Battlefront III - Gearing for war

[unmerged(6147)]

i`m so thankful to Daniel`s Spain.
- after about 5-6 years of war, when KJ didn`t want to make white peace, i was informed that Spain won`t fund Austria because they sent too much ducats already, better give up provinces. I repeat once more - economical losses of OE was much more than Spanish, simply because he lost more troops. Expensive troops. Probably Daniel meant that hi-cost spanish troops and ships are more effective in direct fighting with OE to get benefit or someone`s fall.

I kept on sending ducats all the time Tonio, although not as much in the end as in the beginning and there was a pause, probably after I asked you to peace or it was when I got bankrupt and cancelled the vassalisation with Portugal and put all money into stab for a couple of years.

This is the entire funding story

name = "October 2, 1582 : Ottoman Empire declared war upon Austria."
name = "October 13, 1582 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has
name = "December 1, 1582 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "January 20, 1583 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "April 14, 1583 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously name = "July 18, 1583 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "October 6, 1583 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "January 8, 1584 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "May 14, 1584 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has considerably
name = "July 20, 1584 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically name = "October 23, 1584 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has considerably
name = "February 1, 1585 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "March 14, 1585 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has considerably
name = "September 2, 1585 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has considerably
name = "October 9, 1586 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "December 17, 1586 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has considerably
name = "April 2, 1590 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically name = "November 6, 1590 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "October 5, 1591 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "November 19, 1591 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "July 13, 1593 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously name = "March 5, 1594 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "November 29, 1594 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has drastically
name = "January 27, 1595 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has enormously
name = "June 21, 1595 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has slightly improved
name = "September 27, 1596 : Honorable Lord, our State Gift has

 

[admiral drake]

Yes. Totally correct.

As a neutral bystander MA went to the highest bidder. Or to anyone that offered to pay. Spain declined to pay for further MA for Austria and thus it was cancelled.

After Spain kicked Venice fleet around "for fun" last session, after Venice already had acquired maps from Porto, that choose to not defend it's capital properly, France gave MA to Venice army and fleet. This was a very friendly action, although naturally self-serving, after Venice protected her trade interests in the last war. France has since then allowed Venice unlimited trade in her COTs.

I think that after the aid Venice lent vs France in its last war vs Austria that de facto saved Austria and gave her a chance to fight the war to WP this treatment was less than fair.

OE furthermore offered to sell Rhodes to Venice cheaply.

Expecting Venice to support the Habsburgs yet again without compensation is ridiculous and preposterous. The 4000d or so it cost Venice last time has learned it's Doges a lesson!

I agree with Tonioz conclusion above that the Habsburgs missed the military, strategical as well as economical train. As far as I can see they missed the diplomatical one as well.

Furthermore Venice claims her right to sell military access to any nation she chooses to as long as she remains neutral.

it is redicilous that you steal maps from port and think you'd get away with it in a suprise attack, you helped austria vs france but port was never involved vs france , neither did spain infact and i was fighting ottos i never saw venice forces push ottos back in hungary
was kinda pathetic you even dared to ask for compensation to

just my opinion

 

[Tonioz]

Damocles, i always build independent nations, which can fight alone versus enemies with rare exception cases, when abroad finance is needed. But that is not sunday game with sleepy OE and France, and there is no opportunity to gain income. And that is well-known natural that Spain takes this duty to help Austria become stronger and independent. But i received half measures, and despite neither OE or France could beat Austria alone in nearly same conditions (finance, mp, support, morale, crt), i proved my effiecienty in this game.

I did everything to take Venice on habsburg side, tryed to escape possible attack of Poland and Brandenburg by settling relations with them. But since Venice and Spain fucked up own relations, and Venice turned more to France-OE alliance, i don`t see which way i damage my ally (like it should be) if other alliance spent much more ducats and efforts.

And of course that is longterm intension to give up provinces to the mainlands of Austria for better further attacks, and then try to launch offensive war on 40 monthly ducats before Turenne comes. And even after that regularly lag in CRT despite on full land investments.

Indeed proper stategical interests of Spain is to give France and OE everything they want in spanish leaders time, and then save ducats for own eco-improving becoming second land-helpess Portugal.

 

[unmerged(11216)]

The Prince-Elector wishes to enlight that his intervention against Imperial rebels was pure spontaneus from our side. The Emperor requested no aid, however we still felt a certain debt towards Austria from saving us in earlier years. Brandenburgian troops have so far probably killed around 60-80k rebels, and recaptured a number of provinces; We feel whatever debt we had towards the Emperor now have been repaid. For the sake of the Empire, we humbly suggests that peace is concluded as soon as possible; The Prince-Elector think Croatia-Banat would be a fair peace for both sides, perhaps as Moldavia as a maximum.

 

[juv95hrn]

it is redicilous that you steal maps from port and think you'd get away with it in a suprise attack, you helped austria vs france but port was never involved vs france , neither did spain infact and i was fighting ottos i never saw venice forces push ottos back in hungary
was kinda pathetic you even dared to ask for compensation to

just my opinion

Oh, but I did get away with it. Didn't I? Making a deal about gaining maps from a fake war would be cheating and we don't do that do we? No instead Venice gained them from an enterprising, cunning, non-discussed surprise landing of which Venetian patriots still sing songs about.

Spain had the strategical and diplomatical choice, after Porto had failed to protect her maps, to punish Venice for its entrepreneurship, thereby decreasing her military force and potentially driving her into the arms of Spain's enemies, something I hoped would not happen. Foregoing the pleasure of punishing Venice had in fact been a choice to give a hidden compensation, that would have cost Spain nothing. Instead Spain choose to be vengeful and, naturally, enraged at the cleverness of the Venetian raiders.

The maps have almost doubled Venice incomes so they were of course still worth the naval losses from Spain's uberleader. One must hope that Spain found the pleasure of punishing the coup, after the failure to stop it, is worth the diplomatical development since.

Of course I wont punish Daniel for earlier players behaviour but Spain must explain their policies. Today Porto failed to save Spain from the first of the bancrupcies although she enjoyed the increased income from 3, then 2, goldmines to preserve its own stability. It must feel great to intervene, although too late, on the behalf of such a faithful and helpful friend to prevent and punish mapstealers.

 

[Damocles]

Damocles, i always build independent nations, which can fight alone versus enemies with rare exception cases, when abroad finance is needed. But that is not sunday game with sleepy OE and France, and there is no opportunity to gain income. And that is well-known natural that Spain takes this duty to help Austria become stronger and independent. But i received half measures, and despite neither OE or France could beat Austria alone in nearly same conditions (finance, mp, support, morale, crt), i proved my effiecienty in this game.

You're a great player Tonioz. One of the best. That is why you are able to make so much of certain situations. I.E, having Venice open up a new front, or having a very long, rough terrained country to defend. And I don't think you can accuse Spain of a lack of funding. You've done alot with it. Your max decentralization (critical for managing WE) and 50% boost in manpower helped to. But at the end...You made the most of it because you're one of the better players in the community.

What I'm trying to convey is that war score is not everything. And that it is your stubborn refusal to cut your losses that has been driving the Habsburg alliance into the ground. By soaking every inch of soil with your blood, you ultimately hurt yourself far more. You don't have a CRT and a leader advantage along with an extra ally like Venice to join the war this time and retake the initiative...And as far as I know, the Ottoman Empire still has another twenty years before an event cripples it and forces it to peace.

Beyond that, Spain could never have declared war on me with Farnese anyways. He was at -3 stability and wasn't going to get any higher for awhile. It also would have put a severe dint in Spain's trading and colonizing. Essentially, telling Spain to attack France was the worst advice you could possibly try and press on him. Besides, I had two shock 5 leaders of my own.

 

[Tonioz]

i think juv you are far from being objective, because Spain took mercy over you by fast signing of white peace, giving goodwill to discuss the situation between sessions, while they could demand from you anything. But it seems it is more profitable for you to take another side and find excuse.

 

[unmerged(18425)]

I am watching this thread closely to see if I have arguments next sunday to use against Damo when he bugs for funding again

 

[Tonioz]

look FAL, look.. but as i said before i could only dream about such passive France and OE, like at sunday game. And no venice with italian boost (and no poland) gives Austria there 70-80 ducats income with more MP than France.

 

[ForzaA]

Can someone intelligent explain the stupid syntax in the bankrptcy event

AND = {
OR ={
owned = { province = 24 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 27 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 159 data = -1 }
}
OR ={
owned = { province = 25 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 163 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 167 data = -1 }
}
OR ={
owned = { province = 26 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 194 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 169 data = -1 }
}

Does it mean that if I completly own anyone of these tripples I go bankrupt? So if I lack one of the three provinces in each tripple I do not go bankrupt?

actually, it means that if you have at least one from each triple, you get the event.

An OR statement is true, if one of the three statements contained within is true, ie. if you own but one of the three provinces mentioned in one OR.
the AND (the whole trigger) returns true if all OR's return true.

Ie. you can get the event with as little as 3 provinces (f.ex. own just 24,25,26) and you can avoid it with a maximum of 6 provinces still in your hands (don't own 24,27 and 159, or don't own 25, 163 and 167 or don't own 26,169, 194)

 

[unmerged(18425)]

ForzaA you inquisitive idiot, don't help him with that!

 

[juv95hrn]

i think juv you are far from being objective, because Spain took mercy over you by fast signing of white peace, giving goodwill to discuss the situation between sessions, while they could demand from you anything. But it seems it is more profitable for you to take another side and find excuse.

Demand anything from me they could but achieve it is far from certain with such powerful, aggressive neighbours all around. If not so why didn't Spain push on? The relentless naval pursuits stopped very sudden when I informed of the diplomatical situation and the Spanish king himself suggested white peace. That raping Venice further would potentially lead to attempt at vengeance later on was finally seen although I had hoped it should have been understood from the start. The war ended in strict neutrality. One devious act for another.

The merciful "fast white peace" still cost Venice 2300d in naval losses and the promised discussions never materialized. Why should Venice bleed for the Habsburgs without so much as a motivation or a thank you? Venice doesn't need to make excuses to see the lack of profitability in following such a policy. If the Habsburgs pretend to be friendly to Venice it's high time they start showing so in word and in deed!

 

[ForzaA]

First you raped Forzaa's inflation by holding onto Alsace,

I demand compensation

 

[Tonioz]

Juv, stealing maps is most insulting action, on the place of Bocaj and Drake i would reacted same way or even worse. That is the question why you and Iberians couldn`t deal that before if you insisting on the compensation (Austria never knew it before Venice dowed Portugal), but stealing the maps is same as opening big eternal war. I told Drake that it is important to keep Venice and prevent further maps sharing, so he took his emotions down.

But judjing your words, and that you don`t realize you started insult action without enough reasons (the compensation for taking part in the war should be better discussed with all parties than just such sacking the capital), i see like it was your intension from the beginning to switch alliances. No wonder for the game, when more insult action happened.

Spain ruler was changed, Venice was forbidden. It is clearly seen that longterm gain of Venice was much much more than shortterm losses of some fleet. But looks funny you are counting your deserved fleet losses, each time more aggressively and aggressively.

By posting this post and expressing my opinion, i clearly see, that it is Venice intensions to go out Habsburg alliance, despite on serious part of Italy received (rest is eaten by France), and i see that is nothing to lose for the relations now. Venice got very good bonus after all like very nice maps for this period, but they prefer to calculate what they lost. That explains.

 

[Fredrik82]

Shall I ICQ them to you? I have a cold so I am at home tomorrow.

I will probably be online sometime after 13CET tomorrow,
depends how hard i work tonight

Otherwise, it was a good game. Elizabeth, what a woman. Long live the queen

 

[Fredrik82]

Forzaa,
perhaps wald can sub for ya next session aswell.
Talk to him about it on ICQ.

 

[juv95hrn]

Juv, stealing maps is most insulting action, on the place of Bocaj and Drake i would reacted same way or even worse. That is the question why you and Iberians couldn`t deal that before if you insisting on the compensation (Austria never knew it before Venice dowed Portugal), but stealing the maps is same as opening big eternal war. I told Drake that it is important to keep Venice and prevent further maps sharing, so he took his emotions down.

I agree it's insulting but without maps Venice economy would be doomed to stagnate with few merchants and markets. Also understand that MAP TRADING IS FORBIDDEN. I wouldn't hint at "if I happen to steal some maps, don't react too violently and we can all be friends afterwards". That would be a fake war! Yes, I counted on the Habsburgs wanting to keep Venice alive even after I offended them by stealing Portos maps. Yes, I counted on them not wanting to drive Venice into the arms of their enemies. Yes, I counted on that Venice shold be left with some defenses to prevent the maps from be spread further. I should have explained that earlier if I didnt believe my fleet was more resilient to the Spanish uber admiral and that Drake would have seen what you saw earlier and that I felt it to be too close to cheating to explain to too clearly. Achieving maps for Venice was a deliberate act and I don't apologize for it.

But judjing your words, and that you don`t realize you started insult action without enough reasons (the compensation for taking part in the war should be better discussed with all parties than just such sacking the capital), i see like it was your intension from the beginning to switch alliances. No wonder for the game, when more insult action happened.

I entered the war to maintain my trading rights in French COTs. That this helped Austria was easily seen and understood. A single Spanish gift or thank you or promise of future rewards would have gone far to cover the losses Venice took to achieve it's objective. I counted on getting off rather easy for gaining maps as the diplomatical situation stood. In worst case I would have had to go to bed with the French and the Turks that probably would have been more than willing to save me from reprisals.

Spain ruler was changed, Venice was forbidden. It is clearly seen that longterm gain of Venice was much much more than shortterm losses of some fleet. But looks funny you are counting your deserved fleet losses, each time more aggressively and aggressively.

I'm not being aggressive but I am in my right to point out what losses I suffered in past wars. I could have lost my entire navy and army and still thought it would have been worth the maps. It just eats me some got them for free.

By posting this post and expressing my opinion, i clearly see, that it is Venice intensions to go out Habsburg alliance, despite on serious part of Italy received (rest is eaten by France), and i see that is nothing to lose for the relations now. Venice got very good bonus after all like very nice maps for this period, but they prefer to calculate what they lost. That explains.

Venice already IS out of the Habsburg alliance. Venice never promised to stay in it forever nor got much, sorry any, encouragement to do so. Leaving it was an active advice to the Habsburgs to increase their diplomatical efforts. Failing to contact Venice after last weeks incident might have had something to do with this decision. Venice will remain neutral as long as she feels it benefits her own security.

The maps were no "bonus" given but something I took, calculating risks, considering pros and cons. It's also very strange how France "gave" parts of Italy to me and the Habsburgs as well. Can't you guys decide who really did?

 

[King John]

Well, beyond spending thousands upon thousands of ducats fighting the Austrians, the Ottoman Empire fared pretty well economically. Trade 5 was achieved, and some investments were made toward trade six. Land tech 18 was of course discovered during the war, which ties up a loose end and will allow for further economic teching after the war.

Despite the large cash commitment to the war, I do think it will turn out profitable, partially because the Turkish economy can handle the inflation now that gov's reside in all the provinces, and then of course because in the long run damaging Spain's and Austria's economies does great benefit for Turkey's longterm growth. Security is just as important to the welfare of the empire as internal developement and trade, and I think this war will end in Turkey's defensive position being much stronger.

Tonio is a stubborn player. If I had known it'd be like this, I would've raped him in 1535, but now that I have the chance, It's tempting for me to fight offensively the way Tonio is fighting defensively, all or nothing, to make sure I don't have to go through this again. However, ATM, Krain and Croatia are what I'm stabhitting for I think, maybe another prov depending on ws, and that's what I'll continue to stabhit for until my warscore goes up. Once it does go up, demands go up, and that won't change until ws is at 99, or 100 if necessary.

It's good that Spain and Brandenburg are either lowering their support or ceasing it altogether. Sending money and killing rebels only encourages Tonio to take the war to greater extremes, which in the long run will only result in him losing more land and defenses as I'd be forced to take more from him to get peace. While I may be paying more for troops, I can afford to pay as much as is needed to finish this war, and the longer it goes, the more I'm going to take.

Besides, such aid, especially rebel killing, is grossly unfair when considering that France is entirely neutral. I kill my own damn rebels. But oh, it would be so easy for them to totally wreck Austria now...

 

[Fredrik82]

All or nothing attitude doesn't belong in this game,
i expect people to accept peace when it's an obvious defeat.
And you are normaly loosing a war when being stabhitted.

As the guidelines says, no eternal wars.
Play longterm folks, you loose and you win wars.
It's part of the game.

 

[Damocles]

I am watching this thread closely to see if I have arguments next sunday to use against Damo when he bugs for funding again

You've been a fine Spain for me, FAL. All that I could want. But you haven't racked up 10% inflation for me out of sheer devotion either. :rofl:

look FAL, look.. but as i said before i could only dream about such passive France and OE, like at sunday game. And no venice with italian boost (and no poland) gives Austria there 70-80 ducats income with more MP than France.

I've had my own problems as Austria in FN. I sure as hell haven't seen you fighting the Swedish, Polish and Russians. And there is nothing passive about PJL's France. We've fought three freaking wars.

So I don't think that statement is even remotely justified. We each have our pros and cons. Beyond that, you do Venice a great disservice by lumping her into one of your disadvantages, considering Venice was key in the early war.

As for the OE in FN...I got screwed out of Hungary for the first 60 years of the game so we never had as much reason to fight. And when I finally took it, he was indisposed. As for the OE here...First war, guilted into peacing. Second, Spain's alba and a horrific event ensured another white peace. This is your first real war with the OE.

LOL. Not only has my Austria dealt with Brandenburg and Poland, (alternately shedding blood to help them, fight them or make them allies) I'm dealing with a concerted Swedish-Russian alliance as well. And this is after two wars with France. And we did have a Poland the first half of the game. And I haven't gotten one province off it since it's become AI. I let Brandenburg have them while Russia/Sweden grabbed it's cores and culture. So I'm facing a much stronger Russia/Sweden.

So don't accuse me of an easy ride. I've had it just as hard, if not harder then you (in different ways). I've just played my cards alot better.