Bastards need a rework

[Caspian Mortis]

If you find out through the intrigue focus that someone is a bastard and actually not the child of their assumed father, it should actually remove their previously assumed dynasty and create a new one, as they can no longer claim to be part of their dynasty. All the descendants of this bastard should also be removed from the dynasty if neither of their parents is actually biologically descended from the dynasty's founder.

It should also give you a reason to revoke ALL their titles as they can't lay claim to them if they're not their father's child.

Why isn't this already in the game?

 

[Rubidium]

You say that he's a bastard, he says he's not, who can say who is right? They didn't have paternity testing then. The evidence would be bad for him politically, which is why it is blackmail material, but it's not like you can conclusively prove anything. Accusations of illegitimacy were thrown around regularly for political reasons (half the claimants in the Wars of the Roses were accused of bastardry at one point or another); to everyone else it's just hardball politics as usual.

Indeed, the presumption was that if the wife's husband didn't actively deny his paternity, the child was legally considered the son.

 

[Xenrek]

You say that he's a bastard, he says he's not, who can say who is right? They didn't have paternity testing then. The evidence would be bad for him politically, which is why it is blackmail material, but it's not like you can conclusively prove anything. Accusations of illegitimacy were thrown around regularly for political reasons (half the claimants in the Wars of the Roses were accused of bastardry at one point or another); to everyone else it's just hardball politics as usual.

Indeed, the presumption was that if the wife's husband didn't actively deny his paternity, the child was legally considered the son.

More or less. And even if their was "evidence", depending on circumstances, it would often be dismissed by anyone in a position to do something with it, because they would rather have the stability and predictability, usually to accommodate their own plotting.

Only real time youd have success/support, was if it furthered someone else's goals to depose the king, otherwise you rocking the boat would make you a target.

 

[Crangiopharengoma]

One change that might be a goer is to allow weak claims to be pressed against legitimised bastards?

 

[Wakizashi]

To be honest, even when my guy suspects that the kid might be a bastard, I generally don't even look into it or attempt to "prove" it. Sometimes it's better to just roll with it, educate him at court and see what happens. Better to have a good-trait bastard who can inherit than a load of family feuds resulting from bastardy claims.

 

[makaramus]

I love the idea of it being reason to push a claim because you discovered he is a bastard son actually
other than that nah... it wont be enought to take him down from throne or someting it shall only shake his legimicy for a while wich will be only a problem if he is weak

 

[Caspian Mortis]

The guy I was talking about wasn't actually on the throne. I was the High Queen of Britannia and discovered on of my kinsmen was in fact a bastard and not descended from my dynasty's founder (by the intrigue focus). I mean if I was a lowly count or duke this might be different, but I am the monarch!

If I find evidence that this guy is a bastard not of my dynasty it should actually do something as I am the top liege of everyone in my realm

 

[Xenrek]

The guy I was talking about wasn't actually on the throne. I was the High Queen of Britannia and discovered on of my kinsmen was in fact a bastard and not descended from my dynasty's founder (by the intrigue focus). I mean if I was a lowly count or duke this might be different, but I am the monarch!

If I find evidence that this guy is a bastard not of my dynasty it should actually do something as I am the top liege of everyone in my realm

eh, i mean on one hand i can kind of see that; on the other hand, bringing up legitimacy and bastardry of your own dynasty would often be a no no, because then it prompts people to just start questioning the validity of *everyone* in that line of succession.

that plus, depending on the start date, historically the importance/focus on bastardy was fairly different

 

[Saphire]

To be honest, even when my guy suspects that the kid might be a bastard, I generally don't even look into it or attempt to "prove" it. Sometimes it's better to just roll with it, educate him at court and see what happens. Better to have a good-trait bastard who can inherit than a load of family feuds resulting from bastardy claims.

For me, it feels a bit more personal. You know when you have a super character that has done the most amazing things, even gotten a bloodline for them? I want him to be forever represented in my dynasty's main line. That is why if I get the bastardy event, and happen not to catch anyone, I simply marry in a "cousin"- if the children are inbred, thats good, if they aren't thats fine too.

 

[afrodius]

This is ck2 so if you don't like those bastards in your family, simply murder them all.

 

[Bulldog773]

OP, I understand completely what you are saying but on the same side it can't be proven. To everyone at court Its just the queen plotting. Like someone else said this was just everyday politics during the time period. You could always revoke title and throw them in prison forever

 

[Caspian Mortis]

I am currently modding an event that will remedy this and will probably release it.

The event occurs when you discover that someone is in fact a bastard. You will have the option of openly proclaiming the person a bastard. This will make this person and all their descendants that are in fact not known to be descended from the dynasty's founder be removed from their dynasty and given a new name named after their mother. The following will happen:

• The bastard is named illegitimate and all their titles can be revoked. (this I don't know how to do, does anyone know how to make unlimited revocations from an opinion modifier?)
• The biological father is revealed and set to the known father.
• The bastard and their descendants lose a huge amount of prestige.
• The mother if still alive is named a traitor for committing adultery.
• The father if still alive is named a traitor for committing adultery.

Any ideas for anything else for the event?

 

[Bulldog773]

THAT sounds like an excellent mod
Good Luck

 

[Tryvenyal]

The guy I was talking about wasn't actually on the throne. I was the High Queen of Britannia and discovered on of my kinsmen was in fact a bastard and not descended from my dynasty's founder (by the intrigue focus). I mean if I was a lowly count or duke this might be different, but I am the monarch!

If I find evidence that this guy is a bastard not of my dynasty it should actually do something as I am the top liege of everyone in my realm

I like the idea of as a head of a dynasy beeing able to take action against my kin, on good and bad. Beeing able to expell him, from the dynasty - IE effectively de-branch him - should be one expensive such action! Same functionality could be the foundation of for cadet branches - a frequent requested feature.

I once created a suggestion-thread for a thin secondary(that does not consume the society spot) society for the dynasty. Where "power" and "currency" is very limited to dynasty members and comparing to primary societies are weak. I would surely love such a thing!

 

[A_Dane]

In my ongoing game, I had a situation where it would have been really nice. My oldest son was quite clearly a bastard, no denying it. How did I know? Well, my character had celtic graphical culture, my wife had norse, and she produced a son with german graphical culture. Sure as heck aint mine. (and she was later caught giving birth to another one, whose father turned out to be some german count). In the end I couldn't prove it, but since he was the independent king of Sweden after his mother had an unfortunate.. accident, I pressed his older sisters claim, imprisoned him, and sent him off to church... kinda annoying I had to do it like that..

 

[Greene]

No, you finding out he is a bastard via intrigue doesn’t make him legally a bastard. Look at Ned accusing Jeoffrey for example. In front of the law he is still his father’s son and legitimate heir.