Beating a Crusade is seriously underwhelming

[DB42]

I don't expect anything to change, maybe for CK3. If you're part of a winning crusade you get traits, cool events, DUMB amounts of money, holy relics, LAND, uh am I forgetting something? If you singlehandedly embarrass the combined might of Europe you get... 1K gold and depleted levies. I paid a lot more than 1K gold in upkeep for my retinues and soldiers.

As a Qarmatian (iron century bad boy) I had no allies and no holy orders. Just me and the boiz of my Empire.

Just wanted to vent, because that crusade took so damn long to defeat and gave so little. If it was at least FUN I could overlook all of this but it's just directing your stacks back and forth as the AI suicides on you. In stark contrast; when you're part of a crusade it's usually over a week after you get there.

OK, done venting. Wew! Wish you'd at least get Mujahid trait

 

[DB42]

Also a quick question I don't want to make a new thread for; are revolts more likely during war? Didn't find anything on the wiki to indicate that but it happens like clockwork every war I'm in. Do AI vassals do something during wars to increase it maybe?

 

[Serenity84]

Revolts can be triggered when the vassals have more troops than you. That usually happens when you incur losses during war

 

[DB42]

Revolts can be triggered when the vassals have more troops than you. That usually happens when you incur losses during war

Ah, no, not rebellions just revolts. It's almost always less than a month into a war, before any armies have even clashed.

 

[mrinku]

You left out the 30 year +10% moral authority to your religion and -10% to their religion. That's fairly important for a minority religion, not so much for a majority one.

As far as revolts go... quite possibly if the crusaders and your revolting subjects are the same religion (which is often the trigger for a crusade).

But look at it this way - those generous crusade rewards haven't been handed out by a defeated opponent as part of a peace deal, as in a normal war - they've been looted directly from the target. By surviving, you keep your lands, your artifacts and your money that would otherwise go to the invaders.

 

[jonjowett]

This is why I tributise the Pope at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Tryvenyal]

In your case, you are the religious head right? Who else would you like to pay you?

But I agree, Fighting a defensive GHW/invasion not targeting you is very unrevarding.

 

[Thrake]

In your case, you are the religious head right? Who else would you like to pay you?

But I agree, Fighting a defensive GHW/invasion not targeting you is very unrevarding.

Well... If it's not targetting me then I'm defending co-religionists, which usually help me back to defend from holy wars/crusades targetting me and might be the only pool of foreign nobles to marry in while strenghtening MA. I don't join all defensive holy wars/crusade, but it's something I regularly do. It should probably earn a favour from whoever I help defending but that's all I would really need to be totally sold or care for big religions like Christians.

 

[DB42]

In your case, you are the religious head right? Who else would you like to pay you?

But I agree, Fighting a defensive GHW/invasion not targeting you is very unrevarding.

I am the Qarmatian caliph, yes. Even if it is targeting you it's pretty unrewarding. Egypt is mine. If you got more warscore in general it wouldn't be so bad. They get tons for conquering some fringe county in the deserts of Africa that I have to immediately defend (actually almost lost to that) but I shit you not when I say I defeated at least 10 stacks of over 10K troops and got next to nothing. Just feels like crusades are supposed to win which makes playing Muslim feel like a joke. Do you know any secret tactics for warscore? Will sieging down Rome give me a bunch? Because sieging down holdings of a crusade participant (Italy in Africa) gave 0.

 

[Mister Dellamorte]

You decided to play as one of the religion with the less practitioner in the world, what did you expect? Qarmatians got a lot of strong features, seem fair to me that you got some big weaknesses somewhere else. You got to remember too that the strongest feature of the Catholic religion is their crusades.

 

[DmUa]

You decided to play as one of the religion with the less practitioner in the world, what did you expect? Qarmatians got a lot of strong features, seem fair to me that you got some big weaknesses somewhere else. You got to remember too that the strongest feature of the Catholic religion is their crusades.

- Its weird for you to spell "broken" that way. Catholicism is all around poster boy of the game along with Norse, they are the most feature heavy religions. When people play games they expect games not be disbalanced mess, OP is absolutelly right, game gives to much rewards for new HF crusades and to little for defenders. This have nothing to do with Quarmatian being minority religion as Sunni or Shia would suffer the same way.

 

[Mister Dellamorte]

- Its weird for you to spell "broken" that way. Catholicism is all around poster boy of the game along with Norse, they are the most feature heavy religions. When people play games they expect games not be disbalanced mess, OP is absolutelly right, game gives to much rewards for new HF crusades and to little for defenders. This have nothing to do with Quarmatian being minority religion as Sunni or Shia would suffer the same way.

What I was trying to say, is that when you choose to play as one of those minor religion who will get holy war all the time, it's because you want to. Either for the flavor, the different mechanics or the difficulty. I don't see why you need big rewards for winning defensive holy war, even more when you are strong enough to win it by yourself. What else do you have to do except getting stronger and stronger? The game can already become quite boring when you're big enough. As said by mrinku, you need to considered the moral authority too. I agree that Catholics may get a bit too much rewards for winning a crusade, but the reward for winning defensive holy wars are fine.

Edit : And I hope I don't sound too harsh, English isn't my mother tongue.

 

[mrinku]

If this is comparing Catholic/Fraticelli Crusade win rewards vs Jihad win rewards vs other GHW win rewards for the *attacker*… well every one of those gets a Kingdom level title for the highest rating participant, as well as an appropriate trait as a participation trophy (Crusader, Mujahid etc). Defenders just do not get these, even Catholic ones.

Aside from the specific Christian relic events (very specific to particular counties and not guaranteed to trigger) and the Crusade Beneficiary thing (which adds no reward, just helps set up a dynasty member as winner and not yourself), there's really not that much different between 3.0 Crusades and other GHWs.

 

[DmUa]

What I was trying to say, is that when you choose to play as one of those minor religion who will get holy war all the time, it's because you want to.

- this have nothing with OP complains thou, doesnt it?

I don't see why you need big rewards for winning defensive holy war, even more when you are strong enough to win it by yourself.

- people expect to be rewarded for certain accomplishments. Catholic crusades provides gigantic rewards for practically nothing. While beating crusaders back gives practically nothing. People had talking about that since HF release.

The game can already become quite boring when you're big enough. As said by mrinku, you need to considered the moral authority too.

- this is a very "meh" reward. Im currently playing as jewish africans and my moral authority dont fall lower than 70-80 because im constantly in the state of war even thou my "normal" autority would be 30.

If this is comparing Catholic/Fraticelli Crusade win rewards vs Jihad win rewards vs other GHW win rewards for the *attacker*… well every one of those gets a Kingdom level title for the highest rating participant, as well as an appropriate trait as a participation trophy (Crusader, Mujahid etc). Defenders just do not get these, even Catholic ones.

- GHW's/Jihads are nowhere near strong as Catholic crusades.

Aside from the specific Christian relic events (very specific to particular counties and not guaranteed to trigger) and the Crusade Beneficiary thing (which adds no reward, just helps set up a dynasty member as winner and not yourself), there's really not that much different between 3.0 Crusades and other GHWs.

- the amount of rewards for crusade "winner" is just ridiculous.

 

[mrinku]

- GHW's/Jihads are nowhere near strong as Catholic crusades.

- the amount of rewards for crusade "winner" is just ridiculous.

The main strength of any GHW is the power of the participants. Catholics get their advantage in the extra holy orders, but those only go so far. Ability to launch a GHW is based on pledged troops, not Holy Order strength, so you still need enough secular troops.

What does a Catholic crusade winner get that any other GHW winner does not get that you find ridiculous? Nominated crusade beneficiary? Outside chance of finding the holy grail from a Crusade that heads to that specific region?

 

[Antiphates]

I don't really think there's a need for adjustments. You've been invaded, your reward for winning is getting to keep that kingdom. You don't necessarily need to profit from defeating an invasion, the money is just there for gameplay reasons, for a defender to want to press a victory rather than settle for a white peace.

 

[DB42]

I need to clarify that it's more so about the discrepancy of how quick a crusade is to win, vs how looooooong you have to defend. Offenders get a quick war with lots of rewards and defenders (if they aim to win) get a loooooooong war with some consolation prizes.

For me to be satisfied defender would either need to get more warscore somehow or more rewards. I mean crusaders brought relics with them on occasion and such it doesn't seem like a stretch thematically. Some events for Muslims the way Christians get them would be cool too.

Also 1K gold makes you want to press for victory when you've paid at least 5 times that in upkeep? Can you even white peace vs a crusade? If so that's great news to me.

 

[GundamMerc]

The main strength of any GHW is the power of the participants. Catholics get their advantage in the extra holy orders, but those only go so far. Ability to launch a GHW is based on pledged troops, not Holy Order strength, so you still need enough secular troops.

What does a Catholic crusade winner get that any other GHW winner does not get that you find ridiculous? Nominated crusade beneficiary? Outside chance of finding the holy grail from a Crusade that heads to that specific region?

You've evidently never seen how powerful said Holy Orders get.

 

[mrinku]

You've evidently never seen how powerful said Holy Orders get.

That's mostly when they get actual lands and become temporal powers. All Holy order have that trick.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Well... If it's not targetting me then I'm defending co-religionists, which usually help me back to defend from holy wars/crusades targetting me and might be the only pool of foreign nobles to marry in while strenghtening MA. I don't join all defensive holy wars/crusade, but it's something I regularly do. It should probably earn a favour from whoever I help defending but that's all I would really need to be totally sold or care for big religions like Christians.

Fully agree! If you join a defensive GHW/Crusade/Jihad without beeing a full-fledged Allied to to the target(IE get a Call To Arms), you should gain a favor if your participation is above 10% and you are the top non-allied participant - makes perfect sence!

I am the Qarmatian caliph, yes. Even if it is targeting you it's pretty unrewarding. Egypt is mine. If you got more warscore in general it wouldn't be so bad. They get tons for conquering some fringe county in the deserts of Africa that I have to immediately defend (actually almost lost to that) but I shit you not when I say I defeated at least 10 stacks of over 10K troops and got next to nothing. Just feels like crusades are supposed to win which makes playing Muslim feel like a joke. Do you know any secret tactics for warscore? Will sieging down Rome give me a bunch? Because sieging down holdings of a crusade participant (Italy in Africa) gave 0.

Secret to warscore againt Catholic crusades? Before HF at least you could siege papal holdings for 100%, no matter how many joiners. Don't know if that glitch is valid any longer though.
Beside that, I agree it´s very unrewarding to defend against a GHW. Low scores for winning battle, long grace before warscore starts ticking. Yep.. The GHW CB is very much in favor to the aggressor(At least before HF the CB was the same for Christians and Muslims though, so was not better to be targeted by a Jihad ).