Best Austria --> Germany strategy?

[Demarque]

I have Heart of Darkness and A House Divided, and I'll be using the 1836 start date. I have already read this strategy, but I fear it might be outdated. I also tried 2 times already, but it never really went very well:

My starting moves consist on lowering my relations with Prussia and then justify war with the acquire state casus belli. In the meantime, tax the hell out of the poor to balance my budget, encourage clergymen as national focus, build some regiments and research Army Professionalism and Medicine. Once the CB is ready, I mobilize and attack Prussia, with the wargoal of taking Prussian Württemberg - a war whose victory will depend strongly on luck, as sometimes, Prussia allies the UK, and then I'm screwed. Even if they don't have any strong allies, the war will still be hard. Can I do anything to improve my situation in this war? And allying the UK myself is not that good, as they will be the war leaders. Also, would it be a good idea to take Silesia as an added wargoal in this same war?

After the war is won, I research Nationalism and Imperialism, so to use the admit hegemony goal. In the only case I was able to win, I fully occupied Prussia, because I wanted to lower their rank to the point where they would lose their Great Power status, so that I could sphere them, which I believe is a necessity in order to form Germany. But even with every inch of their land occupied and their entire armies destroyed and the humiliation wargoal, they are still a superpower. So what should I do?

 

[SknerusMck]

You can try allying Russia, they are good allies earlygame and you should be able to jump in score above them. But I don't think you really need Russia's help . Combat Width is huge that early in game so jump on small Prussia 3:1 or at least 2:1 - you should do it without problems with your huge population - and their uber technology will be meaningless.

A GP has to wait one year before it drops from GP status even if it has 0 points. And industry doesn't get destroyed instantly, you need to wait.

 

[Owl Raider]

To be honest, if you want to form Greater Germany just do it with Prussia. No real point doing it with Austria instead as it's just weaker and doesn't have access to the special Prussia only tech school: Junkers, Heer & Krupp which is by far the best tech school in the entire game. In my opinion, if you want to do an Austrian campaign the best way is to ally Prussia right from the start(they'll always agree) and let it steal Saxony away from you to quickly form the NGF. Than after they take Alsace Lorraine from France let them steal Bavaria, Baden and Württemberg from you as well and form Germany, they won't have a reason to attack you nor break their alliance with you, just make sure to always pick their side on any Crisis that occurs and pray they'll always support you in Crisis caused by your own minors. A quickly formed Germany and hopefully Italy as well will allow you to quickly become the Austro-Hungarian Empire which will give you Hungarian as an accepted culture which will greatly improve your nation without hurting anyone in the process. So basically you can focus all your conquests towards the Ottomans(steal all their European lands if you want, they'll never be able to stand up to you and Germany) and weak uncivs and prepare to colonize the majority of Africa which is easy to do if you prepare for it in advance.

If you still insist on forming Greater Germany with Austria rather than going the Austro-Hungarian Empire route than you'll need some luck to get France to ally with you rather than with Russia, as if France allies Russia you won't have a good ally to fight Prussia with(the UK is a terrible ally, way too unpredictable and even at their best not very impressive, don't think I need to comment on the Ottomans and Spain, even worst than UK). Regardless of whether you managed to ally with France or not, you're right that you'll need at least 2 wars to bring Prussia down. However the Acquire State war isn't necessarily the best route, as you've seen for yourself. The better route Imho is Cut down to Size+Humiliate initially, but drag the war on as long as possible regardless to destroy Prussia's industry before it skyrockets as well as its military and prestige. Than in the second war use the Admit Hegemony+Add to Sphere technique, with no army(due to the previous Cut down to Size war) the second war should be a breeze and after fully occupying them again they should drop to secondary power status.

As far as techs go, always go Medicine first as population is your most important long term resource. Afterwards get some quick military techs to aid you in the war, prioritize Army Professionalism to lower your losses, than if you're still on the defensive get the defensive tech(fort line, also increases units' defensive stats which is what you want here) otherwise go for the infantry and than artillery techs instead. Save the cultural, industrial and commercial(in that order) techs for the truces. To be perfectly honest, you want to fabricate your 2 war goals on Prussia starting from day 1 and if you can't get France as an ally, or Russia for that matter, than try to get the UK before Prussia does, you shouldn't mind if they take the Ottomans as their ally as the Ottomans are pathetically weak. Still, this first war is going to be very difficult, play defensively in defensive terrains(forests, jungles or preferably mountains) until the majority of the Prussian army has been dealt with, than go on the offensive and begin occupying them. The second war should be a breeze if the first war went well, just make sure to research State and Government as soon as you reach 1840 as you'll need that tech for the Asset Hegemony CB.

 

[Demarque]

A GP has to wait one year before it drops from GP status even if it has 0 points. And industry doesn't get destroyed instantly, you need to wait.

Actually, I did wait for some time after having occupied all of Prussia's land, but I can't remember if it was for an entire year. So yeah, you're right on that one. The problem is, after some time under occupation, the Prussian industry still had some points, and it wasn't dropping.

To be honest, if you want to form Greater Germany just do it with Prussia. No real point doing it with Austria instead as it's just weaker and doesn't have access to the special Prussia only tech school: Junkers, Heer & Krupp which is by far the best tech school in the entire game. In my opinion, if you want to do an Austrian campaign the best way is to ally Prussia right from the start(they'll always agree) and let it steal Saxony away from you to quickly form the NGF. Than after they take Alsace Lorraine from France let them steal Bavaria, Baden and Württemberg from you as well and form Germany, they won't have a reason to attack you nor break their alliance with you, just make sure to always pick their side on any Crisis that occurs and pray they'll always support you in Crisis caused by your own minors. A quickly formed Germany and hopefully Italy as well will allow you to quickly become the Austro-Hungarian Empire which will give you Hungarian as an accepted culture which will greatly improve your nation without hurting anyone in the process. So basically you can focus all your conquests towards the Ottomans(steal all their European lands if you want, they'll never be able to stand up to you and Germany) and weak uncivs and prepare to colonize the majority of Africa which is easy to do if you prepare for it in advance.

If you still insist on forming Greater Germany with Austria rather than going the Austro-Hungarian Empire route than you'll need some luck to get France to ally with you rather than with Russia, as if France allies Russia you won't have a good ally to fight Prussia with(the UK is a terrible ally, way too unpredictable and even at their best not very impressive, don't think I need to comment on the Ottomans and Spain, even worst than UK). Regardless of whether you managed to ally with France or not, you're right that you'll need at least 2 wars to bring Prussia down. However the Acquire State war isn't necessarily the best route, as you've seen for yourself. The better route Imho is Cut down to Size+Humiliate initially, but drag the war on as long as possible regardless to destroy Prussia's industry before it skyrockets as well as its military and prestige. Than in the second war use the Admit Hegemony+Add to Sphere technique, with no army(due to the previous Cut down to Size war) the second war should be a breeze and after fully occupying them again they should drop to secondary power status.

As far as techs go, always go Medicine first as population is your most important long term resource. Afterwards get some quick military techs to aid you in the war, prioritize Army Professionalism to lower your losses, than if you're still on the defensive get the defensive tech(fort line, also increases units' defensive stats which is what you want here) otherwise go for the infantry and than artillery techs instead. Save the cultural, industrial and commercial(in that order) techs for the truces. To be perfectly honest, you want to fabricate your 2 war goals on Prussia starting from day 1 and if you can't get France as an ally, or Russia for that matter, than try to get the UK before Prussia does, you shouldn't mind if they take the Ottomans as their ally as the Ottomans are pathetically weak. Still, this first war is going to be very difficult, play defensively in defensive terrains(forests, jungles or preferably mountains) until the majority of the Prussian army has been dealt with, than go on the offensive and begin occupying them. The second war should be a breeze if the first war went well, just make sure to research State and Government as soon as you reach 1840 as you'll need that tech for the Asset Hegemony CB.

I have already formed Germany as Prussia twice, and now I want to go full alternate history and give the Habsburgs the privilege of uniting Germany, that's why I'm going with Austria. But you're right, I think I will try to go for the Austria-Hungary path next time.

And thanks for the tips.

 

[James_Manring]

The easiest way is to ally Russia and keep them happy in your back pocket. If you never have to worry about them crushing you against France and never have to suffer ungodly attrition to take anything from them you will have plenty of power left over to beat on Prussia alone. You'll want to do that before they cozy up to France. You have a limited window in which to use Russia to take from France and then turn Prussia into a secondary power in your sphere without them so they don't take any German lands. That Prussia part can be a difficult investment of time. You will have to take their largest industrial states from them and hold them in occupation until their factories close and they drop out of GP status. It will probably take 2 wars.

If you need something to do between wars with Great Powers, perform conquest on some of the South German countries to expand your primary POP base and free up diplomatic influence. Start with those that border France to make the struggle between the two of you a bit easier.

 

[austrianemporer]

The easiest way is to ally Russia and keep them happy in your back pocket. If you never have to worry about them crushing you against France and never have to suffer ungodly attrition to take anything from them you will have plenty of power left over to beat on Prussia alone. You'll want to do that before they cozy up to France. You have a limited window in which to use Russia to take from France and then turn Prussia into a secondary power in your sphere without them so they don't take any German lands. That Prussia part can be a difficult investment of time. You will have to take their largest industrial states from them and hold them in occupation until their factories close and they drop out of GP status. It will probably take 2 wars.

If you need something to do between wars with Great Powers, perform conquest on some of the South German countries to expand your primary POP base and free up diplomatic influence. Start with those that border France to make the struggle between the two of you a bit easier.

No.

Russia is a horrible ally. NEVER ALLY RUSSIA.

 

[Atlantians]

No.

Russia is a horrible ally. NEVER ALLY RUSSIA.

Why?

 

[austrianemporer]

Why?

Russia has horrible tech so their armies get regularly beat up by any civilized country except the Ottomans. Their sheer weight of numbers is completely negated by the travel time it takes to get to places and the amount of land units have to cross to form an army. They're just a punching bag and distraction for any country. Remember this, the NGF can beat France handily, not easily but handily. If Russia allies France and gets called into that war, NGF still wins the war handily. In fact, negative warscore from the amount of battles the Russians lost actually is greater than whatever the French manage to fail on the Western front.

 

[SknerusMck]

I agree. I am currently playing Italy and 3 alliances are NGF-UK, France-AH and unfortunately Italy-Russia. NGF loves UK and gets punched by France and AH, and I can't do anything because NGF is now very weak and that vodka drinking losers are shit. At least they make the BBB believe that our combined might would stop them from destroying us like the Germans...

[Russia was good earlier but by middle game they are terrible]

 

[qwertzuiop]

Russia is still the third best land power in the game though. Prussia/NGF/Germany and France are superior. If you're either one of them or can't ally either of them because you have to fight them (as in an Austria -> Germany strategy), why not ally Russia? Seriously, an ally is better than no ally.

In fact, the only useless ally in the game is the UK.

I agree. I am currently playing Italy and 3 alliances are NGF-UK, France-AH and unfortunately Italy-Russia. NGF loves UK and gets punched by France and AH, and I can't do anything because NGF is now very weak and that vodka drinking losers are shit. At least they make the BBB believe that our combined might would stop them from destroying us like the Germans...

[Russia was good earlier but by middle game they are terrible]

It's true that Italy-Russia is not the best alliance, but that's really a different situation. In your game it would be an advantage if you had France or Germany on your side, but in an Austria -> Germany game you have to fight both, so that's not an option.

 

[austrianemporer]

Russia is still the third best land power in the game though. Prussia/NGF/Germany and France are superior. If you're either one of them or can't ally either of them because you have to fight them (as in an Austria -> Germany strategy), why not ally Russia? Seriously, an ally is better than no ally.

In fact, the only useless ally in the game is the UK.



It's true that Italy-Russia is not the best alliance, but that's really a different situation. In your game it would be an advantage if you had France or Germany on your side, but in an Austria -> Germany game you have to fight both, so that's not an option.

Early game, maybe third best land power. By 1860, maybe eighth best? On paper, Russia is an amazing ally. In reality, they suck. Look at my post two above yours. At least UK won't cause you to lose warscore and the UK will give you intimidation so other countries won't attack. An ally who loses warscore for you is worse than no ally.

 

[Atlantians]

In my Super-Germany game I broke France's back, hard.; really really hard.
Bane-on-Batman hard.

I sieged them down, evaporated their military, collapsed their entire industry, until all their rebellions fired, and then when Italy Declared war on them, I ended the war and let Italy take Provence

5-10 years later, they are now Communist and still covered in rebels of about 3 different types.

They can't even build an army capable of handling 1 of those 3 types of rebels.

They have been like this for about 5-10 years now.

It amuses me.

Durring the wars with France when they were allied with Russia, I just left walls of troops on the Russian border and consumed Russians every few months.

 

[austrianemporer]

In my Super-Germany game I broke France's back, hard.; really really hard.
Bane-on-Batman hard.

I sieged them down, evaporated their military, collapsed their entire industry, until all their rebellions fired, and then when Italy Declared war on them, I ended the war and let Italy take Provence

5-10 years later, they are now Communist and still covered in rebels of about 3 different types.

They can't even build an army capable of handling 1 of those 3 types of rebels.

They have been like this for about 5-10 years now.

It amuses me.

Durring the wars with France when they were allied with Russia, I just left walls of troops on the Russian border and consumed Russians every few months.

Cool.

 

[James_Manring]

The people arguing against Russia completely missed the point of my post. It isn't about how useful they are in combat for you. It is about keeping them from going to war with you as the ally of France or Prussia and using the threat of them on paper to prevent France from coming back for their cores. It isn't that they are amazing in combat and are going to help you conquer the world. It is that going to war against them while sharing such a large border and having such deep tracts of land to occupy quickly becomes a war of attrition if you want to enforce your goals against them. That is something Austria cannot afford to do. If your goal is to become Germany there isn't a better ally that Austria can ask for to prevent delays in the process.

 

[austrianemporer]

The people arguing against Russia completely missed the point of my post. It isn't about how useful they are in combat for you. It is about keeping them from going to war with you as the ally of France or Prussia and using the threat of them on paper to prevent France from coming back for their cores. It isn't that they are amazing in combat and are going to help you conquer the world. It is that going to war against them while sharing such a large border and having such deep tracts of land to occupy quickly becomes a war of attrition if you want to enforce your goals against them. That is something Austria cannot afford to do. If your goal is to become Germany there isn't a better ally that Austria can ask for to prevent delays in the process.

If you play Victoria II at all, you would realize that France will come back for their cores anyhow. You should let France ally Russia, the OP wants to win wars and succeed, not lose warscore because of the massive amount of battles the Russians will lose. If you play Victoria II, you will realize that you can defeat Russia by just wiping out their armies. You shouldn't invade Russia itself, that's just plain silly. If you want intimidation, ally the Chinese Empire, Great Britain, or America, all of which have higher military score (America late game, China when westernized). The Russian Empire isn't a good tool to intimidate the AI. Austria can easily fend off the Russian armies with two mobilized corps. If your goal is to become Germany, there isn't a better ally to ask for than France in the early game to easily beat up Prussia. Once you beat up Prussia, sphered them and all the German minors, you can turn on France. You can crush them because you basically have the land of Greater Germany while Prussia can beat up France with only the land of the NGF (do this BEFORE 1860.) You form Super Germany. Ally GB for intimidation. If they attack, your not afraid. Your super Germany with a human player!

 

[James_Manring]

If you play Victoria II at all, you would realize that France will come back for their cores anyhow. You should let France ally Russia, the OP wants to win wars and succeed, not lose warscore because of the massive amount of battles the Russians will lose. If you play Victoria II, you will realize that you can defeat Russia by just wiping out their armies. You shouldn't invade Russia itself, that's just plain silly. If you want intimidation, ally the Chinese Empire, Great Britain, or America, all of which have higher military score (America late game, China when westernized). The Russian Empire isn't a good tool to intimidate the AI. Austria can easily fend off the Russian armies with two mobilized corps. If your goal is to become Germany, there isn't a better ally to ask for than France in the early game to easily beat up Prussia. Once you beat up Prussia, sphered them and all the German minors, you can turn on France. You can crush them because you basically have the land of Greater Germany while Prussia can beat up France with only the land of the NGF (do this BEFORE 1860.) You form Super Germany. Ally GB for intimidation. If they attack, your not afraid. Your super Germany with a human player!

Cool.

 

[ozyhuboi]

Actually, regarding Russia, in my last Austria -> Germany game (HPM) the Prussians happened to ally the Ottomans, so they ended up in a war against Russia when the Crimean War hit. This was greatly beneficial as Prussian troops began to march deep towards St. Petersburg and I quickly struck to take Silesia. The key regarding Russia is that it useful for it to be at war with your enemies, but not necessarily be on your side.

 

[qwertzuiop]

I'm still not convinced that Russia is a bad ally. Maybe it's because I've been playing a lot of PoD + Divide by Zero and they are usually good at keeping up in military tech in the mod. I might have to play some Vanilla to check if it's really true or not.

Still, even if they didn't have any military tech at all and tried to fight with irregulars, there is no way they can be more useless than the UK. Even if they make you lose warscore, they still make your enemy lose troops and take attrition. The British though don't do anything at all and if they do something, they are landing isolated troops.

 

[SknerusMck]

I'm still not convinced that Russia is a bad ally. Maybe it's because I've been playing a lot of PoD + Divide by Zero and they are usually good at keeping up in military tech in the mod. I might have to play some Vanilla to check if it's really true or not.

Still, even if they didn't have any military tech at all and tried to fight with irregulars, there is no way they can be more useless than the UK. Even if they make you lose warscore, they still make your enemy lose troops and take attrition. The British though don't do anything at all and if they do something, they are landing isolated troops.

Well if you aren't the war leader Russians will lose so much war score that they will peace out and possibly screw you ..

 

[austrianemporer]

Actually, regarding Russia, in my last Austria -> Germany game (HPM) the Prussians happened to ally the Ottomans, so they ended up in a war against Russia when the Crimean War hit. This was greatly beneficial as Prussian troops began to march deep towards St. Petersburg and I quickly struck to take Silesia. The key regarding Russia is that it useful for it to be at war with your enemies, but not necessarily be on your side.

I'm still not convinced that Russia is a bad ally. Maybe it's because I've been playing a lot of PoD + Divide by Zero and they are usually good at keeping up in military tech in the mod. I might have to play some Vanilla to check if it's really true or not.

Still, even if they didn't have any military tech at all and tried to fight with irregulars, there is no way they can be more useless than the UK. Even if they make you lose warscore, they still make your enemy lose troops and take attrition. The British though don't do anything at all and if they do something, they are landing isolated troops.

You guys must not play the game a lot or you guys must not play the game into the late game. ozyhuboi, ally France, not Russia.
qwertzuiop, At least Britain doesn't cause you to lose warscore. Late game, they actually conduct amphibious landings so they aren't terrible.