Before we get to responses, first let me apologize for my delay. Been busy with work - and that work requires a lot of writing. That, in turn, zaps my energy to do a lot more writing of these chapters, so a more lengthy delay happens. Not that I haven't been working on it at all... but when I'm doing extra writing for work in my spare time, I have less energy to put a chapter all together. Hopefully, the next chapter will be out in the next couple of days. Again, apologies, and thanks for your patience.
On to your comments!
Oh, I'd love a justification to steal more land. But there are more interesting targets that would serve Geoffrey's interest more. And I didn't have a good Casus Belli.
I was a little surprised by the desire to see Gilles killed by the comments here! And here I thought I was making Geoffrey all tyrannical - but you all understood his anger better than me! And yes, I think Agnes realized at the end she came out of that disaster the better of the two, by far, which despite always kind of knowing that, seeing Gilles allowed her to finally accept it.
It had good reason to lift his spirit - while Geoffrey accomplished more than his father from a political standpoint, there was always that condition - Foulques never wanted what Geoffrey wanted when it came to a kingdom. But here? Foulques would have loved to humiliate his nephew like this. That Geoffrey succeeded is perhaps the first thing he's done that he knows his father desired... and never was able to accomplish in that manner. It is a real victory for Geoffrey - a small victory that probably feels like one of his greatest.
In some ways, it is fitting and realistic. Few grand houses went out in a blaze of glory. Most slowly ebbed away in obscurity after losing most of their power. And so it was with the House de Poitou - done in by the offspring of the cast off sister to the Duke. And whether the Angevins escaped the curse... that is always up for interpretation. Yours is quite valid.
Hmmm... I think I would have had to leave him in the dungeons until I got that? Geoffrey isn't cruel, so I don't know the option would have come up. Had he been in Foulquesson's hands though...
With Agnes it was closure and acceptance - even if she knew she had done better for herself. Geoffrey... it's complicated. I think he wanted him dead but upon reflection, would be mostly satisfied with the outcome.
Such a great comment. Thanks!
As was the intent with the bookends. And in some ways, there was a corpse at the end - Agnes rather eviscerated in a way he is not accustomed to.
I did enjoy that Ermengarde/Agnes conversation and it was one of the big reasons I was glad you got me thinking on doing this chapter from her point of view. Originally I imagine this conversation with Geoffrey but it would never have worked as well just as brother and sisters who were never that close. While Agnes is old enough to be Ermengarde's mother (Beatrice *is* eight years older than her), the relationship can be closer and more open. It actually gave Agnes a chance to cut loose - in a way I restrain her - even with Essa there's some holding back because there's some level of distrust. With Ermengarde, who grew up under Agnes in a lot of ways? Much different.
Whereas the Geoffrey conversation is one that could be more emotional and raw, given their relationship. There were lines that still could not be crossed... but it was very much something that worked far better from her perspective. Geoffrey's selfishness has always been a flaw - but it's something that has always been worse with those he cares about. It's ironic in a way - but since he interacts with those he cares about the most, they are most immune to his placating. They've seen it before. They know what to expect.
And yes, his illness is sapping his skill to a degree. But I leave it open as to whether that's due to the illness itself ... or because his impending death has left him more selfish and self-absorbed. The stress of it all bringing out his worse qualities.
You are very right on Gilles having been the same as before. Very smug, arrogant and seemingly completely undeserving of such a high opinion of himself. (Though, in his own way, he has conquered more than any other Angevin, even besting his cousin - but as Foulquesson says, it is not lands that are his focus). The pair have aspired to so much more, interestingly in Agnes' case, perhaps in part because of her humiliation. I think Geoffrey sees a bit of foolishness of it at the end, though the enjoyment of having outdone his father remains.
Agnes... Agnes is complicated. It is very much seeing how far she has come versus how little he has... and in court, I think it bothers her. Very much of... I spent so much of my life waiting for this... and this is it? It does give her little fulfillment.
It is only after, when she realizes what could have been, that her mood lifts. A waste worrying about him, but a reminder it did not stop her from achieving so much more. And perhaps, a tacit admission from Gilles that she is something unique - so much so that she might have dragged him to greatness. As mentioned in the other responses, it is not so much that she didn't know that - it's that confronted with it in this circumstance, the point is driven home.
Again, love your analysis here! Thank you!
It was a most excellent answer.
That realization of Gilles ultimate fate certainly plays a role in Agnes' acceptance at the end. It also kind of serves toward a bookend to the events of at the start of the chapter - House Poitou fading away, most of its members forgotten. In some ways an impressive feat, given their own gifts to start.
And yes, you definitely did say something, and said it well! Why it never hurts to comment!
I agree, it is more for Agnes, but she was much more the aggrieved party.
It sure is a nice ransom, but it wasn't the reason I took it! It really was kinslayer that stopped me, even though Geoffrey could have taken the hit in retrospect. I was very, very, very tempted to kill him. But once I decided against that, the money was a nice alternative.
He's got the stats... let's hope he put them into intrigue???
At that point though, unless I were going hard into roleplaying, or doing some time of mass conquest I'd probably just try to get my ruler killed. Seems like it would be boring to simply rule - especially in CK2, where inheritance and dynasties is the crux of the game! (EU IV, ironically, probably is better suited for immortal rulers since if you get a good one, you'd just set it and forget it while you paint the map.)
Thanks! This was one of my favorite chapters I've written. It was something that was a long time coming... and felt like some payoff for a plotline introduced so, so long ago. I mean, it was back when Beatritz was still alive!
Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed Marguerite's POV. I'm sorry that I've kept you waiting on what's next though! Hopefully the wait will be at an end in the next few days.
Again, to all, thanks for your patience. I've written the vast majority of the next chapter, though I've still got to tie it together a little more neatly. I still have work stuff to do as well, but it shouldn't be as hectic as last week.
Your comments remain excellent, and I'm grateful for them. And for your patience in my response!
On to your comments!
I wonder if at some point Geoffrey will come to the defense of Ermengarde. Of all the things he can be he is devoted to his family. And Flanders would be nice piece of real estate to possess.
At first I was annoyed at Agnes but as I read on I feel she did the right thing. Killing Gillies was too easy and quick. While he tries to not show it I think being bested by Geoffrey will gnaw at Gillies and also the fact that Agnes became so much more without him than she would have if he married her.
Oh, I'd love a justification to steal more land. But there are more interesting targets that would serve Geoffrey's interest more. And I didn't have a good Casus Belli.
I was a little surprised by the desire to see Gilles killed by the comments here! And here I thought I was making Geoffrey all tyrannical - but you all understood his anger better than me! And yes, I think Agnes realized at the end she came out of that disaster the better of the two, by far, which despite always kind of knowing that, seeing Gilles allowed her to finally accept it.
Gilles' capture really lifted Geoffrey's spirit - but merely ransoming him will probably return the king to be preoccupied with his death. Still, one can understand Agnes, especially as that little discussion in private gave her the chance to finally close that chapter for good.
And so it ended, the house of Poitou. A long time coming, then it merely vanishes, mostly beyond notice of everybody else. The Breton's curse was powerful, but I wouldn't say that the Angevins escaped it. It manifests differently, strikes in form of disease lately. Who knows when or if it will truly end.
Castration would have been so satisfying for Gilles though. You could have achieved it by mutilating - Geoffrey could have come for his manhood. That would have been worth a reload if necessary .
It had good reason to lift his spirit - while Geoffrey accomplished more than his father from a political standpoint, there was always that condition - Foulques never wanted what Geoffrey wanted when it came to a kingdom. But here? Foulques would have loved to humiliate his nephew like this. That Geoffrey succeeded is perhaps the first thing he's done that he knows his father desired... and never was able to accomplish in that manner. It is a real victory for Geoffrey - a small victory that probably feels like one of his greatest.
In some ways, it is fitting and realistic. Few grand houses went out in a blaze of glory. Most slowly ebbed away in obscurity after losing most of their power. And so it was with the House de Poitou - done in by the offspring of the cast off sister to the Duke. And whether the Angevins escaped the curse... that is always up for interpretation. Yours is quite valid.
Hmmm... I think I would have had to leave him in the dungeons until I got that? Geoffrey isn't cruel, so I don't know the option would have come up. Had he been in Foulquesson's hands though...
Press F for the House of Poitou.
And it seems both Geoffrey and Agnes have buried the hatchet with their leching cousin, in their own seperate ways.
With Agnes it was closure and acceptance - even if she knew she had done better for herself. Geoffrey... it's complicated. I think he wanted him dead but upon reflection, would be mostly satisfied with the outcome.
We are (as sometimes happen in this AAR) with contrasting scenes in the dungeon which serve as bookends for this update. First a corpse, and finally a conversation. A conversation that did not happen and (in a fashion) led to the discovery of the corpse. There is something ... appropriate ... in all of that.
The highlight for me was the discussion between Agnes and her sister, and between her and Geoffrey after court. With Ermengarde there was quite a lot of humour - a nice lightening of the mood before the starker tones of what followed. I especially chuckled at this exchange:
The conversation with Geoffrey though, that was more of a deliberate dance, slow moving yet full of purpose. And, dare I say it, potentially lethal. I find it interesting that Geoffrey misread his sister so thoroughly, but then Agnes does diagnose the cause: he saw everything through the lens of his perspective. And that lens has become ever more tightly focused. In this was have yet another example of how he misreads the situation. It is, dare I say, becoming an increasingly frequent occurence. Almost as if his disease is sapping his faculties - or is it his power corrupting his perceptions - or some combination of the two.
If something were to happen to Agnes before he passes, he will - I think - take the loss very badly.
As for Gilles - there is a remarkably unsatisfactory air about the entire business. I have a tendency to think of it is something from the past, when Agnes (and Geoffrey) were so much smaller - lesser - as people. In the intervening decades they have both grown, and grown in so many ways their persons are now giantesque compared to their former selves. And yet in their imaginations this lickspittle from the past loomed large, but it turns out it was shadowplay. He has not grown, but remained the same imp-like soul (as a side note Ermengarde, of small appearance, is clearly great-souled). Now shorn of all illusions and in the glare of the court and gloom of the dungeon casting no shadow, Agnes, and Geoffrey when Agnes makes him see it, can see Gilles is a mote of dust compared to them. And it annoys that so much thought and energy has been spent on such a pathetic excuse for a Lord.
Such a great comment. Thanks!
As was the intent with the bookends. And in some ways, there was a corpse at the end - Agnes rather eviscerated in a way he is not accustomed to.
I did enjoy that Ermengarde/Agnes conversation and it was one of the big reasons I was glad you got me thinking on doing this chapter from her point of view. Originally I imagine this conversation with Geoffrey but it would never have worked as well just as brother and sisters who were never that close. While Agnes is old enough to be Ermengarde's mother (Beatrice *is* eight years older than her), the relationship can be closer and more open. It actually gave Agnes a chance to cut loose - in a way I restrain her - even with Essa there's some holding back because there's some level of distrust. With Ermengarde, who grew up under Agnes in a lot of ways? Much different.
Whereas the Geoffrey conversation is one that could be more emotional and raw, given their relationship. There were lines that still could not be crossed... but it was very much something that worked far better from her perspective. Geoffrey's selfishness has always been a flaw - but it's something that has always been worse with those he cares about. It's ironic in a way - but since he interacts with those he cares about the most, they are most immune to his placating. They've seen it before. They know what to expect.
And yes, his illness is sapping his skill to a degree. But I leave it open as to whether that's due to the illness itself ... or because his impending death has left him more selfish and self-absorbed. The stress of it all bringing out his worse qualities.
You are very right on Gilles having been the same as before. Very smug, arrogant and seemingly completely undeserving of such a high opinion of himself. (Though, in his own way, he has conquered more than any other Angevin, even besting his cousin - but as Foulquesson says, it is not lands that are his focus). The pair have aspired to so much more, interestingly in Agnes' case, perhaps in part because of her humiliation. I think Geoffrey sees a bit of foolishness of it at the end, though the enjoyment of having outdone his father remains.
Agnes... Agnes is complicated. It is very much seeing how far she has come versus how little he has... and in court, I think it bothers her. Very much of... I spent so much of my life waiting for this... and this is it? It does give her little fulfillment.
It is only after, when she realizes what could have been, that her mood lifts. A waste worrying about him, but a reminder it did not stop her from achieving so much more. And perhaps, a tacit admission from Gilles that she is something unique - so much so that she might have dragged him to greatness. As mentioned in the other responses, it is not so much that she didn't know that - it's that confronted with it in this circumstance, the point is driven home.
Again, love your analysis here! Thank you!
I was going to say something, but @stnylan said everything I was going to and more. Gilles is ultimately nothing, and he will be nothing. Aside from his truly charming personality, his tragedy is that he did not grow or change, even though he's had opportunities to do so. His life is meaningless, while Geoffrey's and Agnes' have meaning. They will be remembered, at least in some fashion. Gilles will be forgotten forever, a worse punishment than anything Geoffrey could do. (And would you look at that, I said I wasn't going to say anything and then I said something. Stnylan still said it better, though.)
It was a most excellent answer.
That realization of Gilles ultimate fate certainly plays a role in Agnes' acceptance at the end. It also kind of serves toward a bookend to the events of at the start of the chapter - House Poitou fading away, most of its members forgotten. In some ways an impressive feat, given their own gifts to start.
And yes, you definitely did say something, and said it well! Why it never hurts to comment!
Some theatrical catharsis there, perhaps for more than just Agnes, too. When she did spare him from death, I thought Geoffrey might have thrown him in Patricia’s old cell in the oubliette. But that is a pretty big ransom if it is forked out!
I agree, it is more for Agnes, but she was much more the aggrieved party.
It sure is a nice ransom, but it wasn't the reason I took it! It really was kinslayer that stopped me, even though Geoffrey could have taken the hit in retrospect. I was very, very, very tempted to kill him. But once I decided against that, the money was a nice alternative.
Well as Roman Emperor I took over the whole map with one guy and made a one culture and religion state with ridoculous wealth and stability. Even tech levels, little revolts, the place was pretty good and would probably be OP as hell comverted to EUIV.
However, a note on immortal rulers. It used to be the case, through abusing the character creator, to have a very long lived ruler with ridiculous vassal opinion due to long ruler bonus. However, this is no longer the case. After a certain point, you get the ruled too long negative boost to opinion. So eventually you'll have a stat god emperor but everyone wants to kill him. And immortality does not save you from assasiantion. So the game literally becomes about either keeping yourself alive by playing the poltical game even harder or trying to get an heir of yours immortal as well.
He's got the stats... let's hope he put them into intrigue???
At that point though, unless I were going hard into roleplaying, or doing some time of mass conquest I'd probably just try to get my ruler killed. Seems like it would be boring to simply rule - especially in CK2, where inheritance and dynasties is the crux of the game! (EU IV, ironically, probably is better suited for immortal rulers since if you get a good one, you'd just set it and forget it while you paint the map.)
a very touching chapter.... some wounds would never be healed
Thanks! This was one of my favorite chapters I've written. It was something that was a long time coming... and felt like some payoff for a plotline introduced so, so long ago. I mean, it was back when Beatritz was still alive!
Phew! Caught up on the last 4 chapters. It was great to get a chapter from Marguerite's POV. Still a great AAR and I eagerly look forward to seeing what comes next!
Thanks, and I'm glad you enjoyed Marguerite's POV. I'm sorry that I've kept you waiting on what's next though! Hopefully the wait will be at an end in the next few days.
Again, to all, thanks for your patience. I've written the vast majority of the next chapter, though I've still got to tie it together a little more neatly. I still have work stuff to do as well, but it shouldn't be as hectic as last week.
Your comments remain excellent, and I'm grateful for them. And for your patience in my response!
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