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Gaizokubanou

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What are some of major chain of events that you guys would like to be more closely with actual history? Obviously no one here is asking for 100% since that wouldn't be a game, and I'm also pretty sure that USA joining Allies in 1939 all the time bugs people out more than Iraq's massive spy spy attack.

I guess my priorities would be (they are not in any order of importance)

Historically core faction members at least trying to stay on their historical path in terms of their loyalty.

Major theathres playing roughly similar with historical progress. Like Japan will bog down in China half of the games, instead of getting wiped out or wipe china off the map.

Even at 50% likelihood of historical outcome, I think the game pace should be "suprising" enough for a good, fun game, so I would be all for overall development of events to loosely follow history.
 

unmerged(168102)

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"Or, here's another one: Hitler had at least 1 major (though I'm sure there were many more behind the scenes) assassination attempt at him. If any of these had succeeded, and the still-facist-but-under-new-leadership Germany decided that, rather than blaming who they did for world events, they went whole-hog after Communism instead, and their war went straight to the USSR rather than the "friendlier" countries first... USA (given how the populace of then viewed communism) may have actually backed them "indirectly" in the fight (lend-leasing assets to Germany to fight USSR rather than to UK to fight Germany). The leadership of the USSR at this time wasn't known for level-headedness, and as Pearl Harbor showed, one big attack was all it took."

"The first resolute attempt to remove Hitler during this period was led by Oster from the Abwehr, but no shot was fired. In November 1939, however, Georg Elser, a carpenter from Württemberg, acting completely on his own, developed a plan to assassinate Hitler. Elser had been peripherally involved with the KPD before 1933, but his exact motives for acting as he did remain a mystery. He read in the newspapers that Hitler would be addressing a Nazi Party meeting on 8 November, in the Bürgerbräukeller, a beer hall in Munich where Hitler had launched the Beer Hall Putsch on the same date in 1923. Stealing explosives from his workplace, Elser built a powerful time-bomb. For over a month, he managed to stay inside the Bürgerbräukeller after closing hours each night, during which time he hollowed out the pillar behind the speaker's rostrum to place the bomb inside.

On the night of 7 November, Elser set the timer and left for the Swiss border. Unexpectedly, because of the pressure of wartime business, Hitler made a much shorter speech than usual and left the hall 13 minutes before the bomb went off, killing eight people. Had Hitler still been speaking, the bomb almost certainly would have killed him, with consequences which can only be guessed. Elser was arrested at the border, sent to the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, and then in 1945 moved to the Dachau concentration camp. Elser was executed two weeks before the liberation of Dachau KZ. "This attempt on Hitler’s life set off a witch-hunt for potential conspirators which intimidated the opposition and made further action more difficult."


"In late 1942 Tresckow and Olbricht formulated a plan to assassinate Hitler and stage a coup. On 13 March 1943, returning from his easternmost headquarters FHQ Wehrwolf near Vinnitsa to Wolfschanze in East Prussia, Hitler was scheduled to make a stop-over at the headquarters of Army Group Centre at Smolensk. For such an occasion, Tresckow had prepared three options: [2]

Major Georg von Boeselager, in command of a cavalry honor guard, could intercept Hitler in a forest and overwhelm the SS bodyguard and the Führer in a fair fight; this course was rejected because of the prospect of a large numbers of German soldiers fighting each other, and a possible failure regarding the unexpected strength of the escort.
A joint assassination could be carried out during dinner; this idea was abandoned as supporting officers abhorred the idea of shooting the unarmed tyrant.

Finally, as a last resort, a bomb could be smuggled on Hitler's plane.
Tresckow asked Lieutenant Colonel Heinz Brandt, on Hitler's staff and usually on the same plane that carried Hitler, to take a parcel with him, supposedly the price of a bet won by Tresckow's friend General Stieff. It concealed a bomb, disguised in a box for two bottles of cognac. Tresckow's aide, Lieutenant Fabian von Schlabrendorff, set the fuse and handed over the parcel to Brandt who boarded the same plane as Hitler.[3]

It was expected that Hitler’s Focke-Wulf 200 Condor should explode about 30 minutes later near Minsk, close enough to the front to be attributed to Soviet fighters. Olbricht was to use the resulting crisis to mobilise his Reserve Army network to seize power in Berlin, Vienna, Munich and in the German Wehrkreis centres. It was an ambitious but credible plan, and might have worked if Hitler had indeed been killed, although persuading Army units to fight and overcome what could certainly have been fierce resistance from the SS could have been a major obstacle.

But, as with Elser’s bomb in 1939 and all other attempts, luck favoured Hitler again, which was attributed to "Vorsehung" (providence). The British-made chemical pencil detonator on the bomb had been tested many times and was considered reliable. It went off, but the bomb did not. The Percussion cap apparently became too cold as the parcel was carried in the unheated cargo hold.

Displaying great sangfroid, Schlabrendorff took the next plane to retrieve the package from Colonel Brandt before the content was discovered. The blocks of plastic explosives were later used by Gersdorff and Stauffenberg."

"On March 20, 1943, Colonel Rudolf von Gertsdorff, General Kluge's chief of intelligence, tried to kill Hitler in the Zeughaus. The concealed bomb was to be detonated by acid while he stood close to Hitler in the exhibit hall. Unfortunately Hitler left the building before the acid could act and Gertsdorff immediately entered the men's room and flushed the fuse down the toilet."

"Johann Georg Elser, born January 4, 1903, had served an apprenticeship as cabinetmaker (Schreiner) and from 1929 to 1932 worked in Switzerland at this trade then returned to Germany to assist in his fathers lumberyard. He bitterly resented the Nazi stranglehold on labour unions and the growing restrictions on religious freedom. He then decided to kill Hitler by placing a time bomb in one of the columns behind the podium where Hitler was to give a speech in the Burgerbrau Beer Cellar in Munich. The bomb was set to detonate at preciesly 9.20pm on Wednesday, November 8, 1939. At 8.10 Hitler enters the beer hall but at 9.12pm he suddenly ends his speech and departs. Eight minutes later the bomb explodes killing eight people and wounding sixty-five including Eva Braun's father. Seven of those killed were Nazi Party members. Elser, who, since 1933, refused to give the nazi salute, is later arrested as he tried to cross the border into Switzerland at Konstanz. He was held for questioning due to the 'strange content' of his belongings. He was transported to Sachsenhausen concentration camp, and later confined in the concentration camp at Dachau. On the 9th Of April, 1945, two weeks before the war ended in Europe, Johann Elser was executed by the SS. In the city of Bremen a street was named in his honour, Georg-Elser Weg. In Berlin a memorial has been erected and a plaque to his memory is sited in his hometown, Koenigsbronn. (In September, 1979, the Burgerbraukeller was demolished. On its site now stands the Munich City Hilton Hotel."

" In February, 1944, Infantry Captain Axel von dem Bussche agrees to blow up Hitler and himself while he demonstrates a new army winter overcoat to the German leader. Hitler moved too fast through the crowd. '

"Another attempt was made at Berghof On March 11, 1944, Cavalry Captain Eberhard von Breitenbuch attended a conference at Hitler’s villa the ‘Berghof’ on the Obersalzberg. Concealed on his person was a small Browning pistol "he Planned to shoot Hitler in the Head" with which he intended to shoot his Führer and at the same time was willing to sacrifice his own life in the attempt. He felt that the war was now at such a stage that the complete destruction of Germany was inevitable and that Hitler had to be stopped. Breitenbuch enters the conference room behind Field Marshal Ernst Busch, who suspects nothing, but as he approaches the door he is stopped by the Duty Sergeant who explains "Sorry, no adjutants beyond this point, Führers orders". So yet another attempt fails"

"Stauffenberg’s second attempt occurs at Hitler’s Wolf’s Lair headquarters in East Prussia. On July 15, 1944, he attends a Fuhrers briefing and observes with dismay that Himmler is again absent. The attempt was once again aborted."


It was the Valkyrie plot with Colonel Von Straussenburg. The most reknown plot July 20 1944 at the Wolf's Layer. The problem was with that bombing (which it is really very improbable that Hitler actually survived it and boggles the mind how he did) was that they woudlnt' have gotten Himmler or Goring who likely would have been able to hold Germany together through sheer strength of will and the power of the SS. They were trying to get them all together. Just didn't work out. The bomb was actually moved by one of the other officers away from Hitler slightly which saved his life probably. The original idea was they figured that the Wolf's layer heavy concrete would have caused a resulting contained explosion that would have annihilated everyone but it was hot that day and Hitler held his meeting in his summer abode above ground.

After Hitler was thought dead the Valkyrie reserve army in Berlin was mobilized and issued orders of the Furhrers death and that the SS were trying to take control of Berlin. They arrested all SS and Gestapo units in Berlin and the idea was that they would then have control of the entire armed force since Berlin was the central command area. Precious time was wasted as the other conspirators waited to hear a confirmation of Hitlers death and thus not all SS and Gestapo were arrested in time and finally a message that Hitler was not dead was received and the Valkyrie Reserve army was ordered to stand down and the conspirators were rounded up by General Fromm who trying to cover his ass as he had knowledge of the plot went against Hitlers direct orders to take them alive and ordered the 5 men executed by firing squad and given full military honors burial. He betrayed the resistance group. Fromm was executed later on. Over the next several months a purge was conducted by the Gestapo and SS of anyone remotely involved in the operation. One General Rommel was accorded the honor of being allowed to kill himself and was given full honors and pension.

There was a lesser known allied plans to assasinate hitler with a sniper squad, poison, and I believe a bomb but it ultimately was abandoned as the Allies realized that Hitler was a terrible military leader and that his successor might be a capable leader who would cause the war to be delayed longer so it was abandoned.

There was one more attempt on Hitlers life that didn't go through I couldnt' find an article readily but in 42 or 43 Hitler made a trip to the Russian front to inspire the troops the General in charge there was going to have his loyal troops shoot Hitler while he was eating in their mess hall. But at the last second the General got cold feet and did not go through with the operation. This by far was the most vulnerable Hitler would be and would have definitely been successful had the order been given but it was not.
George Duncans assasination Attempts on Hitler
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/assassination_attempts.html
Sited WIkipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance
 

unmerged(168102)

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But also any plan to kill Hitler really had to include killing Himmler and Goring. If they were still alive then as I stated it's very likely they could have held the regime together through strength of the SS and Gestapo.
 

Bolkonskij

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Way to go, Tanaka. I second all your thoughts, I feel exactly the same and couldn't write it any better. Thanks.
 

themousemaster

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After posting a few times earlie on I’ve been following this topic from a distance.

A few people here have come here and typed more or less what I would have typed. As such didn’t feel the “need” to post anything…

I will start by remembering one little part of one of my posts…



People who love this sandbox game, don’t mind (don’t see anything wrong) for instances with a 30’s/40’s Social Democratic country “teaming-up” with a Nazi one, have to notice one thing:
  • Please, of 100 games, can I have 1 historic game? Just 1, you sandbox gamers can have the other 99…

I have yet to see anyone coming here from a 36/38 campaign showing a single historic first 6 months of war. So, please look into your save games, and look for that single game that would make a weirdo like me happy ;)

(btw, please lets all be intelligent here, obviously I’m not talking about when the player himself changes/interacts and imposes the game “pace”… but even then, :rofl:, USA will be in the Axis or Allies by 39… there is a small, small chance it won’t be in any, but unlikely)



One last thing, a few posts back, the usual uniformed minds jumped into the topic and typed about this wasn’t a “historical simulation”… if it was “Germany would lose every time” and that wouldn't be “fun” “Just go see a movie” ! That kind of argument... :wacko:

I’ve been playing war games of all kinds for more than 20 years; most against other non-AI players…

In many good war games “winning” is all about “who does better than historically was done”… not, “the last man standing wins”. Grand strategy is all about real options, doing the best with what you have, that’s the real fun to me… Playing Axis in good, solid WW2 games is all about having the advantage of the initiative… playing Allies is all about having the resources, prioritizing their aplication by answering efficiently to Axis initiatives (after all, the Allies back then didn’t went around invading countries as preemptive measure… yes, please, talk about the all French North Africa “dance”) and knowing in the end you will very likely overwhelm the Axis. The all question is when… 46? Axis victory… 44? Axis defeat...After that, now the Allies want to try the Soviets, this is a game try it... ;)

There is no interest in a person like me of what would happen if Finland did a preemptive strike in Scotland even though it had the big Soviet empire right on its border…​

The above is not intended for anyone to “enjoy” war games the way I do… we are all different, different ages, different knowledge (mostly we don’t want what we don’t know) and as such enjoy things in a different way.

I’m just typing the above so the “other” kind of players sees the root of the problem… All I’m asking is a 1 in 100 controllable option of having a sort of historical game… not the 100% non historical game we have now ;)

That oen person would, then, be me.

I was playing the USA; me entering the allies in 1939, therefore, wasn't bogus AI, but my own choice. And Australia went to the Axis, but that wasn't until late 1942, and also because with me already mobilized, I can see why Japan didn't want to go bombing Pearl Harbor.


But as far as Europe was concerned, the war started in 1939, Germany flattened Poland, tore through Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxemborg, Austria was Anschlussed, Checzhekslovakia split and 1/2 joined, France done got blowed up, Italy ran Ethiopia over and then smacked Greece around, and it's (few) units in Africa started running roughshod until UK met them.

Germany then loaded up it's forces on the Russian Border.

From here, it went a little wonky, because me as an ally started doing various small landings in France to cut off German troops, eliminate them, and then retreat off Europe, repeating until I felt I had a force comparable enough to beat them... which I did around early 1942, though for 6 months before that, Germany actually did go to war with USSR, and was pushing them all kinds of East before spontaneously giving up with me 20 miles from Berlin.
 

telesien

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I was playing the USA; me entering the allies in 1939, therefore, wasn't bogus AI, but my own choice.

And that sir, is what I see as problem here. I don't know what actions you took to join the war so early, but IRL the american public was strongly against it and the 1940 elections were won by FDR because he promised not to go to war. I strongly feel that this game makes such moves to easy. Just because you lead your country for 3 years, you can't change traditional "ideas" so easily. That is why I don't approve any realistic possibility for USA to enter war without HUGE dissent hit before they are actualy attacked first. And the same surely applies to Switzerland in allies/axis/comintern and similar other results.
 

plasticpanzers

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Part of the problem is that players act as a type of "god" running their country. Even
the emperor of Japan and Hitler did not conduct their government with the exactitude
of how we can run this game. Just because you "want" to do something the real world of
burocracy (didnt spell that right i know) which is more massive the bigger the government
really would restrict alot of what we do as "leaders" of countries.
 

themousemaster

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And that sir, is what I see as problem here. I don't know what actions you took to join the war so early, but IRL the american public was strongly against it and the 1940 elections were won by FDR because he promised not to go to war. I strongly feel that this game makes such moves to easy. Just because you lead your country for 3 years, you can't change traditional "ideas" so easily. That is why I don't approve any realistic possibility for USA to enter war without HUGE dissent hit before they are actualy attacked first. And the same surely applies to Switzerland in allies/axis/comintern and similar other results.

I was responding to Tanaka's "has anyone seen a historically accurate first 6 months of the war" question, not a "should the USA be able to adjust influence in a way to get them int he war earlier" question. That's something else entirely ;p.



Though, to answer YOUR question, I used the "align myself to faction", and was concurrently being "diplomatically influenced" by UK, France (till it's collapse), and... one other Allied country, whose name eludes me.

I suppose it should also be of note that the 1940 election did NOT go historically in my game, though my early involvement to the war (and the ever-so-slight shift in party support) probably had to do with that. Though again, that didn't change the first 6 months of the war any.
 

TheLoneGunman

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I was responding to Tanaka's "has anyone seen a historically accurate first 6 months of the war" question, not a "should the USA be able to adjust influence in a way to get them int he war earlier" question. That's something else entirely ;p.



Though, to answer YOUR question, I used the "align myself to faction", and was concurrently being "diplomatically influenced" by UK, France (till it's collapse), and... one other Allied country, whose name eludes me.

I suppose it should also be of note that the 1940 election did NOT go historically in my game, though my early involvement to the war (and the ever-so-slight shift in party support) probably had to do with that. Though again, that didn't change the first 6 months of the war any.

Speaking of which, wouldn't it be awesome if you were the US, you enter the war early against the wishes of the people, and then the next election comes, your party gets voted out and you're forced out of the war because the other candidate promised to end the war?

Maybe for HOI4. I can't see HOI3 being able to pull it off. :(
 

telesien

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I was responding to Tanaka's "has anyone seen a historically accurate first 6 months of the war" question, not a "should the USA be able to adjust influence in a way to get them int he war earlier" question. That's something else entirely ;p.



Though, to answer YOUR question, I used the "align myself to faction", and was concurrently being "diplomatically influenced" by UK, France (till it's collapse), and... one other Allied country, whose name eludes me.

I suppose it should also be of note that the 1940 election did NOT go historically in my game, though my early involvement to the war (and the ever-so-slight shift in party support) probably had to do with that. Though again, that didn't change the first 6 months of the war any.

I know what you ment. It is just that every game seems to be historical just by chance and not by logic :)

Historical outcome of elections is not that important, but in this case it (again by chance) proved, that americans didn't want to fight in Europe :)


Speaking of which, wouldn't it be awesome if you were the US, you enter the war early against the wishes of the people, and then the next election comes, your party gets voted out and you're forced out of the war because the other candidate promised to end the war?

Maybe for HOI4. I can't see HOI3 being able to pull it off. :(

And that is exactly how the game should have been made in the first place. Playing democratic countries should be fundamentaly different than autocratic ones. Current HoI3 simulates political decisions in the same manner as MTW2 simulated feudal society. It can be fun when you not care about history or logic.
 

themousemaster

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Speaking of which, wouldn't it be awesome if you were the US, you enter the war early against the wishes of the people, and then the next election comes, your party gets voted out and you're forced out of the war because the other candidate promised to end the war?

Maybe for HOI4. I can't see HOI3 being able to pull it off. :(

It would certainly be... interesting, but not sure about "awesome". I've already seen what happens if I have most of my standing army suddenly in "foreign lands". Ask the current administration how easy it is to actually get "out of" a war, anyway ;p.
 

TheLoneGunman

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It would certainly be... interesting, but not sure about "awesome". I've already seen what happens if I have most of my standing army suddenly in "foreign lands". Ask the current administration how easy it is to actually get "out of" a war, anyway ;p.

Well ask the Tsar what happens when you don't get out of an unpopular World War... :D
 

themousemaster

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Well ask the Tsar what happens when you don't get out of an unpopular World War... :D

I doubt the Tsar was in a bureaucratic democracy... here's the thing: Democracies getting into war AND out of war seems to be WAY more difficult that popular media believes ;p
 

TheLoneGunman

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I doubt the Tsar was in a bureaucratic democracy... here's the thing: Democracies getting into war AND out of war seems to be WAY more difficult that popular media believes ;p

It's not difficult, they just don't have all of the facts prior to getting elected.

Since you're obviously referencing Obama (we should take this to PM or OT if we continue any further so as not to derail the thread), it's true that he ran on a platform that advocated withdrawing from Iraq and fighting only in Afghanistan.

Yet, we ended up having some major success in Iraq just prior to him being made president, and ran into major setbacks in Afghanistan.

He was under pressure to pull out of both, and I can only assume his generals sat him down and told him, "These are the bad things that will happen if you fulfill your promises to your supporters."

That, or in the tradition of all politicians, he simply talked out of his rear-end to get elected.
 

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I honestly have to say that assasination's should be added to the Intelligence area. It makes perfect sense honestly. I would say that the actual supreme leader of the country would not be able to be assasinated but his cabinet members whom have replacements could be targets. That would and should be in the game.
 

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I honestly have to say that assasination's should be added to the Intelligence area. It makes perfect sense honestly. I would say that the actual supreme leader of the country would not be able to be assasinated but his cabinet members whom have replacements could be targets. That would and should be in the game.

As long as you give a nice ideological shift to a country if the real assassin is discovered and caught.

Would make it a very high risk for potentially high reward. :)