Bari Greek in later starts? You mean Lecce?

[Ciccillo Rre]

I notice that with the most recent update, the province of Bari is set as Greek-cultured. Is this WAD?

While the historical city center of the city was heavily influenced by Byzantine Greeks, the city itself and its surroundings were Langobardia (that is, romano-barbaric land) to the eyes of the Greeks, as per the Theme's name.

By contrast, the southern part of present-day Apulia, represented in-game as the county of Lecce, still hosts nowadays a linguistic minority that speaks Grico, that is, an independent heir of the Byzantine Greek language (link). Hence it would make more sense to have Lecce Greek rather than Bari.

P.S. The county of Chalcidike in northern Greece is unselectable and independent in all game starts. This is so self-evident a bug I'm not even bothering reporting it.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I notice that with the most recent update, the province of Bari is set as Greek-cultured. Is this WAD?

While the historical city center of the city was heavily influenced by Byzantine Greeks, the city itself and its surroundings were Langobardia (that is, romano-barbaric land) to the eyes of the Greeks, as per the Theme's name.

By contrast, the southern part of present-day Apulia, represented in-game as the county of Lecce, still hosts nowadays a linguistic minority that speaks Grico, that is, an independent heir of the Byzantine Greek language (link). Hence it would make more sense to have Lecce Greek rather than Bari.

P.S. The county of Chalcidike in northern Greece is unselectable and independent in all game starts. This is so self-evident a bug I'm not even bothering reporting it.

Bari Itself and it’s immediate surroundings were famously populated by a loyal Byzantine Greek Population even When Manuel Komnenos launched his reconquest Of Sicily, their is numerous times were the Greeks of the City opened it to the Byzantines.

 

[jumbi]

P.S. The county of Chalcidike in northern Greece is unselectable and independent in all game starts. This is so self-evident a bug I'm not even bothering reporting it.

While this bug has already been reported, it always pays to check if one has been rather than assuming someone else will see it and report it.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Bari Itself and it’s immediate surroundings were famously populated by a loyal Byzantine Greek Population even When Manuel Komnenos launched his reconquest Of Sicily, their is numerous times were the Greeks of the City opened it to the Byzantines.

Thank you for the history lesson! I happen to originate from the area you know. From that to have the full province Greek all the way to 1337 is a very long shot. The countryside, represented in-game by say the historically important barony of Conversano, was very much "Langobard". But hey, the Bizantinophiles was to have some representation of the last Roman redoubt in Italy, so go ahead. I am sympathetic with the issue by the way, thing is, the port of Bari and a few trading families are not the region as a whole.

My main point anyways is, if you want to represent the enduring Greek influence in Apulia go ahead (I am still sympathetic). But at least be consistent! If you want to have Bari, have Lecce as well, there are still "Greeks" there nowadays.

While this bug has already been reported, it always pays to check if one has been rather than assuming someone else will see it and report it.

Thank you for your condescending, moralizing and paternalistic advice.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Thank you for the history lesson! I happen to originate from the area you know. From that to have the full province Greek all the way to 1337 is a very long shot. The countryside, represented in-game by say the historically important barony of Conversano, was very much "Langobard". But hey, the Bizantinophiles was to have some representation of the last Roman redoubt in Italy, so go ahead. I am sympathetic with the issue by the way, thing is, the port of Bari and a few trading families are not the region as a whole.

My main point anyways is, if you want to represent the enduring Greek influence in Apulia go ahead (I am still sympathetic). But at least be consistent! If you want to have Bari, have Lecce as well, there are still "Greeks" there nowadays.


Thank you for your condescending, moralizing and paternalistic advice.

Ciccillo I’m not trying to insult you buts it’s a historical fact Bari was Mainly Greek into the Eu4 Period. The County Of Apulia and northern half of the county are where the Lombards lived. Every time a non Byzantine realm took it the Greeks of the city would betray them to the Byzantines notably when the Lombards rebel led against the governor Basil and when The Armies Of Manuel Arrived in 1153. The Area would receive a further influx of Greeks after the Fall of Constantinople. It has nothing to do with the Byzantine Empire. By 1337 their was still a Greek Majority that could apply to Lecce to. And being from the area is not an argument.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Ciccillo I’m not trying to insult you buts it’s a historical fact Bari was Mainly Greek into the Eu4 Period. The County Of Apulia and northern half of the county are where the Lombards lived. Every time a non Byzantine realm took it the Greeks of the city would betray them to the Byzantines notably when the Lombards rebel led against the governor Basil and when The Armies Of Manuel Arrived in 1153. The Area would receive a further influx of Greeks after the Fall of Constantinople. It has nothing to do with the Byzantine Empire. By 1337 their was still a Greek Majority that could apply to Lecce to.

That argument is hardly stretched post 1200. In my home region we have very limited evidence of persistent Greek culture - although that may be due to the influence of the Church. Where I do agree is that Lecce can be made comfortably Greek. So I reiterate my point: either make Bari Italian post 1200, or make Lecce Greek as well throughout.

 

[Byzantium2000]

That argument is hardly stretched post 1200. In my home region we have very limited evidence of persistent Greek culture - although that may be due to the influence of the Church. Where I do agree is that Lecce can be made comfortably Greek. So I reiterate my point: either make Bari Italian post 1200, or make Lecce Greek as well throughout.

Those are both fair options I can agree with.

 

[jumbi]

Thank you for your condescending, moralizing and paternalistic advice.

No condescension was intended. Having had a number of bugs go unreported for long periods of time in projects that I've worked on due to people thinking they had been, it's always a nice situation to avoid for everyone involved

 

[Hastu Neon]

I’m from the area too, and studied quite a lot the history of Norman and then Swabian/Hohenstaufen conquest of Southern Italy. In my opinion, it would be fair to have both Bari and Lecce Greek cultured in 1066 and previous start dates (Bari, the city only, was still in Byzantine hands until 1071).

But in real life both were quickly Latinized/made Catholic soon after. I would say that by Henry VI / Fedrerick II time the majority of population in Apulia was Catholic and a mix of Latin/Norman/Lombard (“Italian”?) with relevant Greek, Jewish and Muslim (Lucera colony) minorities.

 

[knppel]

Chalkidike has been reported.
In regards of the matter at hand I am inclined to agree with the op- no matter which culture it is given, but splitting the boot's heel culturally makes no sense for sure.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I’m from the area too, and studied quite a lot the history of Norman and then Swabian/Hohenstaufen conquest of Southern Italy. In my opinion, it would be fair to have both Bari and Lecce Greek cultured in 1066 and previous start dates (Bari, the city only, was still in Byzantine hands until 1071).

But in real life both were quickly Latinized/made Catholic soon after. I would say that by Henry VI / Fedrerick II time the majority of population in Apulia was Catholic and a mix of Latin/Norman/Lombard (“Italian”?) with relevant Greek, Jewish and Muslim (Lucera colony) minorities.

Heck In 1066 both the counties of Bari and Lecce were in Byzantine Hands having just been retaken from the Normans, Both were already Catholic since 1030 and had been switched to Rome’s Control right before the Split so really Byzantine Catholics but the Greek Population was large enough to basically surrender the entire region to Manuel Komnenos in 1150 so Both Being Greek Catholic untill 1200 is fair. Naples is the county thats Greek for far too long.

 

[klopkr]

Province culture and religion have usually represented the local nobility not the peasants toiling in the mod in this game.

Plus it's more interesting this way.

 

[knppel]

Province culture and religion have usually represented the local nobility not the peasants toiling in the mod in this game.

Plus it's more interesting this way.

And here I was thinking the nobility was made up out of all these characters with traits and stats that enables stuff like a Grek ruling over Italians or vice versa even if they might face peasant revolts when holding counties of wrong culture WAIT A SECOND

 

[klopkr]

And here I was thinking the nobility was made up out of all these characters with traits and stats that enables stuff like a Grek ruling over Italians or vice versa even if they might face peasant revolts when holding counties of wrong culture WAIT A SECOND

It's the minor nobility, I.E. the people below barons.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I’m from the area too, and studied quite a lot the history of Norman and then Swabian/Hohenstaufen conquest of Southern Italy. In my opinion, it would be fair to have both Bari and Lecce Greek cultured in 1066 and previous start dates (Bari, the city only, was still in Byzantine hands until 1071).

But in real life both were quickly Latinized/made Catholic soon after. I would say that by Henry VI / Fedrerick II time the majority of population in Apulia was Catholic and a mix of Latin/Norman/Lombard (“Italian”?) with relevant Greek, Jewish and Muslim (Lucera colony) minorities.

This. Thank you compare.