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tyman323

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According to Wikipedia, Doriot was hardline communist during 20s, so without Hitler&Co he wouldn't change allegiance.
not nessecarly, he was kicked out after promoting a popular front, which at the time wasn't a popular move with lead party members. He got very resentful towards the Communists, and this alone could start off the new ideology of National Socialism. Mussolini I assume is still around ITTL, and he, much like other fascists, could inspire him as well. Fascism in general will still be big, especially as the soviets ITTL are even more powerful and threatening.
 

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The perfect Nazi-style fascist party in France: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Popular_Party#Ideology_and_fascism_of_PPF

Only problem is it wasn't formed until around 1936. Perhaps Jacques Doriot could play a major role politically in a fascist French state?

Perhaps the butterfly effect produces a much different fascist takeover, prior to or after 1934, allowing Doriot to assert himself as the titular leader of his country's fascist movement?

Thoughts?
 

tyman323

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The perfect Nazi-style fascist party in France: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Popular_Party#Ideology_and_fascism_of_PPF

Only problem is it wasn't formed until around 1936. Perhaps Jacques Doriot could play a major role politically in a fascist French state?

Perhaps the butterfly effect produces a much different fascist takeover, prior to or after 1934, allowing Doriot to assert himself as the titular leader of his country's fascist movement?

Thoughts?
Makes the most sense, still makes for the perfect leader for a right wing .

Butterfly effect can also eliminate him from politics long before 1934.
I think this butterfly would make him more mainstream rather than kill him off.
 

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Hitler, without a doubt and IMHO.

Maybe in your TL they would do this but I think maybe there should be option to install who as puppet for Germany. I do not think a Fascist Britain and France would allow Germany too be too strong after WWI so they might not have an extreme aggressive leader that could challenge their intrests.

1) Hitler, this could cause friction with France and Britain with his ambitions.
2) A more easier to control member of Nazi Party(not sure who)
3) A normal FA ideology Fascist, maybe a surviving Kapp Putch, Freikorps veteran or the far-right wing of the DNVP
4) A conservative member of the German military
5) A Kaiser figurehead as HOS and governed by a Fascist, NS or PA HoG
6) Partition Germany into many countries.

Also the fifth option should be only if Britain captures a large chunk of Germany.

Also what about Canada and the rest of the Commonwealth? Most likely Brits try to directly integrate India not sure about others.

For the US if the Fascist Entente invades it then I do not think Fritz Kuhn should be puppet HOG due to the precedence of Anglo-French Fascism/Nazism over German Nazism. Maybe have William Dudley Pelley be HOS of a Fascist US in this game.
 
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Maybe in your TL they would do this but I think maybe there should be option to install who as puppet for Germany. I do not think a Fascist Britain and France would allow Germany too be too strong after WWI so they might not have an extreme aggressive leader that could challenge their intrests.

1) Hitler, this could cause friction with France and Britain with his ambitions.
2) A more easier to control member of Nazi Party(not sure who)
3) A normal FA ideology Fascist, maybe a surviving Kapp Putch, Freikorps veteran or the far-right wing of the DNVP
4) A conservative member of the German military
5) A Kaiser figurehead as HOS and governed by a Fascist, NS or PA HoG
6) Partition Germany into many countries.

Also the fifth option should be only if Britain captures a large chunk of Germany.

Also what about Canada and the rest of the Commonwealth? Most likely Brits try to directly integrate India not sure about others.

For the US if the Fascist Entente invades it then I do not think Fritz Kuhn should be puppet HOG due to the precedence of Anglo-French Fascism/Nazism over German Nazism. Maybe have William Dudley Pelley be HOS of a Fascist US in this game.

I should add, for clarification, Germany post-WWI by 1936 is a Soviet republic aligned with the USSR - unless you mean AFTER Soviet Germany is vanquished by France, Britain, Italy, etc.?

You're probably right about Hitler being far too aggressive, even for a fascist France. However, one could say that, assuming that France puts him in power after WWII, gives the nascent Reich German-majority provinces (Austria, Bohemia, and so forth) in exchange for Hitler's acknowledgement of French interests on the continent.

I'd imagine that a Nazi France putting Hitler int power after defeating the Soviet Union would have less of a reason to fear a Nazi German government; Hitler would effectively be entirely reliant on French military support, French backing being the sole reason why he was able to seize power in the first place.

I could imagine Hitler, also, not wanting to attack France if it is just as radical-if not more so-as his new Third Reich is.

The Polish territories would already be within Germany's possession (as described in the timeline over on the Alternate History forum) such as the Danzig Corridor, Upper Silesia, etc., while other territories coveted by the fascist German right could be granted to Hitler's regime as a reward from France/Britain/Italy for more or less leading a quasi guerrilla war/insurgency against the Reds in Bavaria. (Later on in the TL, Hitler with Italian and Austrian backing crosses into Bavaria, from which the National Socialists had been rudely evicted from during the German Civil War by the victorious Reds).

Just some quick thoughts.

Don't know much as of right now about the rest of the British Commonwealth. I'd imagine that South Africa, Australia, Canada, and other dominions would be at the very least more right leaning.

India would probably be even more beaten down by British colonial authorities - giving the invading Red Army ample support upon crossing into northern India through Afghanistan in the TL's alternate WWII.

Still don't know, assuming that India is seized by the Red Army, what particular Indian communists would make up the new regime. Any suggestions?

Finally, don't think that the U.S. will be invaded, nor will Fritz Kuhn play the role of an American Hitler.

At the very least once can elect Huey Long, or possibly Charles Lindbergh, to power which would allow for the option to extend support (so supplies, oil, energy, and other in-game resources) to France and Britain.

That, and to let the player implement a simulated version of Huey Long's momentous "Share the Wealth" program. Effectively giving me, a nerd with an interest in economic structures, a plausible attempt to portray Long's first one hundred days in office assuming that the player elects him. So no fascist Huey Long cartoon-type figure.

Don't know much about what Lindbergh would do as president, but he would probably as already stated travel to Paris (In a reference to his real life travels to Nazi Berlin) - immersing himself in the fascist society - and overtly aid France in its war against the Reds.

However, in the actual timeline Alfred E. Smith has risen to power, so I'll mostly be discussing an alternate New Deal (which in real life he came up with whose idea was promptly co opted by FDR)
 

Vanguard44

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The movement of a 1940s mechanised army through the hindu kush is frankly not that believable. India itself is a quagmire - virtually no roads, monsoon season, and a train network geared for commercial, not military use.

The Communists never did that well in Indian elections, all things considered, and their promise of violently extirpating elements of the Indian social order would be less than welcome.
 

Xie

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Iron cross has Commie Indian milisters.

And through this is cancelled you can go here for Pakistan..

Now about Africa, I think you maybe should use some of the Kaiserreich nations and ministers. There's probably not gonna be a WWI portion of the mod so that saves you some tags. Kaiserreich also has ministers for Afghanistan and Iran that can be mixed with the ones in your mod. Be sure to credit them through.

Now what about Latin America?
 
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bean1

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Or maybe something like the 1932-33 Nazi-led coalition government?

This could serve as a right-wing version of the timeline's French Democratic Republic (planned for the timeline after WWII, and modeled after the multiparty East German state).

The reforged Nazi Party could very well find itself unable, after a devastating world war rocking a nation that saw civil war, the solidification of communist rule and accompanying radical economic and political changes, along with the mass devastation of entire villages, towns, and cities, to subject the nation to full scale Nazification.

Given such harsh conditions, Germans might not respond so well to the implementation of another party-state regime carrying out equally radical economic and political reforms in an exhausted, weary country.

Various other right-wing conservative political parties could rise from the ashes of communist rule (similar to what had happened in eastern Germany under Soviet occupation), joining a Nazi-led coalition government most similar to that found in the Wiemar Republic prior to the passing of the Reichstag Fire Decree and Enabling Act.

There's a good source book on Nazi Party primary documents that digs deep into the hammering out of a Nazi-dominated coalition with various other political parties such as the Centre Party. The German Communist Party or KPD would already be a dead letter, while I doubt that the French forces occupying Berlin would allow for an independent Social-Democratic Party in the new Reich.

The player could be given the option to rule in said coalition (however genuine, depending on who one asks), with accompanying events, or to jettison said multiparty alliance like in 1933 Germany and rule over a reforged German Empire alone and with absolute power.

Just a few (controversial) thoughts.
 

bean1

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I know that for game play reasons the player should have a wide variety of options concerning peace treaties, wars, civil wars, elections, etc. but that's what I have been mulling over for quite some time.

I want as much control over my novella timeline as much as possible; I'm aiming for a concise, well researched history book-style narrative that explores such themes as the brutality of the 1930's Soviet regime, fascism and persecution of Jews and other minorities, revolution and counterrevolution, differing presidents in the U.S. who make fateful, world changing decisions, and so forth.

I was initially aiming for roughly 50 pages, but I soon realized that it'll probably go way over that length as the first several (long) sections of the timeline only cover 1921 (the formation of the German Communist Party, the early development of the Chinese Marxist movement, the Kronstadt Naval Rebellion, etc.).

The cutoff date was also set for 1950, but I could very well go up until modern times, covering the entirety of an alternate Cold War.

So, probably 100+ pages (also the aim for my Fallout fan fiction, Fallout: The Utah Front, which has a prologue numbering over roughly 12 pages)

That being said, I feel that in game terms it would get a bit crazy if the player could take over the world with Trotsky at the helm, have France occupy Germany and put a conservative, fascistic right wing regime in power, elect bevy of U.S. presidents ranging from Huey Long to Charles Lindbergh instead of Alfred E. Smith, etc.

IMHO, that's what happened to Kaiserreich (a deeply enjoyable, creative, well thought out alternate history nonetheless). So much was added to an extreme degree without regard for plausibility, and more so for making the game fun for the player - essentially, the rule of cool just about.

With a flexible, unique point-of-divergence, (simple but efficient), it still makes for excellent alternate history.

However, maybe making Beneath the Crimson Banner into a full fledged game isn't for me.

I'm toying with a less involved, completely different timeline as a result, which I'd be happy to translate into game terms.

It would take place in 1936, borrowing elements from the defunct Reign of Terror mod, but would be wholly my own narrative complete with a Great Depression, a White Russia dominated by the military, a war torn alternate China, a plausible fascistic, or at the very least right-wing regime established in the United States (or a Socialist one, one based off of the Southern Victory series but radically different), a surviving Confederacy stretching from Arizona and New Mexico to Virginia, (including Cuba, but not Kentucky as both Lee's Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of Tennessee went on the defense, resulting in the pro-peace democrats rising to power in the Union in 1864, securing the C.S.A's independence), a monarchic German Union as a reference to Bring the Jubilee (an excellent novella written in first person from the point-of-view of young historian in the context of an Imperialist C.S., a rump, impoverished U.S., and an impending Second World War) , etc.

I'll probably work on that, as a sort-of shorter timeline that I plan nonetheless to make well thought out and creative.

That way, I can keep Beneath the Crimson Banner on my own path, while still creating a fun, playable alternate history mod.

Thoughts? Would anyone like to see the above scenario come to life as a mod?
 
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bean1

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EDIT: Does anyone know what code Darkest Hour is programmed in? I'm thinking of diving back into Python (a favorite programming language of mine, which I dabbled in also in my high school years, making simple text adventures and so forth).

I'm guessing DH isn't programmed in Python. I'm talking about the soft code, furthermore, not the unmoddable hard code.

That being said, a few ideas:

-The Polish Soviet Socialist Republic as a rump puppet state beholden to the USSR. In a (crappy) mod I had made in my pretentious high schools days, the map actually looked pretty nice with a Red Germany, an enlarged USSR, and a Soviet Poland sandwiched in between.

Thoughts?

-The Baltic states will definitely be incorporated into the USSR. Lithuania in the timeline over on the Alternate History Forum already ends up as an SSR, gaining control of Wilno, which Lithuania historically wanted from Poland. With an independent Polish state vanquished, the Soviets upon incorporating Lithuania into the fold as an SSR would not hesitate to give Lithuania want it wants.

As for the other two remaining Baltic states, they would probably not last very long. It would appear that their fate would be similar to Lithuania after the Red Army seizure of Warsaw and Soviet victory over Poland, but I'm not quite sure.

Some info from people more knowledgeable on the Baltic states (chiefly Latvia and Estonia) would be greatly appreciated.

-A Chinese Soviet Republic lacking Manchuria. The idea is that however brief, the Chinese Civil War temporarily weakens China as the communists struggle to establish control over the rest of the country after seizing several coastal and inland cities from the Nationalists (i.e. an earlier, successful 1927-28 revolution and civil war). The Japanese, obviously not too keen on having Red China on its doorstep just north of Japanese occupied Korea, takes Manchuria and with it a good chunk of China's industrial base.

This would also give the Japanese a launching off point for an invasion of Soviet China, that and the ability to at the very least launch minor skirmishes into Siberia with the goal of seizing Vladivostok.

A Pacific War wouldn't happen immediately with the United States (planned for the timeline as a conflict separate from WWII), allowing Japan to launch a spate of naval bombardments and coastal assaults across key areas along coastal China similar to real life.

Soviet China would not get much aid from the USSR, seeing as to how the Japanese invasion begins when most of the Soviet forces are concentrated in Germany, Poland, and Central Asia.

Thoughts? Advice?

I'm looking forward to feedback.:cool:
 

bean1

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The movement of a 1940s mechanised army through the hindu kush is frankly not that believable. India itself is a quagmire - virtually no roads, monsoon season, and a train network geared for commercial, not military use.

A quick reply.

Plausibly, couldn't Red Army engineers build at the very least a simple network of roads and railways running through the Hindu Kush?

If the Germans could (potentially) build up infrastructure in Libya and Egypt for tanks, mechanized brigades, and even infantry then what's stopping the Soviets from doing something similar in Afghanistan and India?

Second quick reply to:

The Communists never did that well in Indian elections, all things considered, and their promise of violently extirpating elements of the Indian social order would be less than welcome.

What need do the Indian communists have of elections (specifically multiparty elections) when they are being backed by the Soviet Red Army occupying British India?

India is a wildcard in the sense that the Soviets could handle it a number of different ways.

Other parties could be allowed to exist or not, which either way would makes things interesting.

It'd probably be federal, including, say, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

And of course, it'd be staunching socialist economically, (or state-capitalist, if India's communists decide that India isn't ready for full blown Marxian socialism a la Mao's China) with Indian communists calling the shots.

A possible name could be something like the "Indian Democratic Federal People's Republic."
 
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bean1

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Come spring break or summer I'll start working on the map.

At the very least, it will give me a rough idea of how the world of my timeline is to look by 1936.

Maybe I'll even set the mod, if I do decide to make it, in 1941 at the outbreak of a much different Second World War.
 

Kommandante.12

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Come spring break or summer I'll start working on the map.

At the very least, it will give me a rough idea of how the world of my timeline is to look by 1936.

Maybe I'll even set the mod, if I do decide to make it, in 1941 at the outbreak of a much different Second World War.
Nice to hear, glad this mod is still being worked on!
 

bean1

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Nice to hear, glad this mod is still being worked on!

I'll put the map up, but don't expect me to truly begin modding unless I choose to - The TL is kind of my baby and I don't want to tarnish it.

The map will give me a good idea of how I want the world of the TL over on the Alternate History Forum to look by 1936.
 

Kommandante.12

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I'll put the map up, but don't expect me to truly begin modding unless I choose to - The TL is kind of my baby and I don't want to tarnish it.

The map will give me a good idea of how I want the world of the TL over on the Alternate History Forum to look by 1936.
I see, anyway good luck with bringing the mod to life! Whenever you're ready too, don't let us rush you :p