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Commander666

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This is not a mini-AAR even though by the time this thread eventually completes there will be at least 21 screen shots published. Rather this thread is intended for Forum input and discussion of the many factors for player of Germany to consider when attacking the Soviet Union; and only uses the screen shots I present as a reference to relate to. I expect the thread to develop with examination of the different phases of a Barbarossa campaign – with each phase presented on following weeks.

There are many people who indirectly contributed to me doing this thread… and they deserve credit. First and foremost is Mr_BOnarpte who advised that I practice on v1.08 before attempting my future planned AAR on TRM. Next is Pang Bingxun who’s much advice I half followed – by building my German infrastructure only to half. Hister was very important as a counselor of “Forum harmony”. Titan79 was instrumental in motivating me to get a signature. Bosman often challenged successfully ideas I did entertain, as did jkduncan1973. Pioniere, lollibast and vitality lent the philosophy of “alternate ideas” while Blecky, Deniss and mcganyol gave important information about “game facts”. Marshall18 gave me the much needed perspective of hindsight to remember how it was when I first started with Hearts of Iron many years ago. Van Paulous showed a new idea. And, whenever my spirits sank, somewhere in Forum I could always find a good laugh to cheer me up again reading posts by either Count of Reval, Quasimodo64 or cyberpunkdreams.

While there are many others in Forum (too many to mention) that all lent their indirect contribution to this thread, there is one person who deserves mentioning again as the force that directly determined me to do this thread about my surprising alternate panzer tactics for a Barbarossa Blitz:












I'd rather call it "suicidal panzer tactics". The only surprise the USSR would have would be how crazy Germany looks focusing its attack through the Pripet Marshes. :p

So – with formalities to Moderators, friends and sparring partners alike acknowledged – let me begin.

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It is June 22nd 1941, and Germany has amassed a powerful and modern army in Poland – mostly on the border facing the many divisions of the Soviet Union. The Hungarians are there too… believing in Hitler’s cause. Also in the Axis are the Romanians and Finns – both determined to win back what Stalin took from them. Finally, the Bulgarians, Italians, Iraqis and Syrians are also in the Axis, but since they are all either busy chewing olives in Greece or slapping sand fleas in some far off desert, we don’t need to worry about them. I suppose I do need mention the Slovakians though, as they now have five infantry divisions (whoopee!).

For two years now Adolf Hitler and the OKW have been planning what to do about the Soviet Union – an ideological enemy estimated to have at least 330 divisions (23 armored), 26 fighter wings, 8 bomber wings and a very large submarine force. Having discovered the idea of “Blitzkrieg” inadvertently in Poland when they analyzed the rapid 7-day conquest which annexed that nation, and then practicing over and over the first planned blitzkrieg in France to make possible a 7-day Vichy Event, the blitzkrieg now poised for the conquest of the Soviet Union was the best formulated yet. They code named it “Barbarossa”.

Barbarossa was envisioned as a 6-phase operation:

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Phase 1 – The total annihilation of the southern half of the Soviet line with the capture of the key “gateway” city of Kiev.
Phase 2 – Total annihilation of the center part of the Soviet line with capture of the key Baltic port of Riga.
Phase 3 –Destruction of the northern Soviet Baltic Coastal Line with capture of the key city of Leningrad.
Phase 4 – The isolation and eventual elimination of all Soviet units in Lapland and the Karelia area with seizure of the key White Sea port of Archangelsk.
Phase 5 – Seizure of all the oil rich provinces in the Caucasus including Batu.
Phase 6 – The capture of Moscow to gain the huge stockpiles of resources there and give Stalin a humiliating defeat so that he might sue for peace.

For this week I would like to present Phase 1. Then it will be open to Forum to comment on the strategy used, discuss alternatives for Barbarossa, and generally be as Forum is. When the time is right, I will present Phase 2, and repeat until Moscow has been captured.

PHASE 1- Total annihilation of the southern half of the Soviet line.

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A look at the Soviet line shows that there are only two Russian provinces where Germany can obtain a three angle attack, or better. The obvious “target provinces” to create a pincher blitzkrieg are Bielsk in the north, and Stryl in the south. It is hoped that if the pincher can be closed behind the Soviet line at Rowne that would pocket about 50 Red divisions – which could then be easily destroyed. The problem is that such an ambitious plan will surely run into resistance from the Soviet defense-in-depth and especially the Soviets quickly responding to either prevent - or break open again - any envelopment by using their mobile reserves and considerable armor divisions. Clearly overwhelming force, speed and precise Luftwaffe co-ordination will be needed to succeed.

However, Germany is fortunate to be blessed with some great strategists – especially an outlandish chap called “Commander666”. He has long had this idea of blitzing panzers thru the Pripet Marshes – an idea deemed ridiculous by most tank commanders. But Hitler did permit Commander666 to present his plan.

Commander666: Heil Hitler!

Hitler: Heil Hitler. What plans did you bring?

Commander666: I brought geographical info about the Pripet Marshes.

Hitler (already bored): Yes, I’ve heard of the area – stinks of swamp gas, mosquitoes eat you alive and horses disappear with one miss-step.

Commander666: It’s not quite that bad, sir. Our spies have made many ground tests and found several tracks thru the marshes that will support Lt ARM.

Hitler (jerks up in his chair): Ooh really? Show me these geographical maps.

Commander666: The Bielsk Province with its Pripet Marsh gives us the best attack to launch a spearhead that would link up with the southern spearhead going thru Lvov. The beauty of the plan is that the rest of the Pripet Marshes north of our thrust will prevent the Russian fast mobile units – especially their heavy armor – from being able to move quick enough to block us. However, our cavalry – supported by 3 divisions of light armor – can quite quickly actually get thru Bielsk and be attacking Pinsk – the second marsh. Furthermore, our fast motorized infantry coming up thru Lvov will also be attacking Pinsk from the other side to quickly eliminate any resistance there. All that is needed is for the Luftwaffe to provide timely support.

Hitler: This is a very interesting plan. We must find a way to envelope a large bulk of the Reds or we will have the whole Soviet army pouring into any breach we make. We absolutely need a major surround at start. I like this plan. Make me a list of all the forces needed for your unorthodox idea of blitzing thru the Pripet Marshes. And I guarantee you; you can have two Fallschirmjäger divisions on standby should they be needed to prevent the Soviets getting new units into Bielsk or Pinsk after the first battle in each province is won.

Commander666: That, mein Führer, is a guarantee that this plan cannot fail. Thank you. Heil Hitler!
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THE OTHER IMPORTANT MEETING that preceded Barbarossa occurred in Budapest with representatives of the Herr, the Hungarians and the Romanians. Key attendees were Field Marshal Phleps (in charge of 33 Romania divisions facing the Red line), Field Marshal Gorondy-Novak (in charge of 34 Hungarian divisions stationed in Presov) and his next-of-command General Ruszksay, Field Marshal von Leeb responsible for 35 Wehrmacht infantry divisions stationed in Przemysl, and finally another outlandish man – a tank commander called General Guderian who was with one of the 15 Wehrmacht panzer divisions.

Hitler: We are poised to strike the greatest blow ever done in warfare. What have you gentleman to say?

Phelps: We don’t have that big an army. We just want to kick those Bolsheviks out of Romania.

Ruszkay: Yah, you don’t have that big a country anymore either. I mean, Transylvania definitely belongs to us, but why did you ever cede Constanta to those Bulgarians?

Phelps: It was the Vienna Accord.

Ruszkay: Shit man! Giving the Reds all of Bessarabia wasn’t the Vienna Accords. It was your spineless nature. You should have joined the Axis sooner.

Phelps: I hope a Werewolf gets you!

Hitler: Gentlemen! Gentlemen. We are all in the same alliance. PLEASE, can we discuss the southern spearhead?

von Leeb: I would like to introduce General Guderian, commander of one of our armored corps.

Guderian: Thank you Field Marshal. As most of you know, Germany has been studying the concepts of lightning warfare. I have a plan that will realize an attack of 142 divisions on the Soviet defenders in Stryl - estimated at 10 divisions.

Phelps: Do you think we will win?

Guderian: Yes Field Marshal, we will win. The important concept of this attack is that – while the 23 Romanian divisions to the south of this spearhead who are contributing 2 angles of attack on Stryl will remain stationary as will the 12 German divisions north of the spearhead contributing another angle of attack from Zamosc, the 107 divisions of the Wehrmacht and Hungary in Presov and Przemysl giving two more angles of attack will then all attack TOGETHER against Lvov once they get thru the first Russian province.

Hitler: Great attack on Stryl. But 107 divisions next on a one angle of attack from conquered Stryl moving at same time into Lvov?

Guderian: Yes, mein Führer.

Hitler: Will that not result in at least 83 divisions being over command and ASTRONOMICAL stacking penalty for every division?

Guderian : Yes, it will mein Führer.

Hitler: Well then, explain yourself, commander.

Guderian: Sir, this spearhead is not a time to worry either about over command or stacking penalties. The only concern is to pour 107 divisions thru the Lvov Gap in the minimum of time possible. 50 of those divisions are mobile units – 15 armor and 35 motorized infantry plus one HQ. Once those divisions reach Lvov they will fan out to go north behind the Russian lines to meet the other spearhead and create an envelopment there, and another envelopment of the Red units facing Romania once we reach the Black Sea. Additionally a new spearhead will run through the center and drive on Kiev, while smaller spearheads will establish blocking positions using a part of the Pripet Marshes and the natural river boundaries as our defense from any Soviet retaliatory action while we annihilate everything in the Soviet southern half of their line. Our intelligence estimates – together with the Northern Spearhead out of Lomza going thru the Pripet Marshes, the two envelopments that will be created, and the over-running of retreating enemy - it will result in the elimination of about 100 Soviet divisions. Basically, the Red Army in the south will no longer be able to mount any effective resistance for our eventual thrust into the Caucasus.

Hitler: WOW! What an ambitious plan! Is there anything that might cause it to fail?

Guderian: Yes, there is… if we don’t get past Lvov… because the Reds will do everything to try and block that breach.

Hitler: In that case, General Guderian, we will reserve our 3rd Fallschirmjäger to attack Lvov if needed and so block any Red divisions from blocking your plan.

Guderian: Thank you. That will guarantee success. This will be the greatest Blitzkrieg ever.

Hitler: You are sure about the destruction of 100 enemy divisions?

Guderian: It all depends on our speed, which is why everything is moving from 01:00 hours. Every corps (stack) has been given its mission to its final destination. No unit will delay even one hour – or a day – with intermediate missions such as only to Lvov.

Hitler: I’ll speak to Göring and get his assurances that this spearhead gets maximum Luftwaffe support to keep those nasty Reds from moving in from the flanks. What about the expected “defense-in-depth”?

Guderian: I assure you that when my 15 armored divisions impact on any “defense-in-depth” it will simply be a few hours battle and those defenders will be over run. The same will happen for the 3 stacks of motorized that are taking different paths.

Hitler: But all of this – after Lvov - will be one angle attacks, correct?

Guderian: Yes sir. Just like a lightning bolt striking the enemy dead. There is no need to delay to create two angle attacks when we have this strength. We can save that tactic for later. The only motto is “Every hour counts” until we have the two envelopments closed, hold Kiev and have set up a defensive perimeter from the Black Sea to Suwalki. Basically, we are taking 23 Soviet provinces in one very fast push.

Phelps: Wow!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems there was one other most important meeting that was missed. The Logistic Experts had advised that Germany’s total oil stockpile was only about 25,000. Using offensive supplies for Phase 1 was estimated to consume 20,000.

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O1:00 HOURS, June 22, 1941

Commanders from Suwalki in the north to Iasi in Romania blow their whistles… and 190 Axis divisions attack the Soviet line at two points. 8 wings of CAS, 16 of TAC, 12 INT and 7 FTR flying from 9 forward airbases – most adjacent to the Soviet line – reach for the sky to hail down unheralded destruction upon an enemy.

Barbarossa has begun.

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Missions are set as far forward as possible to create two envelopments and win 23 provinces – thereby eliminating the 24-hour delay incurred upon mission completion and the 6-hour lag to start new mission. The Luftwaffe is tasked to its maximum ability to respond as new battles occur – hence they never bomb at night and – as much as possible – always try to have one forward stack on standby. All 9 forward airbases (includes Warsaw) - each build to full capacity for the wings based there - are visible. Danzig (the 10th) holds 4 NAV on additional standby.





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Starting in Lomza, 3 Lt Arm, 12 CAV and 11 INF with HQ (all brigaded) begin the drive forward thru the Pripet Marshes. They are supported by 12 INF in Suwalki and 12 in Lublin (most with heavy brigades). Basically, there is no contest. Who cares the Lt Arm are “over command”. Their only concern is to reach Pinsk asap, or better yet, Rowne. The attack line does NOT go thru Brest Litovsk as game seemingly indicates. It goes directly to Pinsk. Seems the Ruskies never expected this “suicidal” action and only have two divisions in Bielsk. What a surprise that is – for both the Reds and me!

EDIT: Closer examination of the battle reveals they actually had 9 divisions at start and not sure how many more they added during the battle. The 2 currently in battle display might be the last defenders or reinforcements.





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On the third day of battle the southern spearhead - 107 divisions moving through the gap - is pushing past Lvov (one province won each day). It appears there are 20 Red divisions in Stryl and Lvov retreating who will be over run. While the Soviet Air Force proved to be a formidable opponent and took down both stacks of German INT, the Luftwaffe bombers managed to keep the Reds pinned down enough so Fallschirmjäger were not needed. The only remaining INT flying today are the 5 wings of Hungarian INT-II… and they saved the war. Seems the attrition suffered between the Luftwaffe and Soviet fighter forces resulted in the obsolete Hungarian interceptors currently being the strongest of all in this sector.

But Germany’s oil stockpile is now down to just 4,394.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think to maintain moderator tolerance and Forum anticipation, this is a good spot to stop installment one. Continuation of Phase 1 and other future installments will contain many more screen shots and far less words now that the intro is done. Thread now open to Forum.
 
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Pang Bingxun

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Von Hanneken has not that much skill. Logistic wizards are fine while not in battle, but if heavy fighting is expected leaders with better skill are likely to save much more supplies and oil because battles will be shorter both in terms of consumed time as in terms of consumed manpower. During battle each division should profit from best values at attack and defence.
I am also convinced that risking over command penalty is not in your favour. If you use more than 2 provinces for your initial attack you can deliver much more org damage to the soviets. Barbarossa is about inflicting org damage and utlizing it with high speed.

Commander666: That, mien Führer, is a guarantee that this plan cannot fail. Thank you.

The correct spelling is mein Führer. What you wrote would sound like mean Führer.

Ruszkay: Shit man! Giving the Reds all of Bessarabia wasn’t the Vienna Accords. It was your spineless nature. You should have joined the Axis sooner.

Ribbentrop gave Bessarabia to the soviets in the MR-Pact. If Romania choses to resists the soviets it will automatically leave axis.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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Very interesting AAR... I mean thread ;) It'll be good to see how the AI handles such a "suicidal" attack.
 

MagooNZ

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Commander666, what is your difficulty level for this 1.08 game? I have yet to manage a 1 summer Barbarossa on Normal/Normal difficulty, but I have come up with a much better plan to achieve it this time. I am pleased that you and Pang Bingxun appear to be on reasonable terms. Since I have come to realise that your often lengthy discussions with Pang harbour pearls of wisdom (at least for me they do), I would not wish such discussions to cease. I still have many more of your discussions to re-read. You have certainly taught me what it takes to improve; the efforts that you went to minimise Poland & France campaign lengths & casualties, things that I have not even have contemplated.
A challenge for you Commander666, would be to convince Pang to take you on in a MP AAR (at some time in the future, when you are both ready). From what I have read, you would lead the axis as GER, and Pang would lead the non-axis as either ENG or SOV. An average player is unlikely to harm the non-axis cause as USA. But I am unsure which of ENG or SOV is more important for the non-axis cause. I recall Pang does not play GER, and is not so interested in MP; hence the challenge.
I don't think this path is "suicidual", it is similar to what I have planned. Perhaps Mr_B0narpte's comment refers to overcommand (Pang mentions), presumably shown in Model's 51:2?
 

Mr_B0narpte

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A challenge for you Commander666, would be to convince Pang to take you on in a MP AAR (at some time in the future, when you are both ready). From what I have read, you would lead the axis as GER, and Pang would lead the non-axis as either ENG or SOV. An average player is unlikely to harm the non-axis cause as USA. But I am unsure which of ENG or SOV is more important for the non-axis cause. I recall Pang does not play GER, and is not so interested in MP; hence the challenge.
A 1v1 would have to be Germany v USA or USSR to be fair, Germany v UK is heavily in favour of Germany.
I don't think this path is "suicidual", it is similar to what I have planned. Perhaps Mr_B0narpte's comment refers to overcommand (Pang mentions), presumably shown in Model's 51:2?
My comment refers to attacking through the Pripet Marshes. But, as I think I have said before, the USSR AI should be defeatable by a variety of bizarre attacks that a human player would easily be able to repulse. Still, this is an interesting choice, and I await the results. :)
 

Pang Bingxun

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A challenge for you Commander666, would be to convince Pang to take you on in a MP AAR (at some time in the future, when you are both ready). From what I have read, you would lead the axis as GER, and Pang would lead the non-axis as either ENG or SOV. An average player is unlikely to harm the non-axis cause as USA. But I am unsure which of ENG or SOV is more important for the non-axis cause. I recall Pang does not play GER, and is not so interested in MP; hence the challenge.

I believe one of the few things the Commander and me can agree on is that MP is hardly an option. I love pause way too much.

I recall Pang does not play GER

Past tense please. Germany with its superb tech teams is most fun to play. You have the option to be ahead in anything you like, at least as long as you are neglecting some other techs. And you have the need to save manpower, at least if you aim for total domination by annexing all other nations.

A 1v1 would have to be Germany v USA or USSR to be fair, Germany v UK is heavily in favour of Germany.

I am not so sure about that. In 1936 UK has similiar base ic but much more allies and the reasonbly option of full free markets. You have to trigger
event 2000 GER(Rhineland)
event 2020 GER(Anschluss)
event 2030 GER(Munich)
event 2040 GER(R.I.P. CZE)
event 2008 GER(Memel)
event 2050 GER(MR-Pact)
event 3401 ENG(Poland joins allies)
and save before starting the game. Load this save as a starting point and UK and France suffer no peacetime ic modifier and it should be sufficiently fair.
 

bosman

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Quite interesting plan Commander666. How are your units brigaded ? Do You use artillery bombardment ? I personally use it to engage enemy units for some time. I wish there is no "FEINT" action like in HoI 1, but AB is still useful.

BTW, "Hitler: Heil Hitler." was quite hilarious :)
 

Commander666

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Commander666, what is your difficulty level for this 1.08 game?

I am using normal/normal. In my experience on earlier versions I found that higher setting like "furious", while interesting, result in the AI committing many rather suicidal attacks that really were not in its best interest as normal defensive play easily blocked them. I am feeling that normal/normal is making the AI be the best it can.
 

Commander666

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I believe one of the few things the Commander and me can agree on is that MP is hardly an option. I love pause way too much.

Unfortunately, seems we will not agree on that option not being an option either... since I too love pause way too much. I can just envision an MP game between us amicably solved - but being on permanent pause.... each of us forever calculating our opening move! I suppose we could make "dates" in real time to advance the game a few hours until the next desired pause. :)

All other points of yours made earlier will be counter argued after Phase 1 completes. :D
 
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Commander666

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Quite interesting plan Commander666. How are your units brigaded ? Do You use artillery bombardment ?
Thanks!

The ARM and MOTs have SP/ART with 1/3 of the MOts SP/TD. The INF use the heavy brigades (ART, AT) that come with the build scheme, which can be quite a lot if one lets the Austrian MTN build continue. The MAR and PAR that I build come with extra ART, and all remaining "heavy brigades" I put on INF selectively. Depending on province movement rates as relates to moving into enemy territory, a stack of 12 INF might be 3 heavy brigades and rest nothing or AC. This might result in 9 INF moving rapidly forward while the 3 "heavy" hold the defensive line.Or it can reverse - 9 heavy that will take longer to advance into won battle province but have the strength to survive once they get there, and only 3 light inf holding line because the geograph/ enemy threat makes that safe. Basically I build one line AC for CAV and INF. My MTN all have ENG. The HQ all got AA, which has proved to be a considerable handicap so far.

Artillery bombardment? No, still trying to figure out how that is better than just attacking. I think my Luftwaffe probably mostly performs what ART bombarment might achieve. I really should try this tactic more as I only used it once - to wake up the French.

BTW, "Hitler: Heil Hitler." was quite hilarious :)

This is actually a strange Germanic habit, and probably did occur. When Hitler says "Heil Hitler" he is putting himself beneath himself as regards the juxtaposition of his role as the Fuhrer versus the role he will temporarily assume regarding making it easier for commanders meeting him to be on a closer level with him. In another way, it is a Germanic greeting to impart "You have permission to speak... because for the moment I am not the Fuhrer".

I hope the "thread" will get funnier as it progresses. But for now it needs considerable more Forum input first to establish it really is a proper Forum thread. The conclusion of Phase 1 has been written (and I'm certainly lauging "tweaking" that) but it awaits more Forum readers to post here before I dare publish it.
 
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Commander666

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Commander666

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Dude there is no way you are going anywhere with 4000 oil that is a huge problem.

Well, actually it's 4,394 at time of writing. Perhaps the extra 394 will save the Third Reich (?) ;)
 

Pang Bingxun

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Which Chief of Army do you use? If Werner von Fritsch is still in Power you really should disband all Art on Inf. With armoured spearhead doctrine minister Inf1941-Art1940 has soft attack 20. Inf1941-SpArt1940 has soft attack 20.4. Since Inf1941-SpArt1940 also has the clearly superior toughness it will suffer (much) lower losses in offensive.

Artillery bombardment? No, still trying to figure out how that is better than just attacking. I think my Luftwaffe probably mostly performs what ART bombarment might achieve. I really should try this tactic more as I only used it once - to wake up the French.

Luftwaffe won't help much against entrenched enemies. Art bombardement will. You need ESE to be as high as possibly. Build up infra on the hole supply line, use HQ and use offensive supplies on Inf1939-RR. This unit has Artbombardement 31. Art bombedement does not suffer from stacking. Use 30 Inf1939-RR to bombard from one province and the units in the attacked provinces will suffer strong org damage. A total org damage of 600 per day is not a very high number under the circumstances i just imaged. Using it against Magniot line is a waste of resources. But you could use it to fasten the poland campaign and it surely helps to reach an initial breakthrough if facing a serios stack of the soviets. But do you really need it? In the early phase of the game you lack enemies that make Art Bombardement a reasonable means of attack. But if facing a soviet stack of 40 divisions it surely can do some help or if trying to breacktrough at Bilbao because Vichy only allows this one angle of attack it will help. And against Swiss it will help, too.
 

Commander666

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Which Chief of Army do you use? If Werner von Fritsch is still in Power you really should disband all Art on Inf. With armoured spearhead doctrine minister Inf1941-Art1940 has soft attack 20. Inf1941-SpArt1940 has soft attack 20.4. Since Inf1941-SpArt1940 also has the clearly superior toughness it will suffer (much) lower losses in offensive.



Luftwaffe won't help much against entrenched enemies. Art bombardement will. You need ESE to be as high as possibly. Build up infra on the hole supply line, use HQ and use offensive supplies on Inf1939-RR. This unit has Artbombardement 31. Art bombedement does not suffer from stacking. Use 30 Inf1939-RR to bombard from one province and the units in the attacked provinces will suffer strong org damage. A total org damage of 600 per day is not a very high number under the circumstances i just imaged. Using it against Magniot line is a waste of resources. But you could use it to fasten the poland campaign and it surely helps to reach an initial breakthrough if facing a serios stack of the soviets. But do you really need it? In the early phase of the game you lack enemies that make Art Bombardement a reasonable means of attack. But if facing a soviet stack of 40 divisions it surely can do some help or if trying to breacktrough at Bilbao because Vichy only allows this one angle of attack it will help. And against Swiss it will help, too.

Disband my ART during Barbarossa? Tell it to my MAR, PAR and INF. They will probably drown you in the ocean, or push you out of an airplane without a parachute, or just shoot you for "traitorous actions".

"Entrenched enemies?" "Serious stack of Soviets?" "Facing a Soviet stack of 40 divisions?"
I really think you have never witnessed a true lightning war on 1.08... and suggest you hold your words until Phase 6 is competed - before you end up having to eat most of them.

You know, I think you really need to try an develope your own Barbarossa instead of giving advice that will all prove to be "counter lightning warfare". Anyway, I will address your points - as I said - after completion of Phase 1. Maybe you should just wait for the next installment?
 

Pang Bingxun

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Disband my ART during Barbarossa? Tell it to my MAR, PAR and INF. They will probably drown you in the ocean, or push you out of an airplane without a parachute, or just shoot you for "traitorous actions".

Changing Brigades during a offensive is not a good idea and i was surely not talking about PAR or MTN that cannot use SpArt. But building SpArt and replacing Art at Inf and Mar can still do some good. Best option is of course to not build ART and AT in the first place unless attached to MTN or PAR. Simple building Inf-SpArt in the first place is the proper solution.

"Entrenched enemies?" "Serious stack of Soviets?" "Facing a Soviet stack of 40 divisions?"
I really think you have never witnessed a true lightning war on 1.08...

If you delay the war till 1942 it is possible to face more enemy divisions than 1941. But i was mostly talking about Art bombardement in general.
BTW: I necessarily have seen the german AI to do some nice Blitzkriegs in 1.08. Will you do better than AI?

You know, I think you really need to try an develope your own Barbarossa instead of giving advice that will all prove to be "counter lightning warfare".

I try to only give advise that proves to be beneficial, at least if obliged properly. Using SpArt instead of Art is one quite obvios option of improvement.
 

Commander666

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Simple building Inf-SpArt in the first place is the proper solution.

If I listen to you you'll break my army with lack of IC. I have ONE LINE of SP/ART. And until every ARM has that, the INF will satisfy themselves with ACs, or nothing.

I don't built either ART or AT. The ART came with Austria's MTNs which I did want. Cheap ART is excellent for the Atlantic Wall. Much stronger than SP at given year, isn't it? It is also absolutely necessary for PAR and MAR, who I do build with that. We are discussing 10 brigades.


. Using SpArt instead of Art is one quite obvios option of improvement.

I am inclined to say "certainly - if you can afford it". Obviously that is a choice. On the other hand I really feel making that choice for INF is probably killing your game because definitely something else will not be there. If my INF are nearly not active in my Blitzkrieg (because of the lightning speed) why would I idle a line of CV to build SP/ART for the INF? Yes, I actually think "IF I build SP/ART for my game, it would kill my game". It so much depends on the differnces of how people play THEIR game.


BTW: I necessarily have seen the german AI to do some nice Blitzkriegs in 1.08. Will you do better than AI?

Are you trying to kill me with laughter? Why don't you just wait and see... and let enough others get into this thread to drop a few comments so it gains enough Forum validity to safely publish next section. You know that this bantering between you and me is not good for thread safety. So, if you want next installment, please respect that, and visit back in a few days.
 

Pang Bingxun

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I don't built either ART or AT. The ART came with Austria's MTNs which I did want. Cheap ART is excellent for the Atlantic Wall. Much stronger than SP at given year, isn't it?

Art is not much stronger than SpArt. At given year Art has 1 additional soft attack, but that is reduced by combined arms bonus. At offensive SpArt is clearly superior if the proper minister is used.

It is also absolutely necessary for PAR and MAR, who I do build with that.

It is necessary for PAR and MTN. MAR can use ART, but SpArt is usually preferable.

If I listen to you you'll break my army with lack of IC. I have ONE LINE of SP/ART. And until every ARM has that, the INF will satisfy themselves with ACs, or nothing.
...
I am inclined to say "certainly - if you can afford it". Obviously that is a choice. On the other hand I really feel making that choice for INF is probably killing your game because definitely something else will not be there. If my INF are nearly not active in my Blitzkrieg (because of the lightning speed) why would I idle a line of CV to build SP/ART for the INF? Yes, I actually think "IF I build SP/ART for my game, it would kill my game". It so much depends on the differnces of how people play THEIR game.

A lot depends on circumstances and i cannot safely say what is the best in your circumstances. But using SpArt tends to give good gain for relatively few bucks/icd. A rule of tumb is: All divisions that can use SpArt should use SpArt, at least if using the proper minister. Building divisions with SpArt attached gives the whole divisions the -5% on building time and building costs. Using SpArt at a big scale is one of the keys for an efficient Barbarossa campaign.

Are you trying to kill me with laughter?

I was hoping you get the humour, but health problems have not been intended.
 

Titan79

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Interesting approach, Commander. However - as it has already been said before - I'd also consider an attack through the Pripjat marshes to be rather "suicidal" for the Wehrmacht (I've done this once myself but I quickly stopped it and turned to another battle plan instead, as the attack was getting too MP-expensive - and the units in the marshes moved sooo slow!) but nonetheless it could work if such an action were backed by a strong determination. Well, you're going to show us what really happened in your game, so we have just to wait for the next phases :) .

Also: I'm totally with AdamPA1006 when he says that you're alarmingly low on oil... unless you're reaching Baku in a matter of weeks and release Azerbaijan at once (in order to make them produce, and give you, the 100% of their oil) I'm afraid you'll have to fight your Barbarossa with the same means Napoleon did... i.e. leg infantry and horses! (other possibilities to avoid this potentially severe situation would be to setup a 30 oil/day deal with Romania and to immediately start producing synthetic fuel)

Eagerly awaiting for updates!
 

Commander666

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Eagerly awaiting for updates!

Well, as Romania is already giving me ALL the oil its got, and ALL my convoys are engaged in shipments from Venezuela, and the Herr is a very long ways still from Baku, and the conversion plants are still in their infancy - it seems the situation must already be hopelessly lost.

...but nonetheless it could work if such an action were backed by a strong determination

What a wonderful tension to this "thread". "Possible strong determination of lightning warfare" versus obviously soon resorting to "hoofing it" to something less than victory!

Yes, and I too eagerly await to publish next piece. Very, very glad you dropped by.
 
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