Battleships - The Laughter of The High Seas

[Friedericus Rex]

Having fought a couple of carrier-fleet battles, I couldn't help but notice how incredibly useless battleships have become. If your fleet doesn't have air cover and engages a fleet that does, your fleet is doomed, since the enemy vessels will simply stay out of your firering range. If both fleets have air cover, the opposing carriers will simply fight it out on their own, while the BBs only role is to play target for the enemy CVs.

My question:

1. Has anybody ever seen carrier fleets coming close enough for BBs to play a role?

2. If you would have fleet of fast BBs/BCs and fast CAs and screening ships, would they try or be able to close the distance so that they could actually hand out a beating?

3. Have you found any other use for your cap ships, like for example convoy hunting?

 

[Maximilian I]

try combining your bb fleet with naval bomber support ... works fine for me as italy e.g.

 

[Friedericus Rex]

That would probably work fine in the med, if an enemy carrier group catches your BB group in the middle of the atlantic, than god have mercy on their souls.

Don't get me wrong, I know that this is how its supposed to work though, I was simply curious what your thoughts/experiences were.

 

[cmstea0]

last night i had a task force composed of the bismarck and 5 BCs with CAs, CLs, and DDs. i ran into a brit/french CV battlegroup in bad weather at night and sank every last one of them. one of the BCs took a little damage. it was an absolute slaughter.

it just depends on the circumstances.

-chris

 

[dconner]

The tricky bit seems to be what can happen when night, bad weather, poor detection(?), and/or other factors combine to get battleships into decent firing range of a fleet's carriers. I lost my first Italian CV to a British battleship-dominated fleet early on in just such a circumstance, where instead of getting a nice, clean air strike scenario, the battle turned into a nasty knife fight at close range.

Hmm... I'm just taking a close look at the stats (on HoI2Wiki) for battleships. In my game, the British have been rolling out some new Super-Heavy battleships, and I've encountered and sunk a couple of them with my big task force. Pretty easily, too - I was worried a little that the Super-Heavy might be able to take air strikes and close, or something.

But as it turns out, if you look at the stats, the Super Heavy is sort of a "throwback" type ship in some ways, like the ultimate Great War battleship. Its air defense and air attack values are not impressive....

 

[Mjuice]

I managed to sink all the carriers the british had with the Bismarck and the Tirpitz. Later I sunk almost all the US carriers and only one of those with a CV of my own. I did eventually lose the Bismarck to a force of 3 american carriers though. If you have an advantage in doctrines and admirals capital ships will succeed in closing in.

 

[Aragos]

In general, BB's were pretty useless in WW2, especially in the Pacific. If you didn't have air cover, you ended up like HMS Prince of Wales and Repluse. In the Med, things were somewhat different, but again, it was because both sides had easy access to airbases and plenty of aircraft. Most decisive surface actions were either at night or in bad/poor weather, which allowed the BB's to close to gun range.

WWII was the final charge of the BB's--the US had planned on building a huge fleet of the things (the Montana class and larger), but ended up only building those that were at sea trials in 1941-52 (the Iowa class) because the rest were just a waste of manpower and materials.

But they do look cool

 

[unmerged(14553)]

Having fought a couple of carrier-fleet battles, I couldn't help but notice how incredibly useless battleships have become.

Perfect. WW2 was the conflict that showed the BB to be obsolete and witnessed the rise of the Carrier... after WW2, BBs were gradually phased out and mostly used as shore bombardment/AA defense for the carriers.

Up to you to come up with some sort of solution if you like BB...

 

[Spruce]

it like the new naval system but i have a question =

can your taskforce split up so at least some of your ships can get within firing range of the carriers?

carriers where great to strike the enemy fleet - but when they lost contact it was a different story,

but I agree carriers where very fast,

i tend to attach 2 or 3 subs to my BB fleets - they help in sinking the carriers,

 

[unmerged(16099)]

1. Has anybody ever seen carrier fleets coming close enough for BBs to play a role?

Yes, I am currently playing a game as Canada where my fleet of 3 carriers plus DD and CL escort has had to run from heavy German capital ships on numerous occassions.

My fleet is stationed in the North Sea and often nighttime conditions and/or poor weather results in big penalties to my carriers. Under the cover of such conditions the german navy is often able to get within firing range of my ships.

 

[JASGripen]

As posted before BB:s were antiquated even at the start of the war. Shore bombardement was (and is) their best role. CV:s ruled the seas during WWII, and I do hope that the game mirrors that.

 

[Friedericus Rex]

I managed to sink all the carriers the british had with the Bismarck and the Tirpitz. Later I sunk almost all the US carriers and only one of those with a CV of my own. I did eventually lose the Bismarck to a force of 3 american carriers though. If you have an advantage in doctrines and admirals capital ships will succeed in closing in.

Ah, that's good to know

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

1. Has anybody ever seen carrier fleets coming close enough for BBs to play a role?

Yes, rarely.

2. If you would have fleet of fast BBs/BCs and fast CAs and screening ships, would they try or be able to close the distance so that they could actually hand out a beating?

If you have superior positioning and a superior admiral, this is a possibility.

If your admirals are of about equivalent skill and your doctrines are about the same, don't expect to catch carrier fleets with BB fleets, ever.

3. Have you found any other use for your cap ships, like for example convoy hunting?

They make excellent tough targets to tie up enemy carrier fleets at extreme range - while I pound the carriers to oblivion with my land based naval or tactical bombers.

And they are useful for shore bombardment.

And if you are facing an opponenent that concentrates on battleships and cruisers AND has better doctrines and admirals, then focusing on carriers alone without some ships that can stand and deal out a pounding at close range could have really, really, bad results. This is not going to happen often

That said, the era of battleships and battlecruisers is definitely over in HoI2 - so long as you can afford to build the carriers.

 

[unmerged(19579)]

Dont underestimate the Role of the BB (historically)

Most of the British Carriers werent "real" Carriers. They have been "support" carriers for convoys and havent been very large.
Historically, they have been shot like ducks by Subs as some Heroes of WW2 did... there was one (doenst remember the name) who shot 60 (!) carrier on his own with one sub during the war.

And to come to the BB. Remember the Bismarck: If she had reached open waters, she would have done a real real real great amount of damage to allied convoys, for there was nothing in open waters to stop her....

 

[unmerged(37417)]

Historically, they have been shot like ducks by Subs as some Heroes of WW2 did... there was one (doenst remember the name) who shot 60 (!) carrier on his own with one sub during the war.

Ahem .. you mean, that guy damaged or even sunk 60 carriers?
No way.
There weren't even nearly 60 CV/CVL/CVE sunk during the whole of WW2, much less by subs alone.
Where did you get that from?

 

[Darks63]

with the new naval combat syster the 1914 mods going to be awesome

hey if u think that the carriers are bad look at the destroyers on got lucky and wasted the bismark and the graf zeppelin just bad luck sometimes

 

[unmerged(34239)]

...and antiquated norweigan coastal artillery managed to sink the Blucher in "Oslofjorden".

 

[unmerged(28147)]

Having fought a couple of carrier-fleet battles, I couldn't help but notice how incredibly useless battleships have become. If your fleet doesn't have air cover and engages a fleet that does, your fleet is doomed, since the enemy vessels will simply stay out of your firering range. If both fleets have air cover, the opposing carriers will simply fight it out on their own, while the BBs only role is to play target for the enemy CVs.

My question:

1. Has anybody ever seen carrier fleets coming close enough for BBs to play a role?

2. If you would have fleet of fast BBs/BCs and fast CAs and screening ships, would they try or be able to close the distance so that they could actually hand out a beating?

3. Have you found any other use for your cap ships, like for example convoy hunting?

It all boils down to the skill and experience of your commander, as that's what decides whose range will be used. I've seen battles where ranging swings back and forth because one commander will gain more experience than the other one round, then the next the other commander has the range advantage.

 

[Chris8b]

1. Has anybody ever seen carrier fleets coming close enough for BBs to play a role?

Very rarely and never against a good admiral.

2. If you would have fleet of fast BBs/BCs and fast CAs and screening ships, would they try or be able to close the distance so that they could actually hand out a beating?

Only if you have a very good admiral and the enemy does not. Of course, good naval doctrine helps as well.

For anyone that is disturbed by the inability of battleships to engage, as I was initially, a remedial reading of the Battle of Midway will quell any misgivings.

3. Have you found any other use for your cap ships, like for example convoy hunting?

I form small fleets (10-12 ships) using BBs and CAs along with escorts that I use to patrol my rear coastal areas for transports or convoy hunters, to provide shore bombardment, and to escort transports in rear areas. I'll also use them anywhere I can provide them with shore based air cover. I then use my CV battle fleets to hunt the enemy in open waters. I've stopped putting BBs, BCs, and CAs in my CV fleets altogether unless I need shore bombardment.

 

[egross]

I think BB's perform fairly historically in HOI2.

BB on BB engagements were relatively rare in WWII, and usually only happened when airpower was not available or otherwise constrained.

BB's greatest contributions to the war came in areas other than their designed purpose as mainstays of the battleline. They were employed more often in shore bombardment, commerce raiding (the Germans) and (especially in the Pacific by the Americans) as ungodly huge floating anti-aircraft platforms.

It's worth noting that the BB on BB engagements in the Pacific were night battles, and that constraints on the deployment of BB's (especially for the Japanese) were first and foremost vulnerability to air attack.

So, that having been said, it seems that (so far) HOI2 plays that out rather well.

In my current game as the US, my BB's in the Pacific have had an unusual and ahistorical number of kills, including some Japanese carriers. This is mostly due to the poor Japanese naval AI, which insists on sending small groups of combatants out to die in valiant but utterly stupid forays.