Battle over Britain

[mercer]

I have read that the British won, mainly because the fight took place over British territory, and so a significant portion of downed RAF pilots who survived their aircraft's being shot down were able to return to duty. German pilots on the other hand who survived being shot down nonetheless were stranded in enemy territory, were quickly captured, and thus forever lost to the Luftwaffe. At least that's what I think.


I think there are ace pilots in the game but what about them being shot down over friendly or enemy territory is this represented in the game?

 

[Denkt]

I don't know if there is anything that effect ace survival rates but as the defender you can give your airforce some advantages:

• Your aircrafts don't need much range so you can focus your air experience on improving the weapons, reliability and engine on your aircrafts.
• You can build radar stations which give detection and combat bonuses to your aircrafts, UK have a national focus that reduce the cost of researching radar technologies so they do have an advantage here.
• Your provinces can detect enemy aircrafts flying above them which will help your aircrafts.

 

[mercer]

It is not just about advantages in battle it is also about attrition, Germany could stomach the aircraft losses but not the losses of experienced pilots.

 

[Denkt]

Aircrafts are very expensive in HOI4, a fighter cost about as much as a heavy tank, I guess that is how the developers want it to be, expensive aircrafts to abstract the cost of pilotes.

 

[Gratch11]

Germany lost BOB because
1/Radar
2/Short range for Me109
3/No LR fighters(good)
4/No Strategic Bombers
5/Bombers they had not suited for not having air superiority
6/Changing plans midway from targeting RAF/Radar to industry
7/UK outproducing germany in fighter production

 

[LordOfWar16]

Germany lost BOB because
1/Radar
2/Short range for Me109
3/No LR fighters(good)
4/No Strategic Bombers
5/Bombers they had not suited for not having air superiority
6/Changing plans midway from targeting RAF/Radar to industry
7/UK outproducing germany in fighter production

The problem wasnt the range of the bf109 but rather the poor tactical decisions made by the generals. The BF109's circled a long time at the french coast because they had to wait for the bombers which they were forced to escort closely, rather than climbing up and covering them from above to use their energy to their advantage. The BF109 and Spitfire were pretty simmilar in performance with 2 main differences. The BF109 was better in "boom-n-zooming" (diving on the enemy, strafing them and use the energy to get out of reach and up again) and they had fuel injectors, which meant they could pull much harder maneuvers without the engine stalling, which was a common issue with the early Spitfires from high G's, which didnt had injectors.

That had 2 main drawbacks:

1: The planes baislcy were out of fuel if they wanted to actually get back home when they reached the battle and very shortly after reaching it had to head back to base again, making them easier prey for the british pilots.

2: The british could easiely intercept the germans, which basicly announced their path of attack 20 minutes in advance to the british because of their radars. They could easiely get into position above the germans, which again were forced to stick with the bombers, and drop on them, giving them a massive advantage.

If the german high command had give the pilots alot more freedom in their tactical decisions, the whole battle could have went alot different for germany. They basicly didnt allow the BF109 to utilize their advantages over the british planes, which already had a huge advantage due to their radar to beginn with and announced well ahead of time where they are attacking from to the british, which could then get into perfect position to intercept them.

 

[Nicolas I]

Another practical reason is that as they were flying over their own territory (rather than long range for the Germans), the British could get more effective hours of flight per pilot. So with the same number of planes (or even with less) they could run more missions.

 

[henzington]

Radar also helped quite a bit allowing the British to better organize their response to German attacks.

 

[ArrowRL201]

Also don't forget that the Luftwaffe couldn't make up its mind as to what to attack - the cities, or the RAF on the ground.

 

[Sanny]

A lot of pilots ended up in the Channel though. Some drowned, some were rescued by British and French fishing boats. How would you represent that?

Captured enemy pilots on the otherhand technically counts as POWs and you know Paradox's stance on that in regards to it not being featured in Hearts of Iron IV. In terms of the survival mechanic though, you couldn't have one without the other. For example: Friendly pilots being rescued and having no enemy pilots being rescued. The game would require a POW mechanic in that case. Which won't happen.

 

[ArrowRL201]

Quite frankly I don't see it really worth simulating. I mean if you really wanted to, you could for each craft shot down, a chance the manpower could be recovered by either side or by a neutral nation but ultimately it feels like too much programming for too little effect.

That, and there might not BE a Battle of Britain in your play through of the game.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

It's still a worthwhile mechanic to look into, not neccessarily for BoB, but in general, should and/or how will the defender have an advantage in their own airspace?

 

[zyphial]

Also don't forget that the Luftwaffe couldn't make up its mind as to what to attack - the cities, or the RAF on the ground.

This, I think, was the true decider of the BoB. The Luftwaffe managed to pin the RAF's collective back to the wall by eliminating air fields as fast or faster than the RAF could build them. Nevermind the relative strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft, pilots, or even ranges involved, the difficulty the RAF faced because of the Luftwaffe's successes put a serious strain on the RAF's ability to bring their full might to bear... then a bomber got through during one of Hitlers speeches and he decided he was going to get him some London... right as the RAF developed new tactics, giving them the chance to rebuild their airfields and then immediatly establish an essentially impenetrable air defense in Britain... whoops. Or, really, hurrah.

 

[Katarian]

This, I think, was the true decider of the BoB. The Luftwaffe managed to pin the RAF's collective back to the wall by eliminating air fields as fast or faster than the RAF could build them.

The Luftwaffe weren't managing anything anywhere near that. At best they were managing to knock some airfields out of action for hours, they failed to knock even a single airfield out of action for anything even close to a whole day before changing their focus of attack. None of which matters that much as the RAF could have just operated from airfields further north out of range of German fighters which would have been very hard for the Germans to attempt bombing. They would not have been able to intercept as efficiently as they did from the further south bases but they still would have been able to prevent German air superiority.

The BoB was a war of attrition and the RAF was "winning" at every point.

 

[NapoleonComple]

Perhaps a separate manpower pool for pilots based on policy is something to consider. Pilot training programs were a major facet of the war.

 

[CHRIS3169]

Perhaps a separate manpower pool for pilots based on policy is something to consider. Pilot training programs were a major facet of the war.

Having pilots separate from manpower, similar to the sailors added to eu4 in mare Nostrum could work. Maybe add a search and rescue tech that improved the refresh rate of sailors and airmen could be a nice addition.

 

[NapoleonComple]

One way you could represent it is have pilot recovery be high if shot down over your own country, low but still present if shot down over friendly waters, lower still if shot down over neutral but controlled waters, and almost zero if shot down over uncontrolled/hostile territory.

I'm not sure a sailor pool would add much as I don't think a shortage of trained sailors was an issue. (at least not any more than trained soldiers). The normal manpower pool serves that fine.

 

[Krask]

This, I think, was the true decider of the BoB. The Luftwaffe managed to pin the RAF's collective back to the wall by eliminating air fields as fast or faster than the RAF could build them. Nevermind the relative strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft, pilots, or even ranges involved, the difficulty the RAF faced because of the Luftwaffe's successes put a serious strain on the RAF's ability to bring their full might to bear... then a bomber got through during one of Hitlers speeches and he decided he was going to get him some London... right as the RAF developed new tactics, giving them the chance to rebuild their airfields and then immediatly establish an essentially impenetrable air defense in Britain... whoops. Or, really, hurrah.

I think it's a little more complicated than 'a bomber getting through'.

Churchill decided he wanted to 'drop persuasive leaflets' on 'Walking industry' in Berlin for about a week, after which time Hitler decided the man had gone mad and reacted in kind.

 

[Yorkie-GBR]

I think it's a little more complicated than 'a bomber getting through'.

Churchill decided he wanted to terror bomb civis in Berlin for about a week, after which time Hitler decided the man had gone mad and reacted in kind.[/QUOTE

Sure, the British are the bad guys.

You obviously do not know that it was a German Bomber who accidentally or not let loose it payload over a civilian target as German pilots who returned home with a full bomb load would get a rite ticking off.

If was Bomber command who then bombed Berlin in retaliation.

 

[potski]

It's still a worthwhile mechanic to look into, not neccessarily for BoB, but in general, should and/or how will the defender have an advantage in their own airspace?

This is covered in the mission efficiency. Planes operating in the air region their base is located get 100% efficiency. Those operating outside their own region get an efficiency based on their range and the distance the region is away from them. So TAC with long-range might be able to operate in an adjacent region with close to 100% efficiency. Fighters would rarely have the range to do that, so they will suffer a penalty.

The BoB takes place outside of all of the air regions that the Luftwaffe could base their planes. Over the Channel, both sides would have an efficiency penalty, but RAF interceptors would get a bonus from RADAR. Over Southern England the Luftwaffe fighters get a bigger penalty, while the RAF get none. Except in bad weather or at night Spitfires and Hurricanes can operate at 100% efficiency. Over Northern England even German TAC won't have the range to be at 100%, and they won't be escorted. As mentioned, the RAF could retreat to bases in Northern England and still engage Luftwaffe planes in the south with a higher efficiency, because their bases in Yorkshire are still closer than the bases in France.

Edit: Posted just in time before the moderators close thread for discussing terror bombing.