Barbarossa DLC: a case for a map and railroad overhaul at the example of Fall Blau (Stalingrad)

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Zilcho

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I would like to see trains as a land equivalent of convoys. Right now when germany has Romania on their side and conquers the Caucasus you can't really cut them off from their oil supply even when having air dominance over all of europe. I would like to see trains that I build like convoys that can be destroyed by air raids, partisans and encirclement.

Implemented the right way this could be really nice, adding bottlenecks in the network, extra visual eye candy as well as become targets to attack as well as defend. Key-points in the railnetwork would become vital to attack and defend and hopefully also used to place some restrictions on current strategic redoplys.
 
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Duke_Dave

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If land convoys are implemented, they shouldn't be limited to trains. Any large shipment (e.g. stuff delivered via the Burma Road) should qualify as a land convoy.
I have mild problems with that, given how much more a train could transport compared to trucks back then. I think this would be better modeled by air superiority giving a negative effect on supply.
 
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Naggafin

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Hey all, so as far as infrastructure system improvements in Barbarossa, I had some ideas that seem pretty appealing to me earlier today. Here are my thoughts:

We know that road and railroad infrastructures are both incredibly important from a logistical perspective, however the two different types of infrastructure actually have some fundamentally different properties that I think justifies classifying them separately in-game. Examples below.

Road Infrastructure (basically what infrastructure in-game is now, with some differences)
*State building
*Affects resource production, building speed, etc... Generally has all the properties general infrastructure has in-game now
*Can be built anywhere
*Expensive (with expense scaling on aggregate terrain type)
*Affects unit speed and strategic redeployment speed when using roads instead of railroads, where high values mean quicker movement
*Affects unit attrition where high values reduce vehicular attrition. This should be a mechanic. If, hypthetically, the Soviet Union had an autobahn like Germany did, it isn't unlikely that German equipment losses due to breakdown would've been far less severe because the terrain conditions wouldn't have mattered as much as they did with paved roads.
*Perhaps the number of trucks in reserve could affect the efficiency of road infrastructure?

Railroad Infrastructure
*Provincial building
*Does not affect resource production or building speed
*Cannot be built anywhere, only in specific lines between cities (as they would act as railroad hubs), and only as a whole line (to prevent having to micro-build, which would be annoying)
*Inexpensive
*Affects strategic redeployment movements (i.e. strategic redeployments follow rail lines if it would be faster than redeployment by road)
*Ignores or mitigates the negative effects from multiple poor supply distances between rail hubs (cities), which act as distribution centers (i.e. say your units were several supply distances away from a decent zone, and the zones they passed, and are in, are poor; railways could "bypass" the poor zones and make the effect less detrimental and shifting supply distribution to cities, making supplies disperse from there, rather than always the capital)
*Maximum volume of throughput, depending on railway level; whole line must be upgraded to increase railroad level, not just specific points (has the effect of making longer rail lines more expensive)
*Rendered on map
*Allows distant resources to be used (i.e. in the case of Stalingrad, it was important as far as oil from Baku was transported; if a player manages to capture Stalingrad, and there are no completely connected level 7, or other minimum, road infrastructures or alternative railway routes to the capital, it should also cut off oil supply--specific example)
*Can be damaged and repaired at very specific points (as in province level specific), which will have an effect on strategic redeployments, supply of resources, and railway supply transfer (retreating troops could demolish the railway lines to disrupt advancing troops' logistics, which advancing troops would need to repair), and damage will be indicated on the map
*Railroads have to be in contiguous working order across the whole line between two rail hubs (cities) to be effective or used at all (are you going to unload a train in the middle of a forest because the tracks are broken?)
*Perhaps trains could be added as a production item to utilize the railways? They were, after all, quite an investment. Just a thought.

An overhaul like the above would tend to have the effect of making infrastructure much more visible, in terms of actually seeing, as well as thinking about and managing, in game. In real life, lack of infrastructure was a major problem for the Germans in WW2, and currently I don't think HoI4 does a very good job of simulating that. I understand Paradox's mentality of abstraction, and agree with it in most respects, but there is a point where one can over-abstract and thus lose critical details that should be important. This is one of them.
 
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seattle

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Road Infrastructure (basically what infrastructure in-game is now, with some differences)
*Perhaps the number of trucks in reserve could affect the efficiency of road infrastructure?

Railroad Infrastructure
*Perhaps trains could be added as a production item to utilize the railways? They were, after all, quite an investment. Just a thought.

Trucks
- pro: flexibility
- con: requires more fuel, rubber, less efficient in general

Railroad
- pro: efficiency, saves rubber and fuel
- con: limits operational flexibility by "railroading" the vectors of attack, makes offensives way more predictable

------------------
Maybe a good way to simulate it would be to add:
- major railway lines on the map (see the Stalingrad pics from my posts on page 1) while ignoring smaller lines.
- add "railway supplies" to production requiring steel. --> strategic redeployment consumes railway supplies
- maybe decrease reliability on trucks to increase attrition, but I'm not sure how to simulate truck transport.
 
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Dlin369

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How would train vs trucks vs walking affect troop movement in this system (out of curiosity?) I think it would provide some degree of strategic choice making deciding between taking roads and highways vs trains, but I don't have the experience or historical knowledge to grasp the full implications of it
 

Alpha2518

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How would train vs trucks vs walking affect troop movement in this system (out of curiosity?) I think it would provide some degree of strategic choice making deciding between taking roads and highways vs trains, but I don't have the experience or historical knowledge to grasp the full implications of it

Look at Barbarossa for example. Only the elite spearheads of the Panzers and Motorized troops were completely motorized with tanks, trucks, and half tracks. The remainder had to march by walking and use horses to tow their supplies. The result was an ever increasing gap between the mobile formations and the foot mobile formations. Meaning this big "encirclements" had huge gaps were Soviets could escape if they could. I think a couple of times they had to stop and wait for the foot mobiles to catch up.

Now let us compare this to a far smaller encirclement at the Falaise Pocket. Here the British and Americans are completely motorized. Meaning every formation, is a mobile formation. They don't need to stop and let foot mobiles catch up. They keep going as long as their fuel supply allows which means much more rapid and sustained advances in comparison.

Now that's trucks vs foot mobiles. How about Trains vs Trucks? Again, best example is Operation Barbarossa. German trucks could only advance 300km before they would start breaking down. You see this in the hex wargame Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa where each hex is 30km and if you don't manage your fleet of trucks effectively you will not be able to take Moscow. So the strategy was to advance long the railways and capture them, convert the rails so you could move your railheads further into enemy territory before offloading onto your trucks who would then deliver the supplies needed to where they needed to go. Usually the mobile formations would be truck supplied. And if planned and managed well in that game you can sustain your fleet of trucks without them breaking down.

There is also downtime for maintenance that trucks need to, otherwise they will breakdown and be of no use. This is something that the Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa also simulates with decisions of continuing the attack risking broken trucks or taking time to maintain them. Not something I expect HoI4 to get into, but it is worth noting for the relationship between trains, trucks and foot mobiles.
 
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Perhaps the delivery system using trucks could be state level and their attrition would be a factor of the average road infrastructure level. That would play fairly realistically I believe, given road conditions play a huge role in vehicular breakdowns.
 
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ThaHoward

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Also an idea: Truck and horse supply system require manpower. Manpower in HoI4 is quite excessive for several nations. Giving manpower to essentially rear echelons could also help with certain natiols steamrolling into others.

Perhaps also convoys could require manpower. Right now it is, to put it polite, silly that the Nederlands get a huge manpower boost and the focus justify it by saying "the Dutch conscripted people for their convoys" and then we only use it on the Army or whatever.
 
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Also an idea: Truck and horse supply system require manpower. Manpower in HoI4 is quite excessive for several nations. Giving manpower to essentially rear echelons could also help with certain natiols steamrolling into others.

Perhaps also convoys could require manpower. Right now it is, to put it polite, silly that the Nederlands get a huge manpower boost and the focus justify it by saying "the Dutch conscripted people for their convoys" and then we only use it on the Army or whatever.

Logistic manpower, in its entirety, was three to four times the manpower in the divisions themselves for the US and UK. The US Army had 6 million to 7.7 million men to man and deploy about 90 divisions world wide. Deploying large combat units into logistically hostile areas that are thousands of miles away was a major undertaking that few countries had the resources for.
 
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Logistic manpower, in its entirety, was three to four times the manpower in the divisions themselves for the US and UK. The US Army had 6 million to 7.7 million men to man and deploy about 90 divisions world wide. Deploying large combat units into logistically hostile areas that are thousands of miles away was a major undertaking that few countries had the resources for.

Yes. UK could not conduct offensive operations (on its own) postD-Day - and they knew that before D-Day. It may also make convoys a more precious resource.

And to not make Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary etc conquer the USSR - or Japan in China in one year.
 
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The whole battle planner a.i. made me think that a "Strategic Command"-style railroad system couldn't work because of the a.i.

But when I think about it, that shouldn't be an impossible hurdle to overcome. Similar to VP provinces, railroad provinces could get a modifier that incentivizes the a.i. to conquer and defend railroads.
 
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Iskulya

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Jan 12, 2011
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Again, if you think about HoI4: did you ever feel logistical constraints? If railroads are not explicitly on the map, the gameflow should at least feel as if there were railroads.

Literally just about every single game I do.

Playing as an Allied country my allies swarm over any conquered foothold in Fortress Europe until every friendly division is taking over 20% attrition.

Same thing happens on the southern portion of the Eastern Front when I play Germany.

The logistical problems in the game as it exists are HUGE and incredibly frustrating. I've rage quit games because of it, but more commonly I just use the console and delete my allies' divisions since by using all the supply they are worse than useless.

The logistical constraints are the result of AI stupidity rather than any inherent issue with the mechanics.

In multiplayer it's clear that the lack of a real logistics system. The Soviet Union ends up collapsing like a house of cards if the Axis breaks through their front line and makes it past Kiev.

The only thing that could fix this issue is a new kind of logistics system. I've heard that the Soviets used a different kind of gauge on the railway so in fact the Germans could not even use the Soviet railways as they were.

I think Paradox must be very careful with any kind of logistical rework. We shouldn't have to spend time micromanaging what is essentially minutiae like railway gauges. Any logistical system needs to be imapctful, yet at the same time, not place a large micromanagement burden on the player. More depth while minimizing complexity. I think they have shown they can achieve this with the addition of fuel, although many people here may not have played back in the days before fuel existed. Hard to imagine that was already almost two years ago. This is not the same thing as saying that logistical problems should be easy to solve. It should have cost that is diverted from production in some way, just as we've seen with the Intel and fuel systems in the past.

If anything Paradox errs too far on the side of caution. The new intel system is very much free of micromanagement, but lacks the required depth. There is nothing really you can specifically do to hide your intel like vital war production details. There's no way to root out infiltrators either. It's so easy to get intel that it must be taken as a given that every side will have 80%+ if not 90%+ intel on every category for every major in the opposing side in a multiplayer game.

I think there should be a great deal of hesitancy in taking inspiration from hex based games. Many are overly tedious and very boring. There's a reason they've never achieved anything remotely like the success of the Hearts of Iron series.

OP's picture from the other game does look promising though. Some kind of streamlined and simple to understand railway system really could potentially work well. Any logistics reworks needs to encompass more than that though. There needs to be a way to deal with the problems of those extreme terrains like deserts, mountains, swamps, and islands. It shouldn't be easy, of course, but there needs to be solutions that can be accounted for in the planning for war.
 
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