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unmerged(29298)

Generalissimo
May 18, 2004
659
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It would be nice a small adjustment in the battle math,

when there is a good unit with a good commander in an excelente defensive point,

it shouldn´t matter that the enemy has 100 divisions vs 1.

the unit should loose, of course, but it should cause a good amount of casualties at enemy.

actually, when the diference in power is soo high, the defending unit suffers more casualties,

in a real situation if you have an elite artillery unit, entreched in a mountain, and are attacked by hundreds of obsolete infantery,

the infantery will win, but they will loose a good amount of men before.

now, it´s calculated as if the 100 divisions were in position to open fire, and what must be happening in the actual battle,

is that they will send wave after wave until winning.


the actual math is 10 division vs 1, the 10 fires against 1,
and maybe, there is only space for 4 against 1, and the other units should
have to wait a next wave.

it´s not going to change the game evolution too much, but if you have excelent tiger tanks entreched behind a river, at least they will destroy
peer each tiger one old enemy tank.

i don´t know if it is clear.

-------------
the same with air attacks, now you must attack with 6 air units, one or two isolated divisions to obtain the best results and less casualties,


if you attack with 6 air units a group of 20 divisions you will loose many tactical units...

but i think that in an actual air attack, no matter how many units are there in the province, the tactical attack is at low altitue,

so if the planes are attacking a 15.000 men division at 100 meters high, the others 19 divisions i think couldn´t do much from their bases.

----------------------------------

the whole point is that in the battle math are using a lot of the maritim battle theory, of ten ships fighting against one,

but sometimes in war, you cannot use the whole firmepower of all the units in the area.

i see the casualties rates, unbalanced, the most important thing it the amount of units in the stack.

ie.

1 elite vs 40 very poor divisions

the elite will be destroyed and on the other side will loose a little bit of one division.

i would like a result like

the elite division destroyed and three poor division destroyed too.
 
Mar 17, 2004
639
0
OK I see your point.

Not sure I 100% agree but do agree with some of what you say particularly about having too many units on attack in one provence.

Math Guy is probably the best person for this one. Unfortunately I think he is busy BETA TESTING HoI 2?

Suggest that you repost this in the HoI 2 Forum. Argument just as valid there - probably more so as that game (and the battle maths) is still being written. :)


Try Posting to this thread:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2874709#post2874709

That covers casualty rates and has a lot of Historical info for you too from the expert on such things: T.N. Dupuy.


edited by gzav - Please read the Double posts sticky.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cdat

Rube 001
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Mar 1, 2004
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What about Mother Nature and luck? Chance? If your commander has a migraine that day, his performance will be different. Way to many ifs, ifs, ifs. At the start of Desert Storm, American casulties were expected to be in the thousands. Predicted by 'experts'. ;)
 
Mar 17, 2004
639
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cdat said:
What about Mother Nature and luck? Chance? If your commander has a migraine that day, his performance will be different. Way to many ifs, ifs, ifs. At the start of Desert Storm, American casulties were expected to be in the thousands. Predicted by 'experts'. ;)

That is a very good point. T.N. Dupuy's model does not account for (Modern) Air Power properly IMHO. In fact Dupuy's model largly ignores Air Power for some reasons he gives. Also, I think modern Body Armor makes a very big difference to the figures (surprises me actually).

I think that a lot of 'models' in use (like Dupuy's) are based around last large data set which in most cases is WWII. I don't know if a similar work was done in Vietnam (assume it was - anyone have a reference?) or for UN missions in Bosina, Somalia etc.
 

unmerged(23946)

The Red Baron
Dec 25, 2003
1.703
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I think that something needs to be changed with how damage is calculated, but are you sure that 100 divisions attacking 1 division should suffer more casualties than 10 divisions attacking 1 division? I don't see the logic here, I mean if only 4 of the attacker's divisions can attack the 1 division at a time, how does the 100 stack of divisions lose more men?
 

orko

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May 27, 2003
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I kind of like the idea. It could be reinforced by the Thermopolai example (? on my spelling).

However, I would be the first one to admit that if I sent 10 Art/Marines against 2 Vanilla Inf and they did serious damage to me, I'd be kicking my cat.
 

unmerged(29298)

Generalissimo
May 18, 2004
659
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Lord Warchaser said:
I think that something needs to be changed with how damage is calculated, but are you sure that 100 divisions attacking 1 division should suffer more casualties than 10 divisions attacking 1 division? I don't see the logic here, I mean if only 4 of the attacker's divisions can attack the 1 division at a time, how does the 100 stack of divisions lose more men?

No, maybe i didn´t express well.

when more divisios you have the better, 100 vs 1, better thatn 10 vs 1, or at least equal.
depending on how many units you can use at the same time.
if you have plenty of long range artillery better, if you have only infantry,
maybe you can attack with 10 divisions at the same time only,

depending on the border size or conditions.