Beginner's Guide to Ethics, Traits and Governments

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jju_57

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I "won" and insane game but did it because the other empires were bad. It was only a 600 star galaxy and I used 4 less empires. I was a pacifist and got lucky with xenophile pacifist empires near me. Eventually the late game crisis came and it was the invasion from another galaxy. I built my fleet and waited. The invasion slowly destroyed almost all the other empires. I finally fought them with a fleet just 60% of their size but had lots of PD corvettes. I protected my borders till the other empires were reduced to a fraction of what they had or were completely destroyed. I then slowly defeated the invasion and got their queen. After that is was just mopup for the win.
 

PotatoOverdose

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Have any of you guys successfully finished a game on Insane/Aggressive AI (or just Insane)? What build do you think is most suited for Insane difficulty? It seems that the early expansion is crucial while tech is less important since there's no way you can catch up to the AI in tech (at least early on).

I've been thinking that a combined slavery/happiness build might do pretty well. Something along the likes of Collectivist/Spiritualist/Pacifist or Xenophile with Divine Mandate and Thrifty/Industrious race. This will allow you to use slavery in the early game, as well as have some happiness boosts and minimize ethics divergence mid game. Once you've teched up enough, it's also possible to switch to Irenic Monarchy for (almost) free edicts.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are straight up slavery builds (Fanatic Collectivist/Spiritualist Despotic Empire) or happiness builds better on Insane?
So, happiness and slavery don't actually mix well in that slaves don't get any bonus from happiness at all. Moreover, non-slave pops that are at 90% happiness get the same food and production bonus (20%) while also gaining an energy and research bonus (20%) that slave pops don't get, as well as reduced ethics divergence from more happiness.

On the other hand, with Despotic Empire, slaves get another 10% production/food which is good, but more importantly, the empire gets a -15% building cost modifier, which means you can get your infrastructure built up that much sooner. First time I beat insane was with a despotic empire build. Since then I prefer Moral Democracy / Fanatic Spiritual / Pacifist / Industrious / Enduring / Sedantry. Still has early game production, but also happiness for overall benefits throughout the game.

Insane (no aggressive AI) is actually not that difficult to beat tbh. With a good production build you can grab more territory than the non advanced-start empires early on. With more territory, you'll have more production and fleet cap than your non-advanced neighbors by year 30 or 40 (sooner with a good start), and then you can start warring to get even more territory and snowball. Or you could just relax and play with a fanatic xenophile/charismatic build. Embassies on any neighboring xenophobes, and as long as you don't start near fanatical purifiers, no one will attack you. Takes much longer to catch up to the insane_ai without snowballing production via early conquest though.

Of course Insane with aggresive AI is a different beast entirely, because the AI gets 100% bonus to everything, and then actually uses that bonus to kill the weak little runts (i.e. you). So, you need good production, fleets, etc. and you're screwed if you start near an advanced AI. But you're also screwed if the advanced AI's don't start near you because they'll gobble up all the non-advanced AI's so one of them will probably control 40%-60% of the map by year 90 or so. So yeah, fun times.
 
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maxirage

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I think the arguments for the Industrious trait are very compelling. After playing a few games, I have come to the conclusion that the + tile output traits are worthless in the midgame and beyond. You're gonna have too many xenos and robots for them to be relevant, and you'll gain a lot more resources from expansion then you will by working tiles with your primary race. In that sense, the only time when these traits matter is in the very early game. And in the very early game, minerals are king. Choosing industrious basically means trading away trait points for an advantage at gamestart, but considering how much of a snowball effect this game has, that's probably worth it. I personally have chosen to never use tile output traits anymore, but Industrious does seem like a nice choice if you're making an early game gambit.
 

type81

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So, happiness and slavery don't actually mix well in that slaves don't get any bonus from happiness at all. Moreover, non-slave pops that are at 90% happiness get the same food and production bonus (20%) while also gaining an energy and research bonus (20%) that slave pops don't get, as well as reduced ethics divergence from more happiness.

On the other hand, with Despotic Empire, slaves get another 10% production/food which is good, but more importantly, the empire gets a -15% building cost modifier, which means you can get your infrastructure built up that much sooner. First time I beat insane was with a despotic empire build. Since then I prefer Moral Democracy / Fanatic Spiritual / Pacifist / Industrious / Enduring / Sedantry. Still has early game production, but also happiness for overall benefits throughout the game.

Insane (no aggressive AI) is actually not that difficult to beat tbh. With a good production build you can grab more territory than the non advanced-start empires early on. With more territory, you'll have more production and fleet cap than your non-advanced neighbors by year 30 or 40 (sooner with a good start), and then you can start warring to get even more territory and snowball. Or you could just relax and play with a fanatic xenophile/charismatic build. Embassies on any neighboring xenophobes, and as long as you don't start near fanatical purifiers, no one will attack you. Takes much longer to catch up to the insane_ai without snowballing production via early conquest though.

Of course Insane with aggresive AI is a different beast entirely, because the AI gets 100% bonus to everything, and then actually uses that bonus to kill the weak little runts (i.e. you). So, you need good production, fleets, etc. and you're screwed if you start near an advanced AI. But you're also screwed if the advanced AI's don't start near you because they'll gobble up all the non-advanced AI's so one of them will probably control 40%-60% of the map by year 90 or so. So yeah, fun times.

Do you think that the benefits of high happiness overall outweigh those of slavery? I'm not talking about the base bonuses (equivalent 20% mineral output), but slavery allows you to add an extra 10-20% minerals from Despotic/Star Empire, 15% from the slave processing center plus an extra stacking 10% from stimulant diet. That's why I think that a mild (20%) happiness bonus (5% spiritualist, 5% void cloud, 10% from ruler if lucky or from pacifist/xenophile) coupled with slavery might be better than either slavery or happiness alone, since it would bring up the energy credit/research yield by another 10%. I guess we'll need to see whether slave revolts will be reintroduced in the Asimov patch and how dangerous they'll be.
 

PotatoOverdose

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Do you think that the benefits of high happiness overall outweigh those of slavery? I'm not talking about the base bonuses (equivalent 20% mineral output), but slavery allows you to add an extra 10-20% minerals from Despotic/Star Empire, 15% from the slave processing center plus an extra stacking 10% from stimulant diet. That's why I think that a mild (20%) happiness bonus (5% spiritualist, 5% void cloud, 10% from ruler if lucky or from pacifist/xenophile) coupled with slavery might be better than either slavery or happiness alone, since it would bring up the energy credit/research yield by another 10%. I guess we'll need to see whether slave revolts will be reintroduced in the Asimov patch and how dangerous they'll be.
First, it isn't just happiness. Despotic Empire is a dictatorship which means you have absolutely no control of your leader traits. Leader traits can be amazingly strong. To name a few: +10% Empire Happiness, , -25% minining station build cost, -20% corvette build cost, -15% building cost, +10% Empire Energy, +10% empire minerals. All democracies get to pick an empire leader 5 years in from their leader pool. And by spending 50-100 influence for support during an election, can keep him for life. That's terrifically strong, especially in the early game, probably the single strongest feature of any government and is enough to put moral democracy/fan spiritual/industrious ahead of despotic empire imo.

Second, slavery doesn't scale that well in the mid to late game. There's basically four ways to expand in stellaris: Colonization, Conquer and Assimilate, Conquer and Enslave, and conquer-purge-migrate. Conquer, purge the xenos, and moving your own pops (or robots) in isn't viable because the diplo penalties will get you killed on insane-aggressive AI. Colonization stops being a major way forward once all the territory is snapped up. Conquering and enslaving gives you all of the conquered pops production, but next to no energy or research. Conquer and assimilate gives you everything: production, energy, and science. Assimilating is the most effective form of snowballing. The best way to assimilate is to stack empire happiness modifiers. Irenic democracy with the spiritual void cloud event and a leader with "man of the people" gets you +35% empire happiness. A decent governor for the conquered sector can get your new pops up to another 10%. That's +45% happiness for new subjects. So freshly conquered xenos can start fairly happy and become absolutely ecstatic after 25 years. Even assimilating xenophobes isn't that difficult. And happy pops don't join factions. Well, not enough to cause any significant issues at any rate.

Don't get me wrong - despotic empire is superb, especially for playing on insane. It's just that moral democracy is probably a bit better. Stack with pop happiness modifiers and industrious for early game production. Pick a leader with man of the people or space miner, or both. Mid-late game, stack empire happiness for maximum snowball.
 
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CrabHelmet

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I'm inclined to agree with PotatoOverdose. Colonization, conquest, and vassal integration do really give opportunity costs to one another; you can and should be doing all three simultaneously where you have the opportunity. After conquest, you have a choice about what to do with existing POPs. Under the status quo, they'll be less effective than your own POPs, partially because as a good player your POPs' traits will be minmaxed to the optimum level, and partially because they suffer happiness bonuses. You have three ways of doing something about this: you can enslave them, you can assimilate them, or you can purge them. Enslaving is... soso. You get +20% to Minerals and Food, but this is the same as Joyful's bonus through Happiness which is achievable for essentially all POPs by late mid-game. Slavery only has an advantage for late early-game and mid-game proper. You can use Despotic Empire... but that means giving up choice over leadership traits, which is a huge misfire given how powerful they are. You can use Iron First Governor... but that ties you in to a specific governor and can make you dependent on luck of the draw. You also have to quite heavily gear your ethos towards slavery to prevent the happiness implications from being too negative, which can be frustrating. Purging is just straight up bad, you're severely curtailing your growth compared to assimilation because you're eliminating POPs to make way for good ones, which is a much longer process than just turning bad POPs into good ones directly.

In Stellaris, you win by having 40% of the planets or no other independent empires. There are three ways of acquiring new planets: colonization, integration, and conquest. It is strongly unlikely you can achieve 40% of the planets without using conquest, so being able to conquer efficiently as possible and being able to colonize as efficiently as possible are the best ways to win Stellaris. Thankfully, these two things are orthogonal - you don't really incur any opportunity costs, doing both at the same time is both possible and the best way of playing. Stellaris' combat is quite simple. There's very little strategic depth - land warfare is pointless, you can win effectively any war without it even in MP and the rare occasions you do need it, it can be generated very quickly. Defensive warfare is pointless - all the different fortifications last at best a few seconds against a large fleet. Ship design doesn't matter much - it can make minor changes here and there, but generally speaking, the bigger fleet wins. So efficient conquest means maximizing fleet size.

Fleet size is constrained by three things: naval capacity, mineral output, and energy output. Naval capacity is increased by spaceports, and population. The +5 bonus for building a spaceport is larger than any of the increments, and building a spaceport is cheaper than upgrading them, so it's more efficient to build more spaceports (wide) than it is to improve spaceports (tall). So the best way to increase naval capacity is conquest itself, or colonization. So this merges into colonization, which I'll touch on later. For population, we have four ways of increasing population: growth, robots, conquest, integration. We've reached conquest itself again, so we can ignore that. Growth is best maximized through colonization, because pop growth has diminishing returns - each extra POP for a planet is a little harder to grow than the last. So that goes back to colonization. Robots require minerals and energy, as mentioned above. There's very little you can do to impact integration.

It is also impacted by technology, government, ruler traits, and edicts. Because technology is random, a minmaxing player won't rely on it too much - they will value technology as a category but not rely on any specific technology because of the unreliability; technology is best viewed as a random buffs which you can increase the MTTH for than something you can treat to strategically. The governments that aid naval capacity stop you being able to select the best ruler traits, so they are zero-sum, and ruler traits offer flexibility in other areas, so we can ignore that. The edicts are unlocked by tech again or anomaly, so we can discard those. So we haven't learnt anything from these.

The other limits on conquest we mentioned are mineral output and energy output. So we're looking to maximize these. There are a number of ways of doing so. The first is to increase the number of POPs we have, given planet tiles in conjunction with a POP can produce the above. The second way is to build mining stations, but these are orthogonal again and both can and should be done. The third is to improve the efficiency of our POPs. We can do the latter through a number of ways. One is Slavery, one is Robots, one is Happiness, one is Ethos, one is Traits, one is Techs. As mentioned, techs are sufficiently random they should be perceived passively. Slavery, as mentioned above, is subpar compared to Happiness. Sufficient Happiness strictly dominates Robots as a strategic option (aside from Robots being slightly faster to establish, depending on how well you colonize), as Droids provide +15% to minerals whereas Joyful is +20% (this isn't to say don't use Robots; but Happiness is more strategically valuable). None of the Ethoi directly affect minerals, so we're left with Individualist for Energy Credits as a potential option. As far as Traits go, we have Industrious and Thrifty. In the early game, most of your mineral income will be from Mining Stations; Industrious only affects POP output and so doesn't offer good returns until later. Given Stellaris has a heavy snowball effect as the two things necessary for victory are mutually reinforcing, early boni are always better than later ones. We'll remember Individualist and Thrifty for discussion later. We also indirectly have traits like Charismatic that affect Happiness and so output and so fleet size and so the victory conditions.

So we're typically drawn to the conclusion that what matters is Happiness and Colonization, and the earlier they're available, the better. Our starting planet has 70% happiness (60% base plus 10%); if we can get it to 90%, we're starting with the same boost as Industrious, Thrifty, and Intelligent combined with a little bit more on top! From the start, you can access Moral Democray for +10% if you went Pacifist. Spiritualist gives you +5%. Finding a Void Cloud gives you 5% given Spiritualist. That's our 90%, from very early on. We could go Fanatic Spiritualist to access it immediately, but going Fanatic is usually not a good idea because it rules out width of options. With a Champion of the People for +10%, you can access 90% Happiness off the bat anyway, and also reach it on any same-habitat planet (which will be all your early-game planets). This gives us strong reason to want Spiritualist and Pacifist.

However, we want Spiritualist (eventually) to be on all our POPs, for that +5% happiness boost and also to prevent negative happiness from opposite ethos. Different ethoi is the main obstacle to happiness for conquered POPs, so we want to assimilate them as quickly as possible. We could do this via government with the Transcendental line, but this will do very little in the early-game compared to Moral Democracy, so we have reason to ignore it. As for buildings, there is the Grand Mausoleum, but that's locked away from Democracies, so no go. Militarist's building gives a small per-planet boost, which is immensely soso. Collectivist gives us the Ministry of Benevolence, for an Empire-Wide (!!) -15%. That's a stunning boost, you'll have xenos converging in no-time, all your POPs will be Joyful, and you have +20% output in everything, which is very difficult to beat for any other combination... unfortunately it doesn't go with Democracy.

So, we can pretty strongly say Moral Democracy is the best government, and Pacifist is required. Pacifist does give -10% happiness in war, but that's cancelled out by Moral Democracy anyway. We also want Spiritualist for the Happiness boost. The remaining debate is Collectivist vs. Individualist, and we also need to sort out Traits.

The slavery tolerance from Collectivist/Individualist is pointless because we're not going to be slaving. Individualist's reduced energy credits gives us a slight advantage very early on. Collectivist, however, has a vastly better end-game building, largely better techs, and can access The Collective Self for improved leaders. If it weren't for Moral Democracy, I'd side with Collectivist, but as is...

As far as Traits are concerned: Adaptive is pointless, with the above you'll assimilate POPs so fast you can just use conquered races as easily as your own so you're not going to be worrying much about habitability. Agrarian is too expansive for such a small effect. Charismatic is too small an impact; by the time you have a diverse enough empire for it to be truly useful, you won't be having problems anyway. Communal is unnecessary given the above. Extremely Adaptive same as Adaptive. Industrious doesn't have very much impact in the early-game, where we want it to. Ditto for all the research traits. Nomadic is... mostly pointless. Resilient is meh, we're not going to be on the defensive and even if we were, defense is terrible in Stellaris compared to having a bigger fleet. Strong is pointless because armies are useless, ditto Very Strong.

That leaves us with: Conformist, Enduring, Quick Learners, Rapid Breeders, Talented, Thrifty and Venerable under consideration. Planets outside 30% range or 20% with a sector will still get some small divergence without Conformist, so in the late early-game it can be useful. Enduring means that, given we went Collectivist, we can accomodate for not being able to go with Leader Enhancements. Ditto for Quick Learners, enduring, Venerable, and Talented. Thrifty and Rapid Breeders aid our early output. This is a little less clear, I think. Personally, I don't bother with Conformist; by the time I'm expanding enough for it to genuinely matter, there's other means of coping. It can give a little security but often becomes redundant. Between Thrifty and Rapid Breeders, I'd rather have Thrifty because Thrifty means faster colonization which means faster POPs than Rapid Breeders. Between Quick Learners and Talented, I'd rather go with Quick Learners. Talented costs +2 which is really slightly too expensive given how fast Quick Learners go from Skill 1 -> Skill 2, and Quick Learners are strictly better after that for obvious reasons. Venerable is much too expensive at +4 and you don't see returns for a long time (logically until when your leaders would otherwise have died).

So we get down to Quick Learners, Enduring, Thrifty. The +2 cost of Thrifty is for me enough to push it out of contention; Quick Learners and Enduring means you get better leaders for longer earlier on and at the cost of less Influence, which is surprisingly significant later. However, I can see Thrifty being preferable for very aggressive early play. Obviously Weak is the negative trait and that's pretty straightforward. This gives us a free point to use, so we can backtrack to Communal from earlier or go with Rapid Breeders. I find that Rapid Breeders is marginally more useful; it helps with sectors because they don't manage growth very well.

So my money is on Pacifist / Spiritualist / Individualist Moral Democracy, with Quick Learners, Enduring, Weak and Rapid Breeders. I'm pretty open to persuasion on changing around the Traits for Communal, Conformist, Charismatic, or Thrifty, I think there's stuff to be said for them, but I'm pretty certain that the government and ethoi are the best you can go with.
 
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CrabHelmet

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As far as potential balancing goes, I think some of the ethoi need to be changed quite badly. Materialist and Spiritualist are in close competition but given that happiness increases research output, Materialist is covered by Spiritualist in conjunction with other Happiness techs. This applies to a lot of stuff, really, happiness is just so good, a flat +20% to everything is almost always the best option. I don't think the right answer is necessarily to buff Materialist/nerf Spiritualist, because both of them are very powerful in their own right, but I do think Happiness needs to be reduced in value slightly. Xenophile has limited uses in SP because of how it interacts with diplomacy, although it is a little luck-related, but both Xenophile and Xenophobe are close to irrelevant in MP; they just don't do anything noticeable at least until genetic engineering when you put Xenophile on everything that isn't sufficiently happy. Both of them need something to aid them in the start-game. Individualist and Collectivist are perhaps the best balanced two, but I feel Collectivist's building could be toned down just a notch and maybe Individualist's techs made just a little better. Militarist needs to boost fleet strength and not army strength; maybe given a bonus to ship part research as well. There's not really any point in the game you'd rather be Militarist than Pacifist, it's the easiest choice between two polar ethics.
 

CrabHelmet

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I think the arguments for the Industrious trait are very compelling. After playing a few games, I have come to the conclusion that the + tile output traits are worthless in the midgame and beyond. You're gonna have too many xenos and robots for them to be relevant, and you'll gain a lot more resources from expansion then you will by working tiles with your primary race. In that sense, the only time when these traits matter is in the very early game. And in the very early game, minerals are king. Choosing industrious basically means trading away trait points for an advantage at gamestart, but considering how much of a snowball effect this game has, that's probably worth it. I personally have chosen to never use tile output traits anymore, but Industrious does seem like a nice choice if you're making an early game gambit.

I think Thrifty is better than Industrious if you're going that way. Most of your energy is gathered on planets, most of your minerals are gathered in mining stations (in the early game at least). Industrious affects minerals gathered by POPs, so you get a +15% boost to that, but through Industrious, you get a +15% boost to energy, which means you can support 15% more mining stations, which, given you have more mineral output from mining than energy, means Thrifty actually gives you more mineral output, just indirectly.
 

Serenity84

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Xenophile has limited uses in SP because of how it interacts with diplomacy
Xenophile + immigration treaties with suitable species = lots of happiness in the long run

Together with some happiness buffing buildings you can get joyful on many planets with many pops. Not quite as easily as spiritual, but it's pretty great.
 

CrabHelmet

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Xenophile + immigration treaties with suitable species = lots of happiness in the long run

Together with some happiness buffing buildings you can get joyful on many planets with many pops. Not quite as easily as spiritual, but it's pretty great.

I agree. The trouble with Xenophile's Happiness bonus is that it won't come into play for quite a while. You're probably not going to have multi-pop planets in large numbers until at least 40-50 years in; the head-start Spiritualist gives you in that time is much better. By the time Xenophile would really start having an impact, you can engineer it. It's not that Xenophile is bad in and of itself, it's just made redundant by other things.

Honestly, I'd be interested to see how trait balance felt if genetic engineering was restricted more. Because you can change traits almost at will in the late mid-game, traits only really matter as distinct choices in the early-game, which makes some of the traits worse than they might otherwise have been. Xenophile especially struggles with this.
 

Serenity84

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The trouble with Xenophile's Happiness bonus is that it won't come into play for quite a while. You're probably not going to have multi-pop planets in large numbers until at least 40-50 years in; the head-start Spiritualist gives you in that time is much better.
Which is really fine with me. I don't min/max things. I don't need to be the strongest right out of the gate. Getting stronger a bit later can be ok as long as you survive the start.

By the time Xenophile would really start having an impact, you can engineer it.
Genetically altered pops really shouldn't be treated as xenos. Xenophobes also have a huge problem with that. And on a practical level it clutters up some UI elements like the empire composition pie chart.
 

CrabHelmet

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Which is really fine with me. I don't min/max things. I don't need to be the strongest right out of the gate. Getting stronger a bit later can be ok as long as you survive the start.

Sure, that's fine, whatever floats your boat. Obviously everyone has different playstyles; I just like the technical aspect of minmaxing. :)

Genetically altered pops really shouldn't be treated as xenos. Xenophobes also have a huge problem with that. And on a practical level it clutters up some UI elements like the empire composition pie chart.

Agreed very strongly.
 

Novacat

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Wall o text

My biggest disagreement is probably going to be Spiritualist. My biggest problem with Spiritualist (and the biggest balancing factor around them) is that they get very, very angry at any synth/robot policies short of outlawing them. They also get upset at selected lineages/capacity boosters. This is a pretty steep cost for 10% happiness. While Robots are slightly less optimised early game, with only 15% material production vs 20%, late-game they become production monsters, with Share the Burden and Joyful, they can have +60% research, energy credit, and mineral production.

The real question is Individualist vs Collectivist. I imagine, contrary to your thinking, that for your strategy, Collectivist is probably going to be better. Your strat requires wide empire (since you need to snowball to make up for late game inefficiency) and you will be needing that ethos divergance bonus.
 

CrabHelmet

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My biggest disagreement is probably going to be Spiritualist. My biggest problem with Spiritualist (and the biggest balancing factor around them) is that they get very, very angry at any synth/robot policies short of outlawing them. They also get upset at selected lineages/capacity boosters. This is a pretty steep cost for 10% happiness. While Robots are slightly less optimised early game, with only 15% material production vs 20%, late-game they become production monsters, with Share the Burden and Joyful, they can have +60% research, energy credit, and mineral production.

The real question is Individualist vs Collectivist. I imagine, contrary to your thinking, that for your strategy, Collectivist is probably going to be better. Your strat requires wide empire (since you need to snowball to make up for late game inefficiency) and you will be needing that ethos divergance bonus.

I don't find Robots especially useful until Synths are reached. Fine, you get +10% minerals, but that often doesn't seem worth the 1 per Robot energy cost. Put it this way: 1 energy cost per time period is the difference in maintenance between Mining Network II and Mining Network IV (I'll exclude V from the discussion as it is more restricted). The move from Mining Network II to Mining Network IV increases your mineral gain by +2 per time unit. Robots, compared to ordinary pops, have +10% at the start. So you need a base tile of 20 for Robots to offer better mineral/energy gain (40 * 0.1 = 4). When you get them to Droids, you can do a little better - it's now +15%, so you "only" need a base tile of 14. Neither of those are achievable. Now, I agree Synths are better than a pure Happiness focus (because they are themselves affected by Happiness); but you don't reach Synths for quite a long time. Certainly, most colonization will be done by that point. By contrast, a Happiness focus has *immediate* impact - you'll spend the whole early game with +20% on everything in your capital, and +10% elsewhere (and really +20% after not very long, all you need is one habitability tech and frontier clinics). 20% that early on snowballs tremendously; by the time other people reach Synthetics, you are waaay ahead of them.

I agree the difficult choice is Individualist vs. Collectivist. I narrowly give it to Individualist because Collectivist rules you out of Moral Democracy. so Collectivist's advantages are again late-game. However, I don't find that Ethics Divergence is a huge problem with a happiness focus. With Irenic Democracy, it is trivial to reach Joyful for everything except conquered Xenophobes. That's -20%. The Atmosphere Manipulator is -10% where needed, Reeducation Campaign is -10%, Information Quarantine is -10%, so we're at 50%. If you get Orbital Mind Control Lasers, you're at -30%, so we're now at 80%. This is enough for almost everything. It's a little bit of luck as to whether you can get OMCL, but I think all builds have to put up with a little bit of luck to get the tech that covers their weaker points. But I broadly agre with you Individualist vs. Collectivist is the most difficult choice to make.

I'm curious as to what you run. If you go Collectivist, between Commissars and Ministry you have enough to not need the Transcendent line, plus you don't do Spiritualist so couldn't anyway. That means you're either focusing on tech or slaves. One of Despotic Hegemony with Collectivist / Materialist / Xenophile; Despotic Empire with Fanatic Collectivist / Xenophile, or Science Directorate with Collectivist / Materialist / Xenophile? I think those are pretty good build as well. Also, what traits do you look for?
 

Novacat

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Yup, I seen what you were doing, Spiritualist with wide can work, but then you need collectivist because the distance penalties on ethos divergance is going to be brutal.

Collectivist/Materialist/Pacifist, Xenophile's bonuses are nice but they kick in way too late to matter (They do not work for droids/robots), Pacifist's Paradise Domes come much earlier, and provide a nice habitability boost. I have toyed with replacing Collectivist with Individualist, if only because I prefer tall empires and Individualist is much better in that regard. But I also like heavy tech gain and going collectivist lets me take Encourage Free Thought. Note that Encourage Free Thought/Information Quarentine's bonuses and maluses are global, which means they apply to research stations too.

So, Collectivist can get -40% divergance and +5% Research vs Individualist +20% Tile Energy Credit, -20% Divergance.

Also, what traits do you look for?

I like Venerable. I tried a short-lived species with quick learners and intellectual on one of my first playthroughs, but I was constantly burning through influence replacing my leaders and I was terribly dependant on RNG on the new leaders. It was very common for the picks to all be terrible choices. With Venerable, leaders with good traits I can hold onto forever and I can play the long game in cherrypicking leaders with the traits I want.

Enduring does help but the turnover is still there.

If genetic engineering worked properly, I would take Venerable later through genetic engineering and start with traits with more immediate benefit, but unfortunately that is not an option atm.
 
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CrabHelmet

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Yup, I seen what you were doing, Spiritualist with wide can work, but then you need collectivist because the distance penalties on ethos divergance is going to be brutal.

Collectivist/Materialist/Pacifist, Xenophile's bonuses are nice but they kick in way too late to matter (They do not work for droids/robots), Pacifist's Paradise Domes come much earlier, and provide a nice habitability boost. I have toyed with replacing Collectivist with Individualist, if only because I prefer tall empires and Individualist is much better in that regard. But I also like heavy tech gain and going collectivist lets me take Encourage Free Thought. Note that Encourage Free Thought/Information Quarentine's bonuses and maluses are global, which means they apply to research stations too. So, Collectivist can get -40% divergance and +5% Research vs Individualist +20% Tile Energy Credit, -20% Divergance.

I've often had Xenophile kick in earlier than Pacifist; but I agree Pacifist is more reliable - Xenophile will be better if you have nearby neighbours with similar planet preferences who are not Xenophobes, and worse if you don't, so it depends how risky you want to be. I agree that I prefer tall empires in general, but I don't think tall is viable in Stellaris. Individualist +20% tile energy translates into more research in the early game. That's 20% more observation stations, which is not quite 20% more tech because some of your tech is planetary, but it's a good boost. But yeah, Collectivist is an entirely viable choice; it depends on your playstyle I think.

I like Venerable. I tried a short-lived species with quick learners and intellectual on one of my first playthroughs, but I was constantly burning through influence replacing my leaders and I was terribly dependant on RNG on the new leaders. It was very common for the picks to all be terrible choices. With Venerable, leaders with good traits I can hold onto forever and I can play the long game in cherrypicking leaders with the traits I want.

Enduring does help but the turnover is still there.

I like Venerable, yeah. I just think it takes too long to pay off. Venerable doesn't make any difference to your game until your first generation of leaders dies, which is about 40 years in. That 40 years is, I think, the most important 40 year stretch in the game. Having some way to get skills up quickly in that period is very important. Talented is okay but it costs +2 to start at level 2 and with Quick Learner experience game is so quick and it only costs +1, so Talented doesn't seem worth it - it has a 5 year headstart on Quick Learner, maybe. Enduring then means Venerable, by comparison, takes another 70 years to pick up advantage, so you're really pushing it back. Influence isn't a problem because as you haven't gone collectivist, you can pick a democracy, and democracies produce Influence very quickly. That also frees up one final spot, which you can use as a utility spot for something minor. I agree if I went Collectivist and had less influence income, I'd value Venerable more.
 

Novacat

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It would be nice if genetic engineering worked so I could take more useful traits early on and then genetically engineer Venerable in when I would need it.
 

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There's not really any point in the game you'd rather be Militarist than Pacifist, it's the easiest choice between two polar ethics.

The only situation I can think of is if you find primitives near your homeworld. Pacifists can't invade them. A second homeworld with multiple pops for the price of an army or 2 is an AMAZING early boost.
 

arcticpulse

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However, I don't find that Ethics Divergence is a huge problem with a happiness focus. With Irenic Democracy, it is trivial to reach Joyful for everything except conquered Xenophobes. That's -20%. The Atmosphere Manipulator is -10% where needed, Reeducation Campaign is -10%, Information Quarantine is -10%, so we're at 50%. If you get Orbital Mind Control Lasers, you're at -30%, so we're now at 80%. This is enough for almost everything. It's a little bit of luck as to whether you can get OMCL, but I think all builds have to put up with a little bit of luck to get the tech that covers their weaker points.
Assuming you can get the gas for the Atmosphere Manipulator. The OMCL is, as you've said, somewhat luck based so it can't be reliably depended on. Would it be better to keep it simple and just roll with fanatical spiritualist and collectivist with Theocratic Oligarchy just for the passive ethics divergence? A nice side effect is that the ability turn on encourage free thought or information quarantine as necessary. Social welfare programs (15%) with fanatical spiritualist (10% + 5% for void clouds) is enough to bring it up to to 90% from the base happiness for that 20% bonus. Irenic Democracy is definitely stronger early game, but I can't help but wonder if the better ethics divergence options for collectivists would be better in the long run, especially for wide empires.

On traits, I'm curious as to why you wrote out extremely adaptive so soon. On the larger maps, having two additional world-types you can comfortably colonize and still get the joyful bonus is not insignificant. Especially considering it's down to luck as to whether your neighbors are any good at colonizing the worlds you can't. Venerable is another option I'm looking at, but I'm loathe to give up the additional worlds.
 

Novacat

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The only situation I can think of is if you find primitives near your homeworld. Pacifists can't invade them. A second homeworld with multiple pops for the price of an army or 2 is an AMAZING early boost.

You can do that without getting Militarist, only Pacifists/Xenophiles are restricted from that course of action.

Would it be better to keep it simple and just roll with fanatical spiritualist and collectivist with Theocratic Oligarchy just for the passive ethics divergence?

Fanatics in general are terrible choices because the perks of fanaticism are not worth the opportunity cost of passing up a third ethos, if you want high happiness, Spiritualist/Collectivist/Xenophile or Spiritualist/Collectivist/Pacifist would provide you better results. On top of this, normal Spiritualists would get less pissy about robots/selected lineages than fanatics.

Only if the policy restrictions prevent you from going that route, but that leaves you with just Militarist/Xenophobe which are both weak options.

Xenophobe would be a lot better if it just did not count Synths and Genetic Engineering. Then it would just be a diplomatic penalty for anyone going Synth/Genetic Engineering in exchange for a no-maintenance +10 happiness building and the ability to purge xenos.

Militarist is a lot more problematic. The main problem is that as an ethos on warmaking, it has very little benefit towards actual warmaking. The unique building is also the weakest unique building in the game, with -5% ethos divergance and +5% happiness, and a meaningless +10% army damage.

On top of this you have the story events where Xenophile/Pacifist/Spiritualist get a lot of nice bonuses from Void Clouds, Crystals, Amoebas and Mining Drones, wheras Militarist/Xenophobe just gets +% damage bonus towards space monsters which is an absolutly useless bonus. Replacing those useless bonuses with something actually beneficial would also go a long way towards imrpoving those ethos.