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Aubrey

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And you will never find anything in the US with the name Lafayette on it either. In the overall history of the United States the current antagonism with the French is a relatively new thing that has more to do with Degaulle and post ww2 politics.

Umm...this is a silly statement. Lafayette is very well remembered and there any number of memorials and honors to him. Including the USS Lafayette (SSBN 616)...correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Lafayette and Churchill are the only non-Americans to have an active duty US warship named after them.
 

Sparrow

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Umm...this is a silly statement. Lafayette is very well remembered and there any number of memorials and honors to him. Including the USS Lafayette (SSBN 616)...correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Lafayette and Churchill are the only non-Americans to have an active duty US warship named after them.

Which is what I was saying with a bit of humor. :p
 

Aubrey

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Which is what I was saying with a bit of humor. :p

Sorry, my humor filter is as defective as the rest of my brain today....at least for another 4 hours until I make bail and get sprung from my cubicle!!
 

unmerged(7769)

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July 4th,1941
The US cabinet sat in office unaware that an impending attack in seven months time, on a "date which will live in infamy" would take place and push them into declaring war.

Susana, many thanks for the thoughts and the nice screenshots. I preordered a copy of the game.

I want to comment on the widely held but historically inaccurate view that the US was caught completely by surprise by the attack on Pearl Harbor. While even some history classes in the US still teach this view, many others teach the view that Roosevelt allowed the attack to happen in order to get the US into a war he believed was both necessary and inevitable. A fascinating book, A Man Called Intrepid, details how Roosevelt and Churchill cooperated to stop the Axis powers long before the US entered the war. The intelligence services of Britain and the US were run from New York City under the leadership of a Canadian citizen, and in many ways the US violated even its own neutrality laws prior to entering the war. Roosevelt seemed intent on provoking Germany into an act of agression that would bring the US into the war over the wishes of the isolationist US citizens. Under Roosevelt's leadership, and with full cooperation of his cabinent, the US began to gear up for war long before Pearl Harbor. The US expanded both its industrial war-making capability as well as its military, but had to do so over the political objections of the domestic opposition. It is well documented that the US knew that Japan was making plans for an attack on Pearl Harbor many months before it happened, and some precautions had been taken, although they proved to be ineffective. Within weeks of the attack the armed services were told to expect an attack. When the attack occured the battleships that were sunk were obsolete and had to be replaced anyway. Nonetheless, except for the Arizona they were repaired and used in the war for shore bombardment and similar activities. The essential ships, the carriers, were out to sea at the time of the attack and the documented orders they were under was to attack any Japanese naval vessel on sight. These were war orders. Although the US public was caught by surprise, the US not only expected an attack but seemed to be attempting to provoke an incident either by Germany or Japan in order to overcome isolationist resistance to a war that was understood to be inevitable. Perhaps some people still cling to the idea that Roosevelt and other leaders were caught by surprise since it is uncomfortable to think that they "sacrificed" US military personnel and ships, but the historical facts make it hard to deny.
 

Easy Max

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Susana, many thanks for the thoughts and the nice screenshots. I preordered a copy of the game.

I want to comment on the widely held but historically inaccurate view that the US was caught completely by surprise by the attack on Pearl Harbor. While even some history classes in the US still teach this view, many others teach the view that Roosevelt allowed the attack to happen in order to get the US into a war he believed was both necessary and inevitable. A fascinating book, A Man Called Intrepid, details how Roosevelt and Churchill cooperated to stop the Axis powers long before the US entered the war. The intelligence services of Britain and the US were run from New York City under the leadership of a Canadian citizen, and in many ways the US violated even its own neutrality laws prior to entering the war. Roosevelt seemed intent on provoking Germany into an act of agression that would bring the US into the war over the wishes of the isolationist US citizens. Under Roosevelt's leadership, and with full cooperation of his cabinent, the US began to gear up for war long before Pearl Harbor. The US expanded both its industrial war-making capability as well as its military, but had to do so over the political objections of the domestic opposition. It is well documented that the US knew that Japan was making plans for an attack on Pearl Harbor many months before it happened, and some precautions had been taken, although they proved to be ineffective. Within weeks of the attack the armed services were told to expect an attack. When the attack occured the battleships that were sunk were obsolete and had to be replaced anyway. Nonetheless, except for the Arizona they were repaired and used in the war for shore bombardment and similar activities. The essential ships, the carriers, were out to sea at the time of the attack and the documented orders they were under was to attack any Japanese naval vessel on sight. These were war orders. Although the US public was caught by surprise, the US not only expected an attack but seemed to be attempting to provoke an incident either by Germany or Japan in order to overcome isolationist resistance to a war that was understood to be inevitable. Perhaps some people still cling to the idea that Roosevelt and other leaders were caught by surprise since it is uncomfortable to think that they "sacrificed" US military personnel and ships, but the historical facts make it hard to deny.



Err ahh -- To start, I would say that I am not entirely dedicated to either school of thought. That said, there are some fairly large holes in your argument. For example: there was never any guarantee that Germany would DoW the U.S after a Japanese attack. Thus the argument that the U.S's provocation towards Germany has little to nothing to do with Japan (in fact, one could conclude that Japan and Germany were obviously not directly allied as Japan didnt enter the war with the U.S.S.R in June of '41).

Additionally - there are other potential explanations to some of the coincidental evidence. The U.S had absolutely been meddling around in Japanese affairs for some time before Pearl harbor. Our Oil Embargo was only the last step in a line of anti-japanese military rhetoric (Condeming the invasion of China, both in 1932 and 1937). With the U.S leveraging itself politically and economically in the Far-East, it isnt surprising that at some point they'd dig in in-case of an attack (but it's important to note that preparing for an potential attack, and expecting it are different).

Finally, if the U.S were to have predicted that Japan would attack (and thusly moved the Aircraft Carriers out of Pearl Harbor) - why were the Phillipines left with such a shortage of equipment, supplies and men.


This thread has been taken sufficiently OT enough by my counter-argument - I apologize to Susanna and everyone else, just wanted to muse a bit!

-- Screenshots are AWESOME. Truth be told, it's that political one that got me all excited!! Cannae wait!!
 

Greybriar

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Now we know why he chose the nick "Lone Ranger" eh, Easy Max.
 

l3illyl3ob

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There seems to be a fair number of people who want to go out of their way to downplay our national holiday. Strange that it's coming from people who celebrate their own independence or foundations. Let us, for a brief moment, be happy that we exist as a nation :).
 

unmerged(7769)

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Err ahh -- To start, I would say that I am not entirely dedicated to either school of thought. That said, there are some fairly large holes in your argument. For example: there was never any guarantee that Germany would DoW the U.S after a Japanese attack. Thus the argument that the U.S's provocation towards Germany has little to nothing to do with Japan (in fact, one could conclude that Japan and Germany were obviously not directly allied as Japan didnt enter the war with the U.S.S.R in June of '41).

Additionally - there are other potential explanations to some of the coincidental evidence. The U.S had absolutely been meddling around in Japanese affairs for some time before Pearl harbor. Our Oil Embargo was only the last step in a line of anti-japanese military rhetoric (Condeming the invasion of China, both in 1932 and 1937). With the U.S leveraging itself politically and economically in the Far-East, it isnt surprising that at some point they'd dig in in-case of an attack (but it's important to note that preparing for an potential attack, and expecting it are different).

Finally, if the U.S were to have predicted that Japan would attack (and thusly moved the Aircraft Carriers out of Pearl Harbor) - why were the Phillipines left with such a shortage of equipment, supplies and men.


This thread has been taken sufficiently OT enough by my counter-argument - I apologize to Susanna and everyone else, just wanted to muse a bit!

-- Screenshots are AWESOME. Truth be told, it's that political one that got me all excited!! Cannae wait!!

Easy Max, you give me far to much credit, this is not "my" argument.

About the buildup of US war capability prior to Pearl Harbor there can be little doubt. In 1940 the US instituted a draft, authorized a substantial increase in the size of the army and allocated funds to increase the size of the navy by 70%. Between 1940 and 1941 US production of aircraft increased six-fold. And so forth.

As far as the US, Germany, and Japan..."At the end of September 1940 the Tripartite Pact between Japan, Italy and Germany formalized the Axis Powers. The pact stipulated that any country, with the exception of the Soviet Union, not in the war which attacked any Axis Power would be forced to go to war against all three. The Soviet Union expressed interest in joining the Tripartite Pact, sending a modified draft to Germany in November, offering a very German-favourable economic deal; while Germany remained silent on the former, they accepted the latter. Regardless of the pact, the United States continued to support the United Kingdom and China by introducing the Lend-Lease policy and creating a security zone spanning roughly half of the Atlantic Ocean where the United States Navy protected British convoys. As a result, Germany and the United States found themselves engaged in sustained, if undeclared, naval warfare in the North Atlantic by October 1941, even though the United States remained officially neutral."

Roosevelt himself ordered that the Pacific Fleet be headquartered at Pearl Harbor, rather than its former location in San Diego, as a response to anticipated Japanese hostilities. Roosevelt also ordered a buildup of forces in the Philippines. Those who argue that he did not suspect that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor first point to the fact that he, and other leaders, believed that the Philippines would be their first target, but nobody argues that the US did not expect an attack by the Japanese by the end of 1941. The oil embargo was considered by many Japanese to be an unofficial declaration of war, and US leaders understood that this would force the Japanese to act against the US or halt their military actions in Asia. In studying why US forces in Hawaii did not detect the Japanese fleet the fact is often cited that because of the US buildup in the Philippines there simply were not enough airplanes in Hawaii that were capable of performing long range patrol activities.

Roosevelt is reported to have discussed how the US could manuver the Japanese into "shooting the first shot", and he understood that only a significant action could get the US public out of its isolationist mood. The Germans had already sunk several US merchant ships in 1941, and had torpedoed one US destroyer and sunk another (the Reuben James) in October 1941.

In the aftermath of Pearl Harbor Nimitz claimed that it was a "blessing" that the fleet was attacked while in harbor because had Kimmel been aware of the oncoming Japanese fleet he would likely have sortied out and the whole US fleet would have been sunk at sea where it could not be recovered.

As history shows, once the Japanese and Americans were formally at war Germany and Italy quickly declared war on the US as well. What was apparently not known to the Japanese is that our standing war plans were such that if we found ourselves at war with Japan we would fight a war of containment in the Pacific until we defeated the Axis powers in Europe. The Japanese had been counting on us rushing all available forces to the Philippines.

All investigations into Pearl Harbor concluded that there was a lot of confusion, ineptness, and even incompetence in the US political and military leadership, but they were not quite as stupid and blind as some people seem willing to believe. One could argue that the US did too little too late, but to argue that the US did nothing until Pearl Harbor is about like arguing that the earth is flat.
 

unmerged(63310)

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I am not sure if I believe Roosevelt knew Pearl Harbor was coming but it should be indisputable that he was preparing for war, primarily with Germany as the American view of the Japanese was somewhat prejudiced as well as many studies indicating Japanese industry could never mount a serious threat to US. However- Roosevelt as a person was one of the big picture mentality and on more than a few occasions during the war was perfectly willing to sacrifice a few people to achieve something. If in his mind he believed the war already started and since he had been engaged in war preparations and receiving reports of actions in the N Atlantic for some time by 1941 I think he was perfectly capable to allow some men sacrificed to achieve full political support in the US which was a key part of leveraging US industry to win the war quickly.

I do believe Roosevelt believed MacArthurs promises to be able to defend the Philippines and that was a large miscalculation but Roosevelt and the US Navy had been keeping track for months of the IJN massing ships and preparing logistically for an attack... the Japanese successfully hid exactly where the attack was going to take place, but not that one was coming. I've also read a few places that Japanese Embassy tried to get a meeting at the White House for several hours before the attack but were held off by the staff so a Declaration of War could not be presented... that is purely political move so Roosevelt could make his famous speech and do much to justify the total war transformation of the economy. The fear that Roosevelt and Churchill shared was that either Germany or Soviets would gain control of majority of Europe and the US needed to be ready to stop whichever gained the upper hand. Propaganda against Soviets began as soon as Stalingrad fell.