Battlefield 1

[FOARP]

The point was, that HOI combat system can't simulate ww1 trench warfare

I'm sorry, but why do you believe this? HOI needs to be capable of simulating positional warfare because WW2 saw a number of important positional battles (e.g., El Alamein, Kursk, Monte Cassino etc.). Saying that HOI cannot simulate positional warfare is saying that it cannot properly simulate WW2.

Even so, the eastern front it was pretty static compared to HOI. How can you simulate a siege of Premzsyl, a 6 month long siege for example?

We saw a surrounded fortress battle in France in one of the earlier WWW's. Why do you believe this is impossible?

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

There is tons of stuff from WWII that hoi doesn't represent perfectly, but that doesn't mean the game is unplayable.

 

[J_Master]

This assumes that a mod will happen in a reasonable timescale. With the best will in the world, we can look at how long it took for the HOI WW1 mods to appear for previous editions:

HOI1 - Never finished.
HOI2 - Effectively never finished
HOI3 - Completed to a reasonable standard ~4 years post-release.

And then you have to consider that even the makers of the HOI3 mod are quite happy to admit that their mod only really works in MP (the AI in HOI3 is just incapable of properly balancing fronts) and that they would prefer a DLC.

The WWI scenario of DH was great. Starting the day before Franz Fredinand was killed, and from there building up to conflict via events and discisions. I don't need an buildup, because that was about navy and new guns, not increasing the size of the army

 

[Adrized]

This assumes that a mod will happen in a reasonable timescale. With the best will in the world, we can look at how long it took for the HOI WW1 mods to appear for previous editions:

HOI1 - Never finished.
HOI2 - Effectively never finished
HOI3 - Completed to a reasonable standard ~4 years post-release.

And then you have to consider that even the makers of the HOI3 mod are quite happy to admit that their mod only really works in MP (the AI in HOI3 is just incapable of properly balancing fronts) and that they would prefer a DLC.

Some guy made a thread here stating that he was already working on and planning for a WW1 mod for HoI4. Considering the modding support for this game, it will probably be released quite soon after release.

 

[FOARP]

The WWI scenario of DH was great. Starting the day before Franz Fredinand was killed, and from there building up to conflict via events and discisions. I don't need an buildup, because that was about navy and new guns, not increasing the size of the army

Yup. Agreed on all points.

Only thing I'd like to point out here in case anyone missed it: the DH WW1 scenario was a professionally-made scenario.

Some guy made a thread here stating that he was already working on and planning for a WW1 mod for HoI4. Considering the modding support for this game, it will probably be released quite soon after release.

I don't want to be seen to bad-mouth other modders, but this is extremely unlikely based simply on how much work would have to be done (and did have to be done for perivous WW1 mods) even with the additional support.

 

[Zaku]

I'm sorry, but why do you believe this? HOI needs to be capable of simulating positional warfare because WW2 saw a number of important positional battles (e.g., El Alamein, Kursk, Monte Cassino etc.). Saying that HOI cannot simulate positional warfare is saying that it cannot properly simulate WW2.

That's a strawman arguement.
You are talking about 3 battles in WW2 and I'm talking about the whole western front in WW1.

 

[J_Master]

Yup. Agreed on all points.

Only thing I'd like to point out here in case anyone missed it: the DH WW1 scenario was a professionally-made scenario.

I know, I want a DLC as bad as you want it. It just shows that with proper support the series can pull of a good WWI scenario, and with the new peace mechanics, battleplans, naval control and civil wars, it can get even better

 

[FOARP]

That's a strawman arguement.
You are talking about 3 battles in WW2 and I'm talking about the whole western front in WW1.

You mean "the whole western front except for 1914 and 1918". And even then there's no reason why anything has to play out exactly as it did historically.

And why exactly do you think it's a straw-man argument? Are you saying these battles didn't happen? There weren't that many fewer of them than there were of the stalemate-type battles in WW1.

Let's count: Ypres, Artois, 2nd Ypres, Verdun, Somme, Nivelle, Passchendale. That's seven positional battles in WW1 against the ~12 more-or-less mobile battles I listed before.

And for positional warfare in 1936-45? We've got the ABC line, Tobruk, El Alamein, Monte Cassino, Kursk.

No-one here is claiming that WW1 was as mobile as WW2. However, to characterise WW1 as entirely static and WW2 as entirely mobile is clearly utterly wrong.

Since the HOI game engine has to be able to handle both positional and mobile battles, just why do you believe it cannot handle WW1?

 

[Axe99]

In HOI if you encounter an entrenched position you manouver and attack somewhere else. In WW1 you can't do that because a few machine guns can hold off an entire regiment. At least until you have tanks, but that's only for the end of the war.

The point was, that HOI combat system can't simulate ww1 trench warfare and that was a huge part of the war. This doesn't change because the eastern front was a little more mobile. Even so, the eastern front it was pretty static compared to HOI. How can you simulate a siege of Premzsyl, a 6 month long siege for example?

HoI4 still needs to be able to handle the Italian campaign, which involved quite a lot of slogging that was very reminiscent of WWI-style warfare (there are other examples, but the width of the Italian peninsular makes for a good slog).

It's also something HoI3 didn't handle too badly (indeed, some argue HoI3's combat was in some ways closer to WW1 than WW2 style combat, although I'm not able to remember the specific case right now - sorry to be vague), and I can't imagine that with a bit of sensible tweaking to the defines (if necessary - it could be enough just to change what equipment is available) that the HoI4 engine will be able to handle it as well. I really can't see the mechanics in HoI4 having much of an issue with a WW1-style conflict on the ground, sea or air.

 

[Zaku]

You mean "the whole western front except for 1914 and 1918". And even then there's no reason why anything has to play out exactly as it did historically.

Yes, I mean the whole western front between 1914 and 1918. As I said 1914 wasn't trench warfare because they haven't figured if out yet that it is extremely effective. (won't happen with the player)
1918 was the last year of the war. Germans could break through on the main line, but the next line awaited them, then the next line, then the next line. Soon they ran out of supplies and the offensive stalled. Let me quote the end of the Wiki article on the Spring offensive:

The Kaiserschlacht offensives had yielded large territorial gains for the Germans, in First World War terms. However, victory was not achieved and the German armies were severely depleted, exhausted and in exposed positions. The territorial gains were in the form of salients which greatly increased the length of the line that would have to be defended when Allied reinforcements gave the Allies the initiative. In six months, the strength of the German army had fallen from 5.1 million fighting men to 4.2 million.[30] By July, the German superiority of numbers on the Western Front had sunk to 207 divisions to 203 Allied, a negligible lead which would be reversed as more American troops arrived.[27] German manpower was exhausted. The German High Command predicted they would need 200,000 men per month to make good the losses suffered, returning convalescents could supply 70,000–80,000/month but there were only 300,000 recruits available from the next annual class of eighteen-year-olds.[31] Even worse, they lost most of their best-trained men: stormtrooper tactics had them leading the attacks. Even so, about a million German soldiers remained tied up in the east until the end of the war.

 

[J_Master]

That's a strawman arguement.
You are talking about 3 battles in WW2 and I'm talking about the whole western front in WW1.

You mean "the whole western front except for 1914 and 1918". And even then there's no reason why anything has to play out exactly as it did historically.

A good player can finish the war in the west by mid 1915. I've done it multiple times(DH), and it is fun. But with the more detailed map, the German retreat to the Hindenburg line can be shown. For Germany, stalemate will mean balancing both fronts, for France taking pressure of Russia, for Brittain defeating the German allies. There was more than enough mobility during WWI, but not on the stage it got famous for.

 

[Zaku]

HoI4 still needs to be able to handle the Italian campaign, which involved quite a lot of slogging that was very reminiscent of WWI-style warfare (there are other examples, but the width of the Italian peninsular makes for a good slog).

Yes, but the terrain there is extremely good for defense, and you can't manouver around strongpoints because it's so narrow.

It's also something HoI3 didn't handle too badly (indeed, some argue HoI3's combat was in some ways closer to WW1 than WW2 style combat, although I'm not able to remember the specific case right now - sorry to be vague), and I can't imagine that with a bit of sensible tweaking to the defines (if necessary - it could be enough just to change what equipment is available) that the HoI4 engine will be able to handle it as well. I really can't see the mechanics in HoI4 having much of an issue with a WW1-style conflict on the ground, sea or air.

This is whay I'm against a HOI4 WW1 DLC because a modder can do it as well. You talk about tweaking the defines to simulate ww1, but why should I pay for that? If PDS wants a WW1 experience they should create a new combat mechanic. WW1 was a very important part of history, and a WW2 DLC can't do justice for it.

 

[FOARP]

1918 was the last year of the war. Germans could break through on the main line, but the next line awaited them, then the next line, then the next line. Soon they ran out of supplies and the offensive stalled. Let me quote the end of the Wiki article on the Spring offensive:

Yes, I cannot think of even a single instance of the same thing happening in WW2.

Yes, but the terrain there is extremely good for defense, and you can't manouver around strongpoints because it's so narrow.

And the game seems perfectly capable of handling the positional warfare that occurred there.

This is whay I'm against a HOI4 WW1 DLC because a modder can do it as well. You talk about tweaking the defines to simulate ww1, but why should I pay for that? If PDS wants a WW1 experience they should create a new combat mechanic.

So, HOI cannot handle WW1, but a modder can easily code a WW1 mod. This, apparently, is your logic.

 

[Zaku]

Yes, I cannot think of even a single instance of the same thing happening in WW2.

What's your point?

 

[Zaku]

So, HOI cannot handle WW1, but a modder can easily code a WW1 mod. This, apparently, is your logic.

My logic is:
I would play with a mod because it's free.
I would not pay for it because it's sloppy work from a professional developer company. If they do something they should do it right.

Hoi should focus on WW2.
An other game should focus on WW1.

 

[FOARP]

What's your point?

It should be pretty obvious, but in case you missed it: WW2 also featured battles in which people broke through the front lines only to be stymied by defence lines built further back. The Battle of the Bulge is one such battle. These battles are still fun to play through to see if you can do better.

My logic is:
I would play with a mod because it's free.
I would not pay for it because it's sloppy work from a professional developer company. If they do something they should do it right.

So, basically, you would want to play it, but you just don't want to pay for it. You believe its perfectly possible for a modder to make a playable WW1 mod but you don't think professional developers with access to the .exe could do a better job because of arbitrary reasons.

 

[Zaku]

It should be pretty obvious, but in case you missed it: WW2 also featured battles in which people broke through the front lines only to be stymied by defence lines built further back. The Battle of the Bulge is one such battle. These battles are still fun to play through to see if you can do better.

So you come with a strawman arguement again?
I never said that WW2 didn't feature deep battles.

 

[J_Master]

My logic is:
I would play with a mod because it's free.
I would not pay for it because it's sloppy work from a professional developer company. If they do something they should do it right.

Hoi should focus on WW2.
An other game should focus on WW1.

HOI can do WWI. DH did it. The mods for 2&3 did it. Why can't 4 do justice to WWI?

 

[FOARP]

So you come with a strawman arguement again?
I never said that WW2 didn't feature deep battles.

But you did say that this was a reason why a WW1 DLC should not be made. Despite basically admitting that the Kaiserschlacht was essentially a battle of maneouvre and therefore the Western Front was not a pure stalemate, which seemed to be your main objection to a WW1 DLC.

 

[Zaku]

HOI can do WWI. DH did it. The mods for 2&3 did it. Why can't 4 do justice to WWI?

You can create a mod for anything, but the best thing is when something has a focus.