Benefits and of playing a medium-small nation in EU4. Tips included

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Zak Preston

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Pros:
1. Constant tech lead (~7 years ahead of time).
2. Abundance of MP to spend on ideas, buildings and culture conversion.
3. You can blob your vassals instead of spending ADM points on coring.
4. You can hold stability on 0 and enjoy no rebellions\unreast
5. When you are surrounded by loyal vassals, some wars are instawins against minors, since vassals do all the job for themselves
6. You don't need those humanistic or religious ideas, freeing slots for military ones. Diplomatic and Influence are obligatory.
7. Vassals usually take the hit, so for centuries you not a single enemy troop may step on your lands.
8. Vassals contribute to your FL, so you can build a decent army.

Cons:
1. Extremely vulnerable start as OPM or TPM
2. Feeding vassals transfers all AE to you.
3. Unless fed, vassals are quite dumb and useless, also you will have to deal with their internal problems (whisch is still better than to deal with your own ones)
4. You must have a good production and control a valuable endpoint trade node to have a serious income.
5. Fed vassals don't bother to build serious upgrades in their provinces, meaning you will have to resiege their captured provinces.
6. If you have a hostile superpower power or blob near you, you will have to wait for decades to strike them when they are at another war.
7. Your army\fleet in early game suck hard.

Tips:
1. Find a nearby OPM\TPM with stron ideas, annex it, convert religion and release for further feed.
2. Try to make your vassals control as much trade nodes as possible
3. Try to control your own trade node.
4. You get all AE hits for feeding vassals, not them.
5. Aristocratic ideas may be a good choice if your neighbor wants your provinces
6. Buildings are your saving grace.
7. Mercs are your best friends, since your manpower will be quite low at start.
 

AurochsAway

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Anything you can do with vassals as a small nation you can do with vassals as a big nation. Those are not benefits to being small. Furthermore, having vassals is hardly playing a small nation, as they're little more than an extension of you.
 

hajutze

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Pro:
> At least for me, being small to medium (small < 10; medium <20) - it's easier to defend your borders. I mean if you have 400 provinces even if you try your best chances are you'll have 10-20ish occupied provinces at any given point in a big war which is annoying to say the least.
> The biggest pro is that you'll have a different experience. IMHO everyone has to play 1 game as a mid/small nation at least once simply because being big is pretty much the same for every country after the first 50 years. Being small and fucking around with others is totally a different experience and adds replayability.

Con:
> While being easier to defend your nation if they occupy 1 province you'll get a bigger hit in forcelimits and income
> Depending on your location, the income can take quite the hit (I had a game being medium (19 provinces) as byz and 90% of my income was trade related)

I disagree with AurochsAway. There are benefits - for example having more MP to spend or the reduced chance of having a rebelion (some people are having problems with that I guess, so it has to be a good thing)

I've said it before - if you have a lot of vassals you aren't really a small or a medium nation. You're just decentralized. Having 9 provinces and revoking the privilegia is not really a challenge =/. For the sake of the definition of a small/medium nation the number of provinces/BT of your vassals should add up to yours.

================================================================================================

Generally small/mid doesn't have anything that a rationally/slow expanding empire doesn't have (up to tech and mp to spare). It's only good for RP reasons.
 
Last edited:

Zak Preston

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Pro:
> At least for me, being small to medium (small < 10; medium <20) - it's easier to defend your borders. I mean if you have 400 provinces even if you try your best chances are you'll have 10-20ish occupied provinces at any given point in a big war which is annoying to say the least.
> The biggest pro is that you'll have a different experience. IMHO everyone has to play 1 game as a mid/small nation at least once simply because being big is pretty much the same for every country after the first 50 years. Being small and fucking around with others is totally a different experience and adds replayability.

Con:
> While being easier to defend your nation if they occupy 1 province you'll get a bigger hit in forcelimits and income
> Depending on your location, the income can take quite the hit (I had a game being medium (19 provinces) as byz and 90% of my income was trade related)

I disagree with AurochsAway. There are benefits - for example having more MP to spend or the reduced chance of having a rebelion (some people are having problems with that I guess, so it has to be a good thing)

I've said it before - if you have a lot of vassals you aren't really a small or a medium nation. You're just decentralized. Having 9 provinces and revoking the privilegia is not really a challenge =/. For the sake of the definition of a small/medium nation the number of provinces/BT of your vassals should add up to yours.

================================================================================================

Generally small/mid doesn't have anything that a rationally/slow expanding empire doesn't have (up to tech and mp to spare). It's only good for RP reasons.

I would rather caount total BT to define a size of nation: 50-70 BT for small and 70-150 for medium nations depending on your region, since 9 European provinces in Baltic region will have 7BT average per province, while in Caucasus' medium BT is 2.
 

RobRoy3

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I disagree with AurochsAway. There are benefits - for example having more MP to spend or the reduced chance of having a rebelion (some people are having problems with that I guess, so it has to be a good thing)

I've said it before - if you have a lot of vassals you aren't really a small or a medium nation. You're just decentralized. Having 9 provinces and revoking the privilegia is not really a challenge =/. For the sake of the definition of a small/medium nation the number of provinces/BT of your vassals should add up to yours.
Unless I'm mis-reading something, he was commenting on the OP's assertions regarding vassals - that their advantages/disadvantages had nothing to do with being small. He went on to say almost the same thing you did about vassals and size.

I'd actually observe that the total MP cost of using vassals and vassal feeding can exceed the cost of expanding on your own, depending on how you do it. Granted it'll be mostly DIP points versus ADM points, but if the perceived advantage of being small is having extra MPs for buildings and techs, heavy use of vassals doesn't necessarily support this.
 

Zak Preston

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Unless I'm mis-reading something, he was commenting on the OP's assertions regarding vassals - that their advantages/disadvantages had nothing to do with being small. He went on to say almost the same thing you did about vassals and size.

I'd actually observe that the total MP cost of using vassals and vassal feeding can exceed the cost of expanding on your own, depending on how you do it. Granted it'll be mostly DIP points versus ADM points, but if the perceived advantage of being small is having extra MPs for buildings and techs, heavy use of vassals doesn't necessarily support this.

Playing as a Big Blob means you will have to spend a lot of MP on coring or annexing, but feeding a long term vassal without any intentions to annex is a quite different story, especially when you don't need to spend MP on humanistic and/or Religious ideas.
 

RobRoy3

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Playing as a Big Blob means you will have to spend a lot of MP on coring or annexing, but feeding a long term vassal without any intentions to annex is a quite different story, especially when you don't need to spend MP on humanistic and/or Religious ideas.
True, if you never intend to annex, you don't have to spend the points to integrate. Acquiring the turf, though, even for vassals, can cost DIP points, as well as the AE.

And, while I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your approach, you could make the case that using a DIP slot permanently for vassals is less desirable than using it trying to maintain a solid long terms alliance with a nice big blob.
 

Zak Preston

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True, if you never intend to annex, you don't have to spend the points to integrate. Acquiring the turf, though, even for vassals, can cost DIP points, as well as the AE.

And, while I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your approach, you could make the case that using a DIP slot permanently for vassals is less desirable than using it trying to maintain a solid long terms alliance with a nice big blob.

In my last game I had 2 vassals (Armenia and Astrakhan) that could be considered as Great Powers, other two (Ryazan and Kyiv) combined were capable of kicking ass to almost-Scandinavia Sweden alone, I didn't even interfere.

I don't argue with you, BTW. I just note that having multiple strong vassals turns gameplay with a small-medium nation into an easy walk, especially vs a medium-sized enemy.
 

hajutze

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Unless I'm mis-reading something, he was commenting on the OP's assertions regarding vassals - that their advantages/disadvantages had nothing to do with being small. He went on to say almost the same thing you did about vassals and size.

I'd actually observe that the total MP cost of using vassals and vassal feeding can exceed the cost of expanding on your own, depending on how you do it. Granted it'll be mostly DIP points versus ADM points, but if the perceived advantage of being small is having extra MPs for buildings and techs, heavy use of vassals doesn't necessarily support this.

I ... totally misread what he said ...
 

domcoates

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You guys have piqued my interest. Anyone fancy giving me three of the best nations for an ironman start with this kinda playthrough? :)
 

atwix

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you forget one thing. opm takes massive war exhaustion. It scales up if your OPM, pretty bad. Not that its bad run per se as an OPM, if you got good strong allies or a good vassal feed. But if you ever want to integrate vassals, you got to get rid of it. And waiting for it isn't an option, or you wouldn't feed the vassals. And wasting diplo points on war exhaustion is meh, since no serious blobber ever uses diplo for anything else then massive blob peace deals and integrating.

Good tips though.. But i would add that a vassal that takes religious as first or second idea is good. Thats why i always go for Byzantium early, especially now that you can vassalise them in one no cb war, and get serbia aswell as a 90+% vassal if they eat entire Bosnia. Other good examples are Persia or Iraq. Usefull too. Conver them before release, and watch them convert anything to catholic. But you forget the most important one.

If you feed everything to a vassal, and never EVER border another nation, no nation can form a coalition versus you. And thats 100% true, although its not a known trick. 1.8 made this trick soooooooo abusable by allowing occupation switches.

Once you integrate a vassal, prepare for a coalition of doom though.


How? Conquer nations with claims/reconquest on your targets, ans force vassalise them. Feed those. Byzantium is the perfect example, they get a neverending reconquest cb for edirne, if they keep constantinople. Or release a country right after annex, they won't have time to coalition you. And they can't after.

OP really. Its a trick i used to avoid coalition in my foix run, and in the 1.7 wc in my signature. After i annexed guyenne, like 15 nations suddenly coalition'd me. What many people don't know a coalition needs ONE nation that is your direct neighbour to start a coalition, then anyone can join. If noone borders you, noone can start a coalition, not over sea tiles either. ****. But you can still claim over sea tiles, and continue conquest. If you rival nations that border vassal, the vassal will make claims on rival. Free cb. Reminds me of eu3 times, where surrounding you completely with a vassal was a good thing...

Coalition? Go ahead folks. I'm in africa or asia now, just tick away yer ae plz...


Tip for nation? Foix. Ask support independance from three greater powers vs france, and let them do the fight. Feed Guyenne and Provence. Conquer aragon right after independance war. Let entire europe wonder how to pronounce FOIX :D (and no, it isn't fo-ix. More like foie gras, foix.)

All in all, foix is perfect example for a strat like this. OPM with potential 3 greater power allies at 1450 if you restart till castille, austria and burgundy rival france. Can't beat it. Any french OPM wil do, but foix is best placed and has good stat king.

Ideal if you want to try the strat OP shows. But its not easy peasy. Easier then doing this strat with Yaroslavl though.
 
Last edited:

Zak Preston

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You guys have piqued my interest. Anyone fancy giving me three of the best nations for an ironman start with this kinda playthrough? :)

From my experience:
Iberians: Aragon is the easiest (sell\create subjects from islands, ally with Portugal\Burgundy, vassalize Navarra and feed them with Castilian provinces), Navarra (colonies are your saving grace) and Granada (you need to go Christian).
French region: Brittany (try to snatch Cornwall from England and then take all Irish OPMs) and Provence (best ideas for small nations ever, but a very hard start which I couldn't handle)
British Isles: any Irish OPM or Scotland (try to release Cornwall, Wales and Northumberland in first war, then vassalize and feed them). England is an easy choice too.
Italy: Naples or The Papal State.
Baltic region: Denmark, Teutonic\Livonic order, Riga,.
Eastern/Central Europe: Poland (annex Mazovia, PU Lithuania, sell them all your Ruthenian provinces and take from TO their only Polish province), Moldavia, Hungary (no expansion), Theodoro is a hardcore option )
Balkans: Serbia, Bosnia or Wallachia.
Caucasus: any of their states (1-3 BT per province and low manpower, but production is quite good).
 

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In which world is Poland NOT considered a T1 nation o_O
By itself, Poland is a mid-tier power of Bohemia's level. With Lithuanian hordes, it's a GP.