Battle of the Iron Hearts: Hearts of Iron 3 vs Hearts of Iron 4 with Black Ice Mods

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Riekopo

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Posting others work as your own without the consent of the original author is not allowed on the forums
The beating of the war drums calls for the clash of titans, THE BATTLE OF THE IRON HEARTS! I will determine once and for all which of the Hearts of Iron heavyweights would take the championship for best wargame simulation from Paradox!

Most wargamers share the sentiment that Hearts of Iron 3 is the superior game when it comes to simulating warfare. Especially when paired with the historically immersive Black Ice mod. So to be fair, I have used the latest version of the mod for both games. Black Ice 10.33 for Heart of Iron 3 and Black Ice for 1.8.2 for Hearts of Iron 4.

The biggest difference for wargamers, when comparing these two games is the warfare mechanic (Order of Battle), industry, and the freedom to create your alternate history. Playing as Hungary in Heart of Iron 3. I spent a couple of hours just reorganizing the order of battle for the small, but yet, somewhat powerful Hungarian army. When I started sorting out division, corps, army and theatre army. It felt like I was in command of an actual army and not bunching up units under one general.


 
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Max Chee

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Hi Riekopo,

Thanks for sharing my article from my blog on the Paradox forum.

However, I would appreciate you mentioning that this article/AAR was written by me.

Thanks

Max Chee

The Avid Wargamer
 
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Fulmen

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Hi Riekopo,

Thanks for sharing my article from my blog on the Paradox forum.

However, I would appreciate you mentioning that this article/AAR was written by me.

Thanks

Max Chee

The Avid Wargamer

This is not the first time Riekopo's done this. He recently posted one of Reman's videos as if it was his own, here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-guide-to-resistance-and-compliance.1403406/

"In this video I discuss HoI4's resistance and compliance system, including the best garrison templates, how garrison combat works, the best occupation laws, and collaboration."

Notice that with your article he is also referring to himself as the writer.
 
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Tirenedon

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Hi Riekopo,

Thanks for sharing my article from my blog on the Paradox forum.

However, I would appreciate you mentioning that this article/AAR was written by me.

Thanks

Max Chee

The Avid Wargamer
I read the article and it was a nice read. While I'm not a fan of the Black Ice mod for HoI4, I do think you did a good job balancing the pros and cons of both games. I'm glad you posted there before I said this to the wrong person. :)
 
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Max Chee

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This is not the first time Riekopo's done this. He recently posted one of Reman's videos as if it was his own, here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...h-guide-to-resistance-and-compliance.1403406/

"In this video I discuss HoI4's resistance and compliance system, including the best garrison templates, how garrison combat works, the best occupation laws, and collaboration."

Notice that with your article he is also referring to himself as the writer.

Yeah, now that you mention it. I wonder why keeps on doing this.
Is this allowed here? Should not the mods do something about him? Is this why is he is on probation?

I read the article and it was a nice read. While I'm not a fan of the Black Ice mod for HoI4, I do think you did a good job balancing the pros and cons of both games. I'm glad you posted there before I said this to the wrong person. :)

Thanks Tirenedon! :)

That was my first article I wrote for my blog.

Feel free to subscribe to my blog for regular articles!

 
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blahmaster6k

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I spent a couple of hours just reorganizing the order of battle for the small, but yet, somewhat powerful Hungarian army.
And this is precisely why HoI3 is not a good game in my opinion. Any game that forces you to spend so much time just setting up a small part of the game with the game paused is an overcomplicated mess. Then again, I can't even stand the HoI4 Black Ice mod. Complexity for complexity's sake makes games less fun when I could be playing the game and doing things. In my opinion, Hoi4 does a good job of abstracting things in a way that makes sense.
 
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safe-keeper

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I liked HoI3 when it came out. Played it for hundreds of hours, and played several full campaigns. After HoI4, though, I just couldn't go back. I remember reinstalling and loading up HoI3, playing it for what felt like five minutes, and quitting and uninstalling. The UI is just clunky. God, is it clunky. Add to that how unstable and crash-prone the game can be (heck, the #1 thing I appreciated with HoI4 when it came out was that it never crashed :D ), and how god-damned long it takes to get anything done, and I don't think I'll ever return.

HoI3 did come across as a more serious WWII game, though, and the COC system did add a lot of immersion, and it was a neat feeling to have it set up and be able to quickly move corps and armies from one front to the next, for example. I wish the HoI4 system was more flexible that way. Also, I know a lot of people complain (rightfully) about how ridiculously time-consuming it was to set up a chain of command, but that's a quality of life issue, rather than a problem with the COC system itself. Heck, all it really would have taken to make it super-useful would have been that "assign selected units to nearest HQ" button from War in the East, and an auto-organise button that organised adjacent divisions into corps, adjacent corps into armies, and so on, saving you the hassle of doing so yourself. Then you could tweak it from there to your heart's content. Oh, and that hard cap on the number of units in each formation could probably be taken out as well.

Other than the COC, though, and a more... advanced, if opaque and far from perfect supply system, I don't really miss much from HoI3. The minimap was cleaner, where the HoI4 one is a cluttered mess. Even the simplified terrain mapmode is hard to read, with the unintuitive colour scheme, national borders covering terrain colours, and the even colours fading away for some reason when you zoom out (serously, who thought that was a good idea?). Oh, and I liked how organisation took much longer to regenerate, and how divisions needed to rest between battles. Both of these I think should be implemented in HoI4.

But apart from that... I prefer HoI4, especially when it keeps maturing with every update into a more serious and immersive WWII grand strategy game. The production system is a lot deeper and more rewarding. You're not just telling the game to build you an infantry division, you're putting together companies and battalions and building infantry equipment, trucks, and cannons for them. I love the ship designer for the same reason, and I can see that idea being expanded to planes, letting you start with empty fuselages of various sizes and shaping them into everything from naval bombers to interceptors to reconnaissance aircraft or maybe even transports. The supply system is lacking, but an improved one is on the roadmap. I also prefer the resistance system in HoI4 over the micro-fest and whack-a-mole partisan uprisings in HoI3. Likewise, the battle planner has some serious issues, and the naval system takes some studying to understand, but both have serious potential, and the naval game in HoI4 feels a lot more immersive and rewarding.

As for the battle planner, the day might just come when the fronts are mostly static and you have to draw up (and hopefully name) operations, stockpile supplies, wait for your armies to prepare (this we already have, it just needs to actually be impactful), and then execute the battle plan and have your divisions fight until they're exhausted or the front stagnates, at which point you need to end the operation and have your divisions assume defensive positions.

The gripe that wargamers need to be able to manually control divisions to get that WWII feel is also an odd one, since commanders-in-chief of large nations like Germany or the USA to my knowledge seldom micro-managed individual divisions in the first place ;) . To me, having to draw up a good battle plan and then hand over control to your subordinates, intervening only when you have to, or to exploit breakthroughs and whatnot, is both more challenging and more immersive.

My currently biggest gripe with HoI4's design choices is the often unrealistic and downright silly national focus paths. I ended up loving the idea of exploring all sorts of alternate history scenarios in HoI4, but I wish they would have gone with more realistic ahistorical paths instead of the generic democratic, communist, facist, or monarchist paths, which feel really shoehorned in a lot of cases (the same goes for the fictional flags and many of their choices of ahistorical leaders). Oh, and the tech tree and variant designer both feel a bit gamey and ahistorical. I'd love it if they implemented Victoria 2's inventions system, letting you research major techs the way you do now, for then to have the minor improvements like homing torpedoes, better fire drills, self-sealing fuel tanks, and so on be discovered automatically over time.

As for BlackICE? I haven't found myself getting into BI for HoI4, despite numerous attempts. I admire and respect the work the devs do, but it just becomes too much for me. Expanding on what you could produce worked fine for me in HoI3, when you had pretty limited options as you were just putting together brigades into divisions, and all the production of rifles, artillery, trucks, etc. was abstracted, but letting the BI team loose on HoI4's production system just led to way too many items to produce for my liking. I appreciate the ideas, such as producing uniforms and even choosing whether or not to make winter uniforms, for example, but in practice it's just way too much work. Same goes for all the models of planes, tanks, et cetera they throw at you. Also, the complexity of the system means I might end up producing way too much or too little of some item or another, only to realise this years later when it's too late to make changes. I could look up strategy guides and whatnot, but the whole point of strategy games for me is to come up with my own, well, strategy, not have some backseat driver tell me exactly what I need to do.
 
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elektrizikekswerk

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Is this allowed here? Should not the mods do something about him?
No it isn't. From https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/help/terms/
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Mods won't notice everything on themselves. It's like IRL: If noone complains nothing will change ;)
And in this case the mods most likely won't check whether or not the linked content is the (intellectual) property of the poster.

Just hit the "Report" button below the post and mods _will_ notice and take action. :)
 
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coffeelingfine

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I like HOI3 but can't stand Black Ice for either game. Just makes the games into a chore.

And to be honest I don't get why some people seem to need Black Ice in order to enjoy it. It should be able to stand on its own.
 

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I like HOI3 but can't stand Black Ice for either game. Just makes the games into a chore.

And to be honest I don't get why some people seem to need Black Ice in order to enjoy it. It should be able to stand on its own.
Although I agree about Black Ice it can be too overwhelming but I play vanilla also it is too bland in things of historical flavor as well as technologies, approaches and events that is why I prefer something intermediate between both such as road 56
 
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Miloviech

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Mar 11, 2018
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black ice is, to me, a subtraction from the game. It takes away almost all alt history options for everyone, it punishes minors for existing even more then the base game to the point playing minors isn't even fun anymore (UMC does it way better imho), it's a confusing mess that, despite having defensive divisions the AI just melts right through your divisions like butter with no real explanation other then "30 width is advised". Black Ice is even more complicated then everyone claims hoi4 to be. It might as well be an entirely different game on the same engine for all it changes to it. Even hoi3 was better in that regard and more enjoyable though less flavorful.
 
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