Battleships vs Corvettes

[apoc527]

Wasn't one of @Wiz's problems that the Blorg fleet was ill-suited to fight kinetic weapons? Looking at the ill-fated battle, it was technically two "2k" fleets fighting. But one had 11 DDs and 30 Corvettes and the other had 5 cruisers and 4 destroyers. We don't know how that fleet strength number is calculated exactly, but we can surmise that it is likely a very rough approximation of combat power. One number literally cannot take into account combat power against every other combination of weapon and defense.

So what we saw happen is a 41 ship fleet smash a 9 ship fleet. Is that really surprising? Looking at the numbers, and assuming I'm remembering correctly that 1 cruiser = 2 destroyers = 4 corvettes, the Blorg fleet had a 28 corvette fleet against a 52 corvette fleet and the larger fleet had a better weapon combo to fight the Blorg.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

True the fight he lost was more about the modules and weapons used. His enemy used kinetic weapons and had a build quite heavy on shields while Wiz used Energy weapons and had a bit stronger shields compared to his armor.

The interesting part for this discussion is why the decision was made not to build battleships but to pump smaller ones afterwards. And the fights with the rebel fractions that had battleships. While it was always clear that said rebels would lose against the fleet Wiz concentrated it was still interesting to see the behaviour of both fleets.

Thing about Earth history is that it's ongoing. We haven't seen a fleet engagement between comparable modern powers since WW2. It's entirely plausible that with current or near future technology, a surface ship armed with effective automated defence systems can destroy incoming aircraft and missiles with 100% reliability. This could hand power back to the ship with the biggest gun (probably a railgun), making it unclear if the reign of the carrier ever lasted more than a few decades.

The thing is that in space a "carrier" could not deliver the same function as on earth anyway.

First it is unlikley that the small crafts started from such a carrier would be able to drastically increase the striking distance on the same level as aircraft carriers did for naval combat.
Second the small crafts dispatched from such a carrier would not be analogous to aircrafts since there is no airspace in space. They would use the same medium as the big ships. Which would place them more in the role of a torpedo boat or some other fast and manouverable escort craft.
Third there is the question whether such an bomber or fighter wing would even have an speed atvantage in frictionless space. More likley it would be an advantage in manouverbility and acceleration but not in ultimate speed possible.

In the game the carrier even has to be quite close to the action. I think Wiz described the bombers and fighters quite well as missiles that keep fireing.

 

[REDDQ]

The big problem with small missile tactics in Stellaris is you have no way of knowing if they'll work until you're into the fire. And even then you may not be able to identify why they don't work. If you run into an empire that runs heavy on point defense and armor, those ships aren't going to get very far. On the other hand, shield heavy and no point defense will have a bad day. [unless shields are specifically good against missiles and bad against armor, but anyway, in that case just reverse them].

Just like the Blorg ran into mass driver focused ships that shredded their fleet, due to an over reliance on shields. Specialized ship designs are very much a gamble in Stellaris, because you have no way of knowing what you'll face.

Generalist design seems safer, with multiple weapon types and a mix of defenses on every ship. Sure they won't excel against everything, but you won't get trounced by perfect counters either.

Well, you are most likely 100% right. Sounds boring though.

 

[mrinku]

Third there is the question whether such an bomber or fighter wing would even have an speed atvantage in frictionless space. More likley it would be an advantage in manouverbility and acceleration but not in ultimate speed possible.

Yeah, I might stop you there. Unless you're pushing light speed (and it does not appear Stellaris ships do outside of system-system FTL travel, otherwise they'd instantly travel from one side of a solar system to the other in a one second day) "ultimate speed possible" is a function of acceleration.

Ediit: I realise it's really about delta V but these appear to be reactionless drives of some sort.

 

[Cannes]

1. The fleet behaviour. We have no direct control over the ships and as of yet we have not seen a single ship that kept its distance. Even ships armed with nothing but missiles (the long range weapon of the three) did rush into close combat. From all description I have read or seen interviews so far on combat computers those are more on general orders (attack only if fired upon versus hunt everything down and if it flees follow them!).

That's not true at all. If you look carefully at the battles you can definitely tell that some ships are trying to keep their difference. The most obvious example is in the bonus material of one of the middle streams where Wiz declares war on the fallen empire. They attack with some advanced tachyon lasers and they stay far out of range of Wiz's less advanced fleet.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

Yeah, I might stop you there. Unless you're pushing light speed (and it does not appear Stellaris ships do outside of system-system FTL travel, otherwise they'd instantly travel from one side of a solar system to the other in a one second day) "ultimate speed possible" is a function of acceleration.

Ediit: I realise it's really about delta V but these appear to be reactionless drives of some sort.

All I have to answer is: Ion Drive. Small acceleration but constantly acceleration => massive speed. Yes a big ship would need it's sweet time to get there but intercepting a fast moving fleet would be quite a shore (and without a tech to counter inertia a quite dead pilot).

I don't say it is impossible just that thinking 1:1 air carrier at sea to some space vessel playing "mothership" for smaller space vesseles is unlikley the right way to think about it.

I agree that for the scope of the game working with max speeds is a good thing to do and the carriers just need to work within the balance. Still I'm glad that the carriers need to be close by and anti missile systems are also a good protection from small space crafts.

That's not true at all. If you look carefully at the battles you can definitely tell that some ships are trying to keep their difference. The most obvious example is in the bonus material of one of the middle streams where Wiz declares war on the fallen empire. They attack with some advanced tachyon lasers and they stay far out of range of Wiz's less advanced fleet.

Ok I can't watch each stream life or before twitch replaces the vid. So for quite some bit of it I can only comment on what is available on youtube. The fallen empire likley could use combat computers so they might be the soloution for the problems we have seen in other battles. It makes starting with missle tech a bit problematic though (since you seem to have to research for quite a while before combat computers are an option). I was refereing to a preview for one of the youtubers where they had only the starting force with missiles and wanted to demonstrate space combat by going after one of the space monsters ant the corvettes charged right into close range.

 

[Xylophone]

In theory you can overkill with Battleships. If you hit a corvette with 400% dmg needed to kill it, you waste the your damage potential. Smaller guns make spreading damage easier, although I don't know exactly how Stellaris combat will work.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Ok I can't watch each stream life or before twitch replaces the vid. So for quite some bit of it I can only comment on what is available on youtube. The fallen empire likley could use combat computers so they might be the soloution for the problems we have seen in other battles. It makes starting with missle tech a bit problematic though (since you seem to have to research for quite a while before combat computers are an option). I was refereing to a preview for one of the youtubers where they had only the starting force with missiles and wanted to demonstrate space combat by going after one of the space monsters ant the corvettes charged right into close range.

Why can't you watch the stream here?!?

https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/61927498
https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/59117784