristo than if you go pluto, or a total of 45 provinces gained on average whose BB is reduced, + 30-40 more provinces to approach the threshold. Then, it's around 80 provinces forcibly taken, mainly in Europe. That represents the whole HRE + Italy + France + Netherlands.
- Centralization : you're gonna be narrowminded & serfdom & aristo, so TE & PE will already be low, so you need to enhance TE&PE a bit in the other sliders. Moreover, it helps a bit for your techs, to partially offset the narrowminded penalty.
No worry for the War Exhaustion : BBWars are conducted in "rounds" of one and a half year on average with a peace of four years (at least), so your WE doesn't have time to go through the roof.
- Narrowminded, advantages only : stabcosts decrease (your BB'll be high, so you need to be able to reduce stabcosts of whatever manner you can so you can get to positive value in case you fall down), much more colonists (you need to be big if you want to be successful, especially if you can colonize Siberia and/or Africa with a land connection ; from 1500 to 1750, full narrowminded represents a thousand more colonists : with a average success rate of 50%, this gives you 50 more provinces brought to colonial city size at least, or more if you let the natives join), much more missionaries (to wipe out a religion beforehand : again, from 1500 to 1750, it's 500 more missionaries who may convert a hundred wrong-culture provinces : enough to wipe out protestantism & orthodoxism, and I'm not even counting the +1 or +2/year of catholicism/CRC).
- Free-Trade : reason is straightforward, again it's for the colonists. You'll get two more colonists every year, and so a 1550-1750 (I take that you fix that slider later than narrowminded) makes for 400 more colonists, or 20 provinces.
- Offensive : well, this one is not obvious. Defensive is as well-founded as Offensive, because after 1750 you don't have to worry for your battles, as your techs are way ahead those of the AI (especially if there're no other independent european country around. See my example below), and the +1 to Siege may greatly accelerate your sieges ; but you could as well, and should often, assault the cities, so neither Siege nor Shock are as important as earlier in the campaign.
- Naval : same as narrowminded and free-trade, colonists matter. Three additional colonists per year, this makes 600 colonists in two centuries, or thirty provinces colonized. Manpower doesn't matter much, with your high tech and you big economy you may build a quantity of weapons manufactories and conscription centers, and siberian and african colonies help a lot, so your army will be big anyhow. Also, Naval helps your TE (PE is already helped by Centralism). And as a side-note, you need many ships to ferry your armies (ships are way faster than armies later on).
- Quality : you don't need the numbers, that's what colonies, CC and manus are for. And you'll doing a lots of assaults, so you need a high enough morale (and as you're already losing the bonus for Land, and gaining the penalty of Serfdom). No worry for the costs, your economy can take it.
- Serfdom : there's one big advantage : stabcosts. Between Serfdom, Narrowminded, and fifty (50) FAAs, your stabcosts should stay manageable. Why that focus on stabcosts ? Because of the changes brought in 1.09, which make Civil Wars more frequent with high BB. You need to get at stab +1 as fast as possible. You even need to get at stab +3 as fast as possible, as this avoids the risk of triggering CW with just one -1 or -2 stab random event. Don't hesitate to throw money in stability to get it up : you won't get more than one random event per year, so you can count on having one year to offset the effects of a random event that brought you at +1 or +2. But "luckily" (or "unluckily"), you probably won't get many random events, as 1°) CTDs happen more often late-game IMO, and 2°) the time it takes you to manage the BBWars leads to months of game that take you several hours of play, and you'll need to rest and sleep. So, unless you pass days-long before your computer, you should avoid many random events.



Now, what country should you play to get a really easy WC, and how to prepare for it ? I bet you're already good at EU2, and so you know how to play Byzantium and conquering all your cores for minimal BB and few inflation. So, do it. Turn catholic, and get italian culture. Stay catholic. Orthodox techgroup is not a great penalty. Prevent Russia of forming, and either conquer the russian provinces, or let a catholic conquer it (Poland-Lithuania could, if you help it). Convert all orthodox provinces. Do the same to reformed provinces when they appear, and if possible to protestant ones. Don't let missionaries go unused, and convert muslims or other provinces (preferably muslims) if you have the possibility. Make sure England stays catholic (you'll need a war or two in the XVIth century, force-converting them and taking protestant provinces, then converting them and giving them back later). If possible, do the same with Scandinavia, but more probably you'll have to lead the other catholic powers to wage war in the north, and make Scandinavia a possession of a mix of countries.
Colonize Siberia and Africa, and get high MP. Conquer the whole of the HRE, Italy, France and the Netherlands (before the latter do any colonization). And colonize India (you know how to get those maps as early as the mid-1420's, do you ?).
With Narro+FT+Naval+catholic+frontier bonus+shipyard, it makes you 9 colonists every year : you'll easily be able to fully colonize at least a hundred provinces. Add those to your cores and the 80-or-so provinces you conquer, this'll make you start your WC with already over 200 provinces. And the DA of your vassals will double that.
By keeping five vassals, you have four obvious : Spain and Portugal, who will colonize a lot (you could make war to them early on to take some of their colonies and TPs) ; England, who you'll keep catholic ; Poland, whom you give the russian lands. This leaves one "slot" open, in case (for example) you manage to have a catholic Sweden get hold on the whole of Scandinavia ; or for a (much reduced) Austria. Between you and your five vassals, there shouldn't be any other country left in Europe. It's good for you, as all other countries will be way behind in techs, at least two or three CRTs late.
Hit the BBWars.
If you've done well earlier, your only fights should be in the east, in Arabia, in Persia, in India (hey, don't forget to place troops enough there), in the Steppes, and in eastern Siberia. The reason for India is that you should make your WC in a minimum of steps, or rounds. Same can be done in Indonesia if you had enough colonists (you should have had enough IMHO).
One point that is very important : don't make peaces to early. Invent blitzkrieg (a useful trick : military accesses ; as you don't need to DoW, you can conclude MAs beforehand, the AI won't break them, and your troops will be ready). If you receive peace offers, wait until you're in position to get peace with every enemy. Make sure you get a full load of diplomats, wait until most of the countries have sent you advantageous peace-offers, and then make peace with everyone. One word of caution : make sure that the peaces won't give you a new border with a country you weren't at war with, as it would DoW you, and the point of making "mass peaces" is to get a long and homogenous period of peace, and you're reduce that period should you have to start another war. Normally, you should be less than twenty months at war, and be able to conclude all peaces in a six-months period, so you'll get 4-1/2 years of peace. Rebuild your troops, repress eventual rebellions, and in the last year before the end of the peace place your armies in good positions. Then, let the wars start anew. Rinse, repeat.
You might be afraid of China : it's indeed a one huge country. But it's easy to take it out in just two wars, if you know when to strike it. If you have a border with them in the first BBWar (you should), check what year it is. Trigger off the BBWar just over one year before the date of one of their huge rebellion events ; conquer all, but the capital. The rebels will take the capital, and you'll turbo-annex the whole country, except the capital (as told in the thread on turbo-annexations). The moment this happens is also the signal you should be waiting to start to make peaces.
All-in-all, in the first round of BBWars you should have conquered the (nearly) whole of China, the half of India that didn't belong to you, a big part of (independent) Indonesia, and half of the provinces of the Steppes countries and Persia. In the second round, you should be starting to force-annex countries that were reduced to one-provincers in the first round, and this'll greatly ease your burden, and allow you to better hand-pick your peaces, to set up for additional force-annexations in the third round. Normally, you should be able to conclude the WC in the fourth round, and if not in the fifth.
You only have to remember to raise your stability whenever it's below +3, as a Civil War is your biggest foe.

I hope it helps. :)
 

Jomini

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- Quality : you don't need the numbers, that's what colonies, CC and manus are for. And you'll doing a lots of assaults, so you need a high enough morale (and as you're already losing the bonus for Land, and gaining the penalty of Serfdom). No worry for the costs, your economy can take it.

You can never have enough numbers. Morale in assualts is not so terribly critical. Before you assault a province drop several beseiging forces and begin to march them out of the province. When you morale has taken a beating, cancel the movement and they will provide a fresh bump to morale. I have successfully assualted large fortresses on those pesky islands while being down in tech and morale.

Colonies only help the numbers if you have a land connection or they contain grain. Manus for MP simply have to wait for manus for stab first. Quite likely, your most serious threat will NOT be the AI's, it will be the rebels. When fighting the rebels it is solely a matter of numbers, morale means absolutely nothing. Manus, frankly aren't worth it to increase MP. You are far further ahead to pay for more CC's given that you are advocating a 50 FAA strat anyways.

Besides all that, if you manage to tech out, the morale impact of the sliders is rather muted. Real advantage of quality is the fire bonus, but the MP is almost invariably superior.

there's one big advantage : stabcosts. Between Serfdom, Narrowminded, and fifty (50) FAAs, your stabcosts should stay manageable. Why that focus on stabcosts ? Because of the changes brought in 1.09, which make Civil Wars more frequent with high BB. You need to get at stab +1 as fast as possible. You even need to get at stab +3 as fast as possible, as this avoids the risk of triggering CW with just one -1 or -2 stab random event. Don't hesitate to throw money in stability to get it up : you won't get more than one random event per year, so you can count on having one year to offset the effects of a random event that brought you at +1 or +2. But "luckily" (or "unluckily"), you probably won't get many random events, as 1°) CTDs happen more often late-game IMO, and 2°) the time it takes you to manage the BBWars leads to months of game that take you several hours of play, and you'll need to rest and sleep. So, unless you pass days-long before your computer, you should avoid many random events.

BB war's can fly. In the closing rounds you can normally preposition troops, fight all your battles within 4 months of the AI DoW, and merely wait with all provinces covered or being beseiged. In my experience the stab hitting events FAR outweigh the value of cheaper stab. Much of the time you will be sitting at +3 stab where the cost of your stab will be immaterial.

And when you are not there are three categories:
<0. Your stab costs are mostly irrelevant. It is normally better to let DoW bring them up for you, barring truly rare circumstances it will be only 5 years before the next BB round comes along and you can always buy your out if you have the diplos. Indeed if you have sufficient diplos, can just release a vassal who will declare ASAP and bring you up. The risk of civil war is too great in the most recent patches to linger here waiting for investment to bring up your stab.

0 You will have to invest in stab or face a civil war. This is where serfdom is helpful.

>0 You aren't in immediate risk of civil war so you now have a tradeoff between getting up to +3 fast (so you are as safe as can be) verses minimizing events which will bring you down into CW risk levels.

(you'll need a war or two in the XVIth century, force-converting them and taking protestant provinces, then converting them and giving them back later)
You will need at least two, in my experience. England has multiple events which can lead to conversion. Not to mention that unless you are CRC or have lopped off much protestant territory force conversion doesn't last.

Frankly if you are already mucking around in England, you are far further ahead to annex the place or have an ally do it for you. Getting Scotland to turboannex large portions of England is rather useful.

Colonize Siberia and Africa, and get high MP. Conquer the whole of the HRE, Italy, France and the Netherlands (before the latter do any colonization). And colonize India (you know how to get those maps as early as the mid-1420's, do you ?).

Very bad advise. First I'm not sure it is possible to do all of what you suggest with prematurely going over the BB cap. Given that you will have to expend BB to kill Russia (quite a bit most often), keeping England Catholic, bring the HRE to heel; I think you may well be over the limits if you truly want to empty Europe of competition. Second colonizing India, Siberia, and Africa opens another front when the BB wars start. Most everyone in Europe will already be declaring on you. However going to Siberia with a stillborn Russia means that you will have to border multiple steppe tribes who will promptly declare war in the BB rounds (and I see no way to kill them all without having to do less European conquest). Likewise Indian colonization will bring yet more nations that will suck down diplos. Africa, can have the same effect. Many borders in the BB wars leads to long wars, diplo shortages, and division of effort; which all told is a strategy for high WE, high RR, and trouble.

By keeping five vassals, you have four obvious : Spain and Portugal, who will colonize a lot (you could make war to them early on to take some of their colonies and TPs) ; England, who you'll keep catholic ; Poland, whom you give the russian lands. This leaves one "slot" open, in case (for example) you manage to have a catholic Sweden get hold on the whole of Scandinavia ; or for a (much reduced) Austria. Between you and your five vassals, there shouldn't be any other country left in Europe. It's good for you, as all other countries will be way behind in techs, at least two or three CRTs late.
Spain and Portugal are most often pushovers in the BB wars, particularly if you have gotten MA and took out the natives in Central and Southern America yourself. Both tend to have large amounts of unfortified colonial territory which you can use to rack up quick WS and either buy your way to peace or use to cherry pick Iberian provinces until they are reduced to capitals. Creating ubervassals in order to crush Europe is rather difficult. The AI is an idiot about revolt management it is quite likely for overrsized AI empires to implode without active intervention. Even building them in the first places takes a good deal of BB.

you receive peace offers, wait until you're in position to get peace with every enemy. Make sure you get a full load of diplomats, wait until most of the countries have sent you advantageous peace-offers, and then make peace with everyone. One word of caution : make sure that the peaces won't give you a new border with a country you weren't at war with, as it would DoW you, and the point of making "mass peaces" is to get a long and homogenous period of peace, and you're reduce that period should you have to start another war. Normally, you should be less than twenty months at war, and be able to conclude all peaces in a six-months period, so you'll get 4-1/2 years of peace. Rebuild your troops, repress eventual rebellions, and in the last year before the end of the peace place your armies in good positions. Then, let the wars start anew. Rinse, repeat.
This is exceedingly sound advise, however needless expansion in India will make this more difficult to acheive in practice. Hindu and oriental states have few diplos and are less likely to offer peace as frequently as Catholics.

You might be afraid of China : it's indeed a one huge country. But it's easy to take it out in just two wars, if you know when to strike it. If you have a border with them in the first BBWar (you should), check what year it is. Trigger off the BBWar just over one year before the date of one of their huge rebellion events ; conquer all, but the capital. The rebels will take the capital, and you'll turbo-annex the whole country, except the capital (as told in the thread on turbo-annexations). The moment this happens is also the signal you should be waiting to start to make peaces.

When one turboannexes China, one gains Chinese borders. That means that if you weren't already at war with such fun people as the Koreans, Manchu, Changatai, Vietnamese, etc. they will all declare war as soon as they are able. Given the size of China, the number of states normally left on her southern border, and the fortress size:supply limit ratios, those will not be easy wars to quickly conclude.

In the second round, you should be starting to force-annex countries that were reduced to one-provincers in the first round, and this'll greatly ease your burden, and allow you to better hand-pick your peaces, to set up for additional force-annexations in the third round. Normally, you should be able to conclude the WC in the fourth round, and if not in the fifth.
Annexing one province countries is fine. However being done in the fourth round is wildly optimistic. Seeing as you have not touched Japan you will need to take three rounds to eat them up. Unless you've been actively supressing the Mughals/Delhi it will take multiple rounds to reduce them as well. Remember only 100% WS can be taken or given in peace. High value provinces will reduce the number of provinces you can take in one go; CoTs, high tax provinces, gold, etc. will require you to go in for more BB rounds.

I'm sorry but this may be decent way to go for WC if you are experienced and can handily manipulate the AI for low BB, but I doubt more than a handful of people without WC experience can manage to vassalize all of Europe and fight an inordinantly long BB round against the whole of Asia.
 

unmerged(6159)

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Oct 23, 2001
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Jomini said:
I'm sorry but this may be decent way to go for WC if you are experienced and can handily manipulate the AI for low BB, but I doubt more than a handful of people without WC experience can manage to vassalize all of Europe and fight an inordinantly long BB round against the whole of Asia.

Doesn't this depend on your tech advantage? If you wait until you have a hundred conscription centers or so, and kick of the BB wars in 1750, I would think that 4 rounds is doable - if rather optimistic. Ten to Fifteen years per round. And long BB rounds aren't an issue as long as you have the starting army to handle it - say 3 to 4 million at the start, and however much you can rebuild for subsequent rounds.

(Of course that approach isnt' entirely consistent with turbo-annexing China or high quality :))