So for my mountain divisions to go in mountains and my tanks in plains I have to draw seperate arrows, that's good! I do rather simply draw two lines instead of one anyway, to make sure divisions stay where they are supposed to be.
Battle Planner what is it really?
- Thread starter Modestus
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I know the HOI III mechanics very well so arrows being eye candy and the lines the real deal made sense in my head but I could be wrong because I haven´t played HOI IV yet; with that said what I´ve seen led me to believe that those lines replaced the HOI III TH HQ areas/objectives that created a front in HOI III and the arrows "axis of attack" seems to be nothing more than the regular AI pathing going from point A to B (...)
Actually that is fine and dandy for low scale operations but if I am forced to do that in large scale operations (...) I might as well control the divisions manually because it will be less micro and achieve better results.
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I agree, besides the bonus at a certain point the Planner becomes too unreliable (unless there is more to it then we know) and too much work manual control is far better,
Once an offensive starts and the more detailed your Plan the more certain that Plan will need to be changed as the AI reacts to it (part of the reason for Plans in the first place was to help the AI) you then begin to question the need to even have a Plan and just have that Plan in your head and manually move everything.
That is still one of my big concerns with the AI! What will the AI player do? The thing I am playing against. Can you use something like a tag matching system? Give unit types tags & give terrain types tags and have the AI try to match them up?
And/or
Something like I talked about here: Link, Link & link
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The answers are very much appreciated. Although still in development its nice to hear what your current ideas and directions are.
And anyone who doesn't realize that alpha is subject to change and doesn't appreciate the information probably couldn't figure out how to create a paradox account
Love what I'm seeing so far, and working for the federal government I have three weeks of vacation time reserved for your game. My boss has 2.
The axis of attack will most likely make units pursue this specific route first and foremost when advancing. So it could be used to move to avoid or use specific terrain types.
We may not want the ai to pursue a 'specific route', but to purse many routes that are parallel to the 'axis of attack' and with the assigned number of divisions distributed appropriately around this axis. We need the ai to take into consideration the disposition of enemy forces and maintain a continuous line of advance so that none of our divisions get cut off, or encircle, and destroyed. This should require the ai to consistently review it's selected routes as the battle progresses so that our intervention is only required in very specific cases.
It sounds like the 'axis of attack' is calculated by the game engine, based on our objectives, and handed over to the ai as a guide. If we do not assign enough divisions to capturing the objectives, then the ai will determine routes that need to be taken, and (given the lack of divisions that we assigned) the ai may take routes that seem illogical to us but rational to the ai. Feedback from the game engine is necessary so that players assign a sufficient number of divisions (adjusted with game experience) and do not rage quite when well-thought out plans go awry.
In HoI3 the AI can be quite good already if it has units "to do the job".
Go to the Hoi3 modding area and and do a search for "Dr.Johnson" or "peter_hoi3".
I also wrote many times about cool moves I've seen already from the ai from a modded HoI3.
Exploited breakthroughs, encirclemenst(1-4 provinces big) usage of hvy Armor as fire brigade etc..
As far as it seems it is in HoI4 "just" that what was long requested. The BP is finally connected in the back with the ai.
-Draw a line where you want to stop/plan next move from
-Assign units that should achive that goal
-Assign axis of advance towrads that line.
done
From that new frontline you can draw a new some further and also assign new amount of units that should be used..
If ai takes now into considerration the terrain, we'll see assigned units used at best terrain possible. Same could be done at the same moment for check of infra lvl..
Thats not that hard to implement, just needs some checks(cpu time is more crucial/how often do you want to check..)
Building a "Schwerpunkt" was also done partly in HoI3 if you assigned e.g. enough mobile forces.
Some mods played around with the units speed and got quite some nice results with that already.
So I've no doubt that the BP will be a nice feature in the end.
Go to the Hoi3 modding area and and do a search for "Dr.Johnson" or "peter_hoi3".
I also wrote many times about cool moves I've seen already from the ai from a modded HoI3.
Exploited breakthroughs, encirclemenst(1-4 provinces big) usage of hvy Armor as fire brigade etc..
As far as it seems it is in HoI4 "just" that what was long requested. The BP is finally connected in the back with the ai.
-Draw a line where you want to stop/plan next move from
-Assign units that should achive that goal
-Assign axis of advance towrads that line.
done
From that new frontline you can draw a new some further and also assign new amount of units that should be used..
If ai takes now into considerration the terrain, we'll see assigned units used at best terrain possible. Same could be done at the same moment for check of infra lvl..
Thats not that hard to implement, just needs some checks(cpu time is more crucial/how often do you want to check..)
Building a "Schwerpunkt" was also done partly in HoI3 if you assigned e.g. enough mobile forces.
Some mods played around with the units speed and got quite some nice results with that already.
So I've no doubt that the BP will be a nice feature in the end.
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The BP is finally connected in the back with the ai.
It seems that way, and this will make for a good addition to HOI IV.
Podcat said this is done by the game engine, and in recent videos you can see this happening.
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As far as it seems it is in HoI4 "just" that what was long requested. The BP is finally connected in the back with the ai.
-Draw a line where you want to stop/plan next move from
-Assign units that should achive that goal
-Assign axis of advance towrads that line.
done
.
I know what you mean but your not done you haven’t even started, all it needs is for the AI to have more forces then you anticipated and your Plan far from being done may be the death of you.
How detailed can you really make a Plan? What is the optimum level of detail that can be used?
The more time a player invests in creating a detailed Plan the less flexible that Plan becomes which in turn means the player will need to invest more time changing it.
Your statements here confuse me. Theater AI in HOI3 was perfectly capable of chasing down rebels and killing them if you gave it proper units for the task.
Don't connect your partisan suppression theater to the front line (because the AI will pull units off the line to chase rebels), but as long as you have a dedicated partisan suppression theater, you don't even have to think about rebels. Hell, it even uses CAV effectively in the hunting down rebels role.
I know, I was just saying that from what I have seen it seems that HOI IV will lack that functionality which will make the micromanagement skyrocket for my playing style. I hope I am wrong.
Oh, I see. I misread what you were saying.
What I'm hoping is that garrison forces can have a "Plan in reserve" that activates upon invasion. I also hope that I can easily designate garrison strengths for controlling the coast.
What I envision are some kind of planning tools that let me say "garrison all ports with X formations and concentrate the reaction force at location(s) X, Y, and Z. Upon invasion, send every god damn armored division to the invasion site and do not stop attacking until the invasion is pushed back into the sea, and you better damn well ignore casualties and ORG losses while you do it, because I'm not about to let my Panzers sit idle while the Allies build a beachhead you fool!"
Something like that.
ROFL
How Secret Master sees himself interacting with the Battle Planner:
"The beachhead is rank with fear. Let us ease their concerns. Send forth all Panzers. Do not stop the attack until Cherbourg is retaken. Slay them all."
"What of Patton and Montgomery?"
"I shall break them."
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I did some thinking lately, and my mind came to the following idea:
Right now, you can have one plan for each general that is commanding troops. In reality, you have a number of contingency plans ready to be put into action.
I would like it, and it would be closer to reality, if you can have more than one plan per general. If you are Italy, you can have an attack plan into france and a multilayered defense plan for the same front. That way it will realy be a battlePLANNER, not an adhoc movement order machine.
Another thing I would like to bring to attention of you folks is that there isnt really a way to break trough in a safe way. Usually in hoi3, i had one armoured corps break trough and advance deep behind enemy lines, while I slowly moved up one or more infantry corps to defend my MSR to my armour. How can you currently order that infantry corps into position through the batteplanner?
Right now, you can have one plan for each general that is commanding troops. In reality, you have a number of contingency plans ready to be put into action.
I would like it, and it would be closer to reality, if you can have more than one plan per general. If you are Italy, you can have an attack plan into france and a multilayered defense plan for the same front. That way it will realy be a battlePLANNER, not an adhoc movement order machine.
Another thing I would like to bring to attention of you folks is that there isnt really a way to break trough in a safe way. Usually in hoi3, i had one armoured corps break trough and advance deep behind enemy lines, while I slowly moved up one or more infantry corps to defend my MSR to my armour. How can you currently order that infantry corps into position through the batteplanner?
Didn't they already say you can have more than one plan in the hopper, ready for use?
You can only prepare one plan at a time (which makes sense), but you should be able to have a defensive and offensive plan for each front, if not more.
@Modestus
The podcast is quite different to what quill18 was experiencing.
It may be because of that he had access to HoI4 before that press event and had more experience how things work.
1.
A command group(A General! -Yay!) is needed to create a battle plan.(Wich can be more or less complex.)
2.
From a new line to reach or fall back line you can assign more arrows wich will be the axis of advance?
Or that will be done automatically by the ai as bruebottom wrote above.
Then I guess you can change it later on. In HoI you could so far also manually set the movement path of a unit is you use shift while plotting the provinces to move through.
3.
Each of this axis can get assigned different units.
4.
That leads to the following possibilities.
a)
Assign one new line wich can have more arrows. So you can have strong left flank with mobile forces through plains and moderate center while weak right flank(mointains?) That could lead to a big breakthrough and encirclement. Just imagine your fast units break through and follow up units secure that whole untile you reach the drawn line. The other units assigned to different arrows will follow up as fast as they can. If the enemy can't retreat fast enough, he is encircled automatically with your fast units in his back.
No arrow would mean "steamroll along the front as in mid WW1"?
b)
Assign more new lines wich interleaving steps to allow more detailed plans like encirclements.
These smaller new lines will be connected by arrows with the final line that should be reached.
Assigning new units to these arrows looks pretty fluid from what I've seen.
c)
Using more Generals/command groups and make more smaller plans. Bonus would be to shift units from one group to another more easily mabye.
Anyway. With that kind of system you can pretty fast reorganize your units and also have the freedom to decide wich plans to activate later on. As you are free to not activate or draw a new line/arrow any time.
The bonus to stuck with a plan was already explained pretty early.
Units assigned to a plan get a bonus to its execution if they're longer assigned.
As a downside, the enemy might spy you on your plans and discover what you have plannend the longer those plans exist too.
If we look at HoI3.
There we could already draw plans and save them.
So imagine to plan, draw it onto the map, then save it for later possible use.
If times come, put those plans on the map, assign the units you have at hand to it and when time is right, press "execute"..
That way you can still later on pull single units out of those plans(and thus ai control) and push them manually as "Oberkommando override" where you want them to have.
Same to when your initial plan fails. Load a prepared one, or draw a complete new one.
The vid above shows how easy that is already by now.
And the time needed to address new situations is the same as before with HoI when we did assign all movements on our own. If a plan failed we need to assign the units anew. Wich can be quite a hassle if unpausable.
With the battle plan we can do that already before and can better react to such situations as we just need to activate the new plan. While manually you need to be a fast click-click-click men.
To guard the coast/rear:
That would need "only" the whole coast/back as frontline and a special "guard" order.
Afaik I saw in the vid above some tooltip with GAR.
So that would then put some units in the ports/cities and hold back some reserve in central locations.
Or the player can drop in some mobile units if the coast/area is attacked somewhere and the ai then sends that units automatically to that spot.
In HoI3 that worked already that way with defending the Normandy as GER. Just assign the coast to one theater filled with GAR units and if landing occured the theater behind that coastline one(one prov deep only!) had a mobile reserve and would automatically send units to that attacked provinces, or you could manually send a mobile resond force via the OOB into that coasline theater wich will send that new units automatically to the combat zone.
The podcast is quite different to what quill18 was experiencing.
1.
A command group(A General! -Yay!) is needed to create a battle plan.(Wich can be more or less complex.)
2.
From a new line to reach or fall back line you can assign more arrows wich will be the axis of advance?
Or that will be done automatically by the ai as bruebottom wrote above.
Then I guess you can change it later on. In HoI you could so far also manually set the movement path of a unit is you use shift while plotting the provinces to move through.
3.
Each of this axis can get assigned different units.
4.
That leads to the following possibilities.
a)
Assign one new line wich can have more arrows. So you can have strong left flank with mobile forces through plains and moderate center while weak right flank(mointains?) That could lead to a big breakthrough and encirclement. Just imagine your fast units break through and follow up units secure that whole untile you reach the drawn line. The other units assigned to different arrows will follow up as fast as they can. If the enemy can't retreat fast enough, he is encircled automatically with your fast units in his back.
No arrow would mean "steamroll along the front as in mid WW1"?
b)
Assign more new lines wich interleaving steps to allow more detailed plans like encirclements.
These smaller new lines will be connected by arrows with the final line that should be reached.
Assigning new units to these arrows looks pretty fluid from what I've seen.
c)
Using more Generals/command groups and make more smaller plans. Bonus would be to shift units from one group to another more easily mabye.
Anyway. With that kind of system you can pretty fast reorganize your units and also have the freedom to decide wich plans to activate later on. As you are free to not activate or draw a new line/arrow any time.
The bonus to stuck with a plan was already explained pretty early.
Units assigned to a plan get a bonus to its execution if they're longer assigned.
As a downside, the enemy might spy you on your plans and discover what you have plannend the longer those plans exist too.
If we look at HoI3.
There we could already draw plans and save them.
So imagine to plan, draw it onto the map, then save it for later possible use.
If times come, put those plans on the map, assign the units you have at hand to it and when time is right, press "execute"..
That way you can still later on pull single units out of those plans(and thus ai control) and push them manually as "Oberkommando override" where you want them to have.
Same to when your initial plan fails. Load a prepared one, or draw a complete new one.
The vid above shows how easy that is already by now.
And the time needed to address new situations is the same as before with HoI when we did assign all movements on our own. If a plan failed we need to assign the units anew. Wich can be quite a hassle if unpausable.
With the battle plan we can do that already before and can better react to such situations as we just need to activate the new plan. While manually you need to be a fast click-click-click men.
To guard the coast/rear:
That would need "only" the whole coast/back as frontline and a special "guard" order.
Afaik I saw in the vid above some tooltip with GAR.
So that would then put some units in the ports/cities and hold back some reserve in central locations.
Or the player can drop in some mobile units if the coast/area is attacked somewhere and the ai then sends that units automatically to that spot.
In HoI3 that worked already that way with defending the Normandy as GER. Just assign the coast to one theater filled with GAR units and if landing occured the theater behind that coastline one(one prov deep only!) had a mobile reserve and would automatically send units to that attacked provinces, or you could manually send a mobile resond force via the OOB into that coasline theater wich will send that new units automatically to the combat zone.