Barbarossa gets grindy

[Tisifoni12]

HOI4 seems much improved.

Have been playing as Germany from a 1936 start, trying to more or less follow a historical timetable.

Barbarossa seems to get bogged down fairly quickly. June to December and I'm as far as Kiev, still, stuck in the Pripet Marshes and have 'liberated' half of Latvia. 120 infantry divisions, 12 panzer divisions, 4 PzGren divisions, 10 Slovak divisions, about 1,000 CAS and Tac. Need to replace losses of tanks, etc.

 

[Praetori]

HOI4 seems much improved.

Have been playing as Germany from a 1936 start, trying to more or less follow a historical timetable.

Barbarossa seems to get bogged down fairly quickly. June to December and I'm as far as Kiev, still, stuck in the Pripet Marshes and have 'liberated' half of Latvia. 120 infantry divisions, 12 panzer divisions, 4 PzGren divisions, 10 Slovak divisions, about 1,000 CAS and Tac. Need to replace losses of tanks, etc.

Practice makes perfect. As human Germany it's quite easy to steamroll the USSR in 1941 with a historical approach (and no usage of exploits) on the hardest settings, with some practice. 1000 CAS/TAC is a bit on the low end. You should be able to squeeze in about 1000 aircraft in each East Front Air-zone as Germany (30/70 fighter/CAS) or you'll need to push in only one air-zone at a a time (maximum effort) or suffer equipment losses accordingly.

 

[foxMiD]

HOI4 seems much improved.

Have been playing as Germany from a 1936 start, trying to more or less follow a historical timetable.

Barbarossa seems to get bogged down fairly quickly. June to December and I'm as far as Kiev, still, stuck in the Pripet Marshes and have 'liberated' half of Latvia. 120 infantry divisions, 12 panzer divisions, 4 PzGren divisions, 10 Slovak divisions, about 1,000 CAS and Tac. Need to replace losses of tanks, etc.

First, I do play the historical mode. Still, I don't follow it entirely and like to attack the USSR late 1938, so my play may not be entirely suited for you. But the very basics should be the same & I do know my WW2 history.
Since you too know WW2 history, you should also know, that infantry is not the way to conquer the USSR! Tanks are pure gold here. So much open space! If you start at 1941. Since I do start in 1938, I don't know the optimal number, but I'll take a guess & say at least tank 40 div. They cut through their lines nicely. However, it is vital, that you replace the gaps your tanks leaves and have at least 20 div. in defensive mode behind the the earstern front lines.
Still, the Soviet infrastructure is unbelievable bad! They suffer quite a bit from attrition, while you, with your well build infrastructure in Poland don't. I like to simply hold my front lines. They'll take massive casualties due to this.
Surplus of resources is not a bad idea. You can get a LOT of Russian MICs, capturing Kiev & Minsk. Not having a surplus, makes them a waste. The German navy is much stronger, than the Russian. Still, they're pretty good at cutting off my oil supplies from Venezuela, which some times even breaks my trade ties! The US wont sell you any, no matter how much PP you've spend increasing your relationship. Once you have control in the Baltic Sea, you can convoy to Leningrad. Attack from the south west with tanks & you've opened up a whole new front.
Genuine CAS & small fighters are quite bad here. Small fighters are prim. for home defence. Heavy fighters & tac. bombers are your best mates here, small fighters & WW2 CAS are for France & Britain. Oh, and don't do night raids, even with air superiority.

 

[Krask]

Naturally the earlier you invade the USSR the less time you've had to use your human advantages to maximise your build up.

If you actually go historical your templates and equipment stockpiles etc make a mockery of your ai opponents.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Is it possible to go around the Pripet Marshes without the Soviets using it to break the center of the local front?

SR
p.s.

Spoiler

I am playing France, enforced the Versailles Treaty and conquered Germany in October 1936. Now it looks like Soviets are going to go after French guaranteed Poland or Romania, my Entente ally, either option will be pulling me in against them of course (if I'm reading the Soviet focus tree correctly).

Surprisingly, it seems I'm in a similar position to Germany but with a different capital (and a neutral Britain, thankfully). I have a plan in place to strike deep but have no clue how the fight will go. I completely forgot about the terrain in my way.

 

[GPounda]

So, exactly how many divisions are recommended to invade Russia?

I'm struggling getting enough fully/properly equipped divisions in time to take advantage of the lack of unity and organization the Soviets face due to the Officer purge and Trotsky assassination.

@foxMiD I find it interesting, in a good way, that you would prefer the Me-110 and He-111 over the Bf-109 and Ju-87 for your air force. Would you mind expanding on that for me?

 

[Oahkoah]

You should be aiming for quite a few overrruns early on, make sure your panzers are actually doing deep spearheads and not just joining the line. I like to max out speed using advisors and design companies, and I see quite a few nice overruns.

 

[Aodhan_]

So, exactly how many divisions are recommended to invade Russia?

I'm struggling getting enough fully/properly equipped divisions in time to take advantage of the lack of unity and organization the Soviets face due to the Officer purge and Trotsky assassination.

I normally start my invasion of Soviet Union in early 1940, with 60 Infantry divisions (20 width) and atleast 15 lgt Pz divisions. And as I advance into the Soviet Union I like to be increasing the infantry up to about 120 divisions(still 20 width) as I approach Moscow, and I also like to have the pz divisions increased to about 24 divisions (not always the case though ).

Just remember your supply issues when advancing into Russia they don't have a great road network, so more divisions is not always better.

 

[Galithor]

Invading in 1938 gives the Soviets a bigger advantage. They start the game with a much larger army than Germany. The german's primary advantage over the USSR comes from taking over most of Europe, and exploiting that industrial advantage for a year+ to build up an overwhelming invasion force.

It's a whooooole lot easier to maul the Soviets in 1941 than 1938. Of course, it can be done in 1938, it just takes more work.

And you absolutely can win with nothing but infantry on the ground. You can beat the AI without a single piece of artillery or armor in any of your divisions. Spend all the rest of those military factories on CAS and fighters. Take over the skies, and watch your thousands of bombers win every ground battle for you. The infantry's only job is to attack and lock enemy divisions into battle so they can be bombed into oblivion. This works both ways. Germany or the Soviets could win this way. In fact the soviets are particularly suited for it due to their larger manpower pool and head-start on the mass assault doctrine tree. The Germans, on the other hand, have better perks for their CAS bombers.

When people recommend a number of divisions, keep in mind that divisions can be wildly different in design. 100 40-width divisions is the same number of frontline troops as 400 10-width divisions, for example. It's possibly easier to express the army you'd need in terms of manpower fielded.

 

[Gyrvendal]

Invading in 1938 gives the Soviets a bigger advantage. They start the game with a much larger army than Germany. The german's primary advantage over the USSR comes from taking over most of Europe, and exploiting that industrial advantage for a year+ to build up an overwhelming invasion force.

It's a whooooole lot easier to maul the Soviets in 1941 than 1938. Of course, it can be done in 1938, it just takes more work.

Not true, if you attack in 38 they'll have the huge debuff from the great purge so you can roll over them pretty easily. Still it feels like cheating to do it this way and it gives you a too short game for my taste. I like the historical buildup, it's the most fun part of the game. Rushing into war ASAP isn't that fun.

 

[Russian Bias lmao]

It depends. If your main tactic is to make a frontline and just push, then you're gonna either grind yourself out of manpower/equipment/both, or win after a 2-3 year push.

If your tactic is to make really good tank divisions (ex. 44width heavy+heavySPG+mech+mot) and you keep pincer encircling 20-40 soviet divisions at a time, you'll be done with them in 4-5 months.

Remember, Barbarossa did really well at the start because of the constant encirclements.

 

[Tisifoni12]

At the beginning of Barbarossa the Germans didn't have many/any heavy tanks, they had Pz III and Pz IV.

Spot or create gaps, exploit and use speed.

 

[Duke_Dave]

Well that is good that it gets more grindy.
Strength of Germany is its tanks, use them to cut off enemy strong points and avoid the marshes, I actually managed to just cut them off. Motorized with aaa, anti-tanks and support arty are a cheap and fast unit that you also should utilize. Usually I focus my effort on Ukraine and the Baltics, conquering Industrial hubs and then pushing onto Moscow in a pincer movement. While a detachment moves further towards Baku. I also get Turkey into the Axis (except when I want to make it hardeR) making the route to Baku much shorter.

 

[hkrommel]

Having air superiority makes a huge difference I've noticed. I usually go for 3 army groups with 3 air armies to cover them. These are, naturally, north, center, and south, each with 1,000 fighters, 500 CAS, and 500 TAC. Obviously once you get into the poorer infrastructure of the USSR itself you'll have issues with air mission efficiency, but the sheet number of overruns you'll get off the bat with air superiority will break the Soviets at least initially. When the AI gets better hopefully it will be more resilient, but after the first couple of months I've found they can only resist strongly against one army group while the other two are more or less unopposed, or weakly across all three.

 

[Corner79]

Here is a question that piggy backs of this thread, is it better to spend 250 on von mannstein and get 10% off mobile warfare or is it better to go with Guderian with only 7% off MW but additional 10% Panzer speed? I always debate this playing Germany.

When I do pick Guderian, i also grab Henschel for Panzer research which also grants a Panzer speed bonus (if i remember correctly)

I am curious to know some thoughts on this, as speed is so important for Barbarosa and other fronts

 

[Rommel41]

I like to wait until 42 or 43.

By then, the Soviet recruitment has outpaced it's industries, and after a few months of bitter fighting, your Panzers can conduct deep, and surgical encirclements of hundreds of under-equipped commie divisions.

I've dominated the skies since my first attempt at Germany taught me that if you don't control the skies, you lose the war. Always 3k+ 1936 fighters and production of 1940 models with all my air exp and 100% reliability by kickoff in '39. I'll have 6k by Barbarossa and total elimination of the Red Air Force by the third month.

But it never takes more than a year, year and a half. Sometimes as little as 5 months...

I've been exclusively using the front system, with minimal interference.

Rotten structure indeed.

 

[hkrommel]

Here is a question that piggy backs of this thread, is it better to spend 250 on von mannstein and get 10% off mobile warfare or is it better to go with Guderian with only 7% off MW but additional 10% Panzer speed? I always debate this playing Germany.

When I do pick Guderian, i also grab Henschel for Panzer research which also grants a Panzer speed bonus (if i remember correctly)

I am curious to know some thoughts on this, as speed is so important for Barbarosa and other fronts

Guderian. Combine that bonus with Henschel and air superiority and you'll overrun vast portions of the Soviet army.

 

[Aodhan_]

Here is a question that piggy backs of this thread, is it better to spend 250 on von mannstein and get 10% off mobile warfare or is it better to go with Guderian with only 7% off MW but additional 10% Panzer speed? I always debate this playing Germany.

When I do pick Guderian, i also grab Henschel for Panzer research which also grants a Panzer speed bonus (if i remember correctly)

I am curious to know some thoughts on this, as speed is so important for Barbarosa and other fronts

Guderian most definitely and also Von Brauchitsch as Chief of Army speed is Panzer greatest attribute, combined with Henschel and mobile warfare can turn your pz divisions into real speed machines . So much so that using lgt pz divisions feels like cheating .

 

[LiberiusX]

@foxMiD I find it interesting, in a good way, that you would prefer the Me-110 and He-111 over the Bf-109 and Ju-87 for your air force. Would you mind expanding on that for me?

Probably for the added range. The Russian Air zones are enormous compared to central and Western European zones. It's hard to get good efficiency with CAS and fighters in 1941, unless you plan ahead and specifically dump your xp into range extensions.