Thanks for your input, we'll have a look at this beef and see if we can slice it better. Especially the Pope's tolerant attitude towards heretics seems disturbing.
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Beef about religion.
- Thread starter King Dave
- Start date
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Just to say I'm playing on 2.3.6. So if you've made improvements since, there may no longer be a problem. Wouldn't want to put you to any trouble on account of me being a stick in the mud.
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do heresies appear by event or are they hardcoded to appear i.e. "it they're in the files they'll appear"?
An update on my predicament.
The Catholic Byzantines (Orthodox is all but dead) have set up an antipope. This has reduced Catholic moral authority to single figures, whilst Fraticelli is in the 50s. My new leader, who took over just before the recent troubles with King Ragambald is a scholarly theologian. So I'm now resoning that he's decided that God has abandoned Catholism in favour of Fraticelli and that the pragmatic thing to do is embrace the new ways. His father who was a Catholic zealot will be spinning in his grave, but hey, that guy was taking us to hell on the strength of his beliefs.
I'm now at peace with Ragambald. The third war over title revokation, like the two before it, ended in a white peace. Only thing I'm a bit pissed about is Ragambald's insistence that my heir be educated as a Lombard, Fraticelli. I'm now cool with the Fraticelli thing but were not becoming Lombards. We'll see how the land lies when I've completed the Norman invasion of England.
The Catholic Byzantines (Orthodox is all but dead) have set up an antipope. This has reduced Catholic moral authority to single figures, whilst Fraticelli is in the 50s. My new leader, who took over just before the recent troubles with King Ragambald is a scholarly theologian. So I'm now resoning that he's decided that God has abandoned Catholism in favour of Fraticelli and that the pragmatic thing to do is embrace the new ways. His father who was a Catholic zealot will be spinning in his grave, but hey, that guy was taking us to hell on the strength of his beliefs.
I'm now at peace with Ragambald. The third war over title revokation, like the two before it, ended in a white peace. Only thing I'm a bit pissed about is Ragambald's insistence that my heir be educated as a Lombard, Fraticelli. I'm now cool with the Fraticelli thing but were not becoming Lombards. We'll see how the land lies when I've completed the Norman invasion of England.
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I came close to doing something similar in one of my games, but I didn't want to be Lollard or Waldensian (I hate being a heresy that has no special mechanics). In your situation, it was the right answer.
If you were independent, backing an anti-pope and deposing the other Popes/anti-popes would have also restored the faith. With moral authority back to 50+, stomping out heresy isn't that hard.
Both of these two things seem to happen all too frequently. I think in 5 of my last 6 saves the Byzantines have ended up Catholic. This was especially annoying in my save before last as I was playing as an Orthodox King and it was making conversion of provinces a real pain in the arse.
Anti-Popes seem to be less frequent (I think) since the last patch, but the AI still seems to set them up for no good reason which is frustrating.
On a broader note, there's the problem which King Dave raises, whereby if you win a revocation war against your liege, he can then make exactly the same demands immediately afterwards, but if you say no, you're the aggressor. It's particularly irritating in the Islamic world, where revocation demands are quite common on account of the government type; I once fought a huge war for years as an Arabic Emir to keep hold of Jerusalem, finally forced the Caliph into a White Peace, only to have him immediately make the same demand a week later, branding me a truce-breaker when I said no and forcing my exhausted armies into a war I had no chance of winning.
It's a very unfair mechanic for vassals, both immersion-breaking and highly, highly frustrating.
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No, he didn't win. He only got a white peace. If he won, his liege would have abdicated and crown authority would have been reduced.
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Aside from some of the heresies existing in some starts, the most common way I know of heresies appearing is from a chaplain researching cultural technology. Otherwise, there are a few heresy events, but I think they're all generic - i.e. they draw a randomly chosen heresy from a list, not that there's some fun event chain making Cathars show up in K_Aquitaine in the 12th century. Though I mean, that would be cool, especially if there's a merchant republic present both in your ports and in Thrace,,,but that's another topic entirely.
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In my view, the heresies represent a set of beliefs. Now, in OTL, the "Fraticelli" set of beliefs was first documented in the Franciscan Order in 1278 but that doesn't mean those specific people or that specific date are essential to the nature of the heresy. I'm not sure if this is what Talq is saying precisely, but my view is that they are the historical heresies in terms of what they believe but not in terms of who believes them. Otherwise you get into a very deep rabbit hole of how much each religion is dependent on those who first espoused it.
take the intrigue focus, then kidnap this evil heretic king, and force him to accept demands and lower crown authority
You have a point. One group of people believe the church should embrace poverty, whilst another think the church should be comfortable with wealth. This was the case with the Fraticelli and the Catholics. We don't have to use those lables but it makes it easier for game purposes. It's beliefs we're considering and those beliefs could have been in exsitence before history gives us evidence of them.
All that said, I still think the Pope is too tolerant of herecies and allows them to take root too easily. He is suposed to be defender of the faith and should be more proactive. If Catholism had been threatened by herecies earlier, then it is feasible that we may have seen crusades to parts of Europe before the historical crusades to the Middle East.
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I think the main problem with this situation is that his liege is demanding his titles even though they have a truce. Going for a white peace or even winning the war will accomplish nothing since he will just get a new demand a week after this
Religion, well Catholicism and the Pope, would benefit from an overall - and a great excuse for a DLC!
At time in the period the pope had an huge authority, including over any catholic liege. Suggestion of some things to consider: only a pope could crown an emperor; the pope's blessing was sought for kingship succession; papal supremacy; the investiture controversy; archbishops; more fleshed out conflict between pope (& his appointed archbishop) and liege; monasteries (take something from the new estates in EU4?); tithes and tax conflicts; corruption - indulgences & simony; later game heretics and dissenters & loss of church powers (?); more fleshed out sects and heresies.
In the short term to help out OP problem with loss of religious authority also look at model and effect of antipopes more - it happens too often and too early, and the conflict between powerful king and pope could be better worked out.
As usual (IMO) the early Charile start poses a problem as some of the church power probably derived from the Pope agreeing to crown Charlie emperor and thus gain alliance and concessions (and not get taken over by the Lombards).
No idea about the other religions, don't imagine there would be any comparison really. The eastern church deferred to and was effectively controlled by the (real) emperor; Islam was still young and the caliph and Arabian ruler were one and the same.
At time in the period the pope had an huge authority, including over any catholic liege. Suggestion of some things to consider: only a pope could crown an emperor; the pope's blessing was sought for kingship succession; papal supremacy; the investiture controversy; archbishops; more fleshed out conflict between pope (& his appointed archbishop) and liege; monasteries (take something from the new estates in EU4?); tithes and tax conflicts; corruption - indulgences & simony; later game heretics and dissenters & loss of church powers (?); more fleshed out sects and heresies.
In the short term to help out OP problem with loss of religious authority also look at model and effect of antipopes more - it happens too often and too early, and the conflict between powerful king and pope could be better worked out.
As usual (IMO) the early Charile start poses a problem as some of the church power probably derived from the Pope agreeing to crown Charlie emperor and thus gain alliance and concessions (and not get taken over by the Lombards).
No idea about the other religions, don't imagine there would be any comparison really. The eastern church deferred to and was effectively controlled by the (real) emperor; Islam was still young and the caliph and Arabian ruler were one and the same.
Are you sure this is historically accurate? There were not a lot of crusades against heretics and they were not called without years of preaching campaigns, threats and stuff like that. What you suggest is similar to excommunicating immediately every ruler who adopted free investiture.
There also weren't a lot of actual kings who converted to heresies; not within the game's time frame at least. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Pope to promote action against heretics up to and including crusades if such a thing were to happen. Possibly another issue is that there is no real middle ground in the game between "tolerance" (of a sort, at least) and outright crusade.
Isn't the problem that Crusades simply weren't online yet? The knigdoms that comprise France, except for Brittany, are tied for second-highest weight as a Crusade target, behind only Kingdom of Italy, if the wiki is up-to-date in this.
Any heresy can randomly appear at any time (the lower the moral authority of the religion, the higher the chance of a heresy popping up). The game doesn't really care about any real life historic factors when dealing with heresies, and they're all treated the same way.
Only exceptions are the "Old Paganism", e.g. "Old Slavic", "Old Zunist" heresies. These will only appear once the pagan religion they belong to have been reformed.
A religion based update or DLC sounds great but we kinda already have a mini DLC on religion, Sons of Abraham. And I think it's too late to expand on that DLC now. What needs to happen is the requests be taken into consideration in the next patch or DLC. With Paradox reply it shows that they've got something up their sleeve with this.