Banishment from forum

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This isn´t about EU but I think everybody will understand why I am posting this message.

I am writing because of an unpleasent feeling I´ve had lately because of the banishment of that russian fellow that posted those 'suspect' political ideas.

I find myself unable to agree with any kind of censorship, despite understanding that neo-nazi propaganda is very successful with a big part of the nowdays politicaly unprepared/uncultured population.

This forum as pleased me tremendously because of the civic and tolerant level of discussion, passions rise frequently but discussion allways remains on the argument level and personal 'jabs' are quite rare and quickly amended for.

In this spirit I think that unless someone personalises discussion (with personal offenses) nobody should be banned from the forum no matter how much we disagree with the persons views.

I think that the 'I know you are there, keep speaking, I´ll ignore you anyway/I´ll refute your arguments in a civic way' spirit is the most correct aproach.

Bottom line: if another 'boyar' figure appears on this forum I think that the person should be allowed to post as long as he doesn´t break the usual rules of verbal offense and systematic off topic posting and such.
I think that the members of this forum, which have made clear several times that they have different political views, still have shown that they have the civility and tolerance needed to deal with such situations without having to resort to banishement of an 'unruly' member

P.S. I know that the Boyar fellow was offensive towards his last posts and that that was a good reason for ruling him out, but the lasting impression will be that he was banished for his political/historical opinions

P.P.S Note that I was one of the persons that was quite shocked with what this boyar fellow wrote and that I and the time was quite relieved when the admin decided to banish the guy.

 

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Originally posted by Henrique Duarte on 07-02-2000 06:19 PM
This isn´t about EU but I think everybody will understand why I am posting this message.

I am writing because of an unpleasent feeling I´ve had lately because of the banishment of that russian fellow that posted those 'suspect' political ideas.


Hello, Henrique. I agree with everything you say in your message; however, in my humble opinion I do not believe that Boyarin was banished from this forum because of his political ideas. His ideas started appearing in that topic quite soon (in fact, in his first answers to other people's replies regarding the battle of Tannenberg), and although some members of this forum (me included) started being quite shocked about them, the answers given to his opinion were perfectly sound and civil. However, Boyarin got more and more offensive and he was eventually banished, but only after three forum pages had been filled in with the discussion. Besides, someone (I believe Johan) tried to defuse the argument, but to no avail. In my humble opinion, if Boyarin had been banished due to his political opinions, he would have never had the chance to send so many messages and he would have been expelled much earlier than he was. There was a point when his comments were not so much political but even personal, and the topic was drifting towards most dangerous (and rude) terrains. I was indeed relieved to see the topic ended, because the only thing we were all achieving was getting more and more annoyed about the whole thing.

I am not a lover of censorship either, but at the same time I do not see why rude behaviour should be tolerated anywhere. Suppose that Boyarin returned to this forum and described his ideas in a more civil manner, ready for debating and reasoning in the way most of us forum members do. If this happened, I would be more than happy to debate with him. However, when the only answers you get to your questions or comments are things akin to saying 'you are wrong because you are wrong and I am right' without elaborating on the matter... well, then something is very, very wrong somewhere.
Is banning this behaviour censorship? Well, I do not think so. If you stopped somebody from painting graffitti on the Colosseum of Rome, would you call that limiting freedom of speech? I wouldn´t.

Best regards, as always.

Martin 'the Dog'

 

[unmerged(213)]

I did not see the referenced thread but I will comment anyway on this thread.

I am all for tolerance with another's views.

However, just say 'bomb' in an airport, or 'fire' in a movie theater. In the U.S. at least, these are considered irresponsible and the authorities are justly right in removing that person.

Freedom of speech is not the right to say anything to anyone at any time just because I might want to, without any accountability for what I have said. And, the owners of a forum have the right to expect people to obey the rules they have established for the forum's use. If a person breaks those rules, that person can be held to be responsible for knowing them, for choosing willfully to break them, and for suffering the consequences.

Regards

 

[unmerged(65)]

Thanks for the replys folks

Note that I understood that the Boyarin fellow was banished due to his offensive posts (in a personal way), I just couldn´t help felling tha the lasting sensation was that a guy might have been banned for political leanings.

Still I wanted to raise the issue that political views should never be used as a a motive for banishment no matter how ridiculous or offensive (the ideas of course).
I say this because there are laws in several countries forbiding extreme right wing parties and censorship of political ideas, and we usually end up seeing this as the right thing to do.
As I said on my post I understand that option on a national scale because there is no way to avoid the influence of such propaganda on people with little or no political formation/interest.
On the other hand such statments on a forum can be refuted or discussed so the motive behind the freedom restriction an national level doesn´t exist on a 'internet/forum level'

P.S. Johan I just wanted to make it clear that I agreed with the decision at the time, and perhaps I even do now. Still I think this discussion is important because there is a reasonable probability that a new Boyarin may appear.

 

[Doomdark]

Still I wanted to raise the issue that political views should never be used as a a motive for banishment no matter how ridiculous or offensive (the ideas of course).

I couldn't agree more! Even though Boyarin was wildly off topic (he obviously didn't care one whit for EU) and expressed some very repulsive views, that alone would not have been grounds to ban him.

However, Boyarin was not just expressing his political views; he was beginning to personally insult (even threaten) other posters. I recall a comment he made about being stronger than someone (Sapura?) so he could beat him up if they ever met.

I say this because there are laws in several countries forbiding extreme right wing parties and censorship of political ideas, and we usually end up seeing this as the right thing to do.

Yes... It is almost starting to become a form of Witch Hunt, only now we are hunting 'racists'. In Sweden today there are some things you just can't say...

/Doomie

 

[Dark Knight]

I also felt somewhat disquieted when Boyarin was kicked off the forum. I agree that the thread had gone completely off-topic and that Boyarin was becoming personal, but I don't think the sudden termination of his access was the best way to deal with the situation. Perhaps if any future thread follows a similar path it would be best to close off everyone's access to the thread and give people time to reflect. After this, if someone continues to put offensive posts up, then there would be grounds for banishing them from the forum.

Just my thoughts.

 

[unmerged(210)]

Originally posted by Henrique Duarte on 07-02-2000 10:05 PM
Thanks for the replys folks

I say this because there are laws in several countries forbiding extreme right wing parties and censorship of political ideas, and we usually end up seeing this as the right thing to do.

Fortunatelly there are countries in which extreme left wing parties are banned ;-)

Boyarin was not offensive with his political ideas since what he said was far from any politics. He was to an extent brainwashed by Soviet propaganda and education (claiming Tannenberg was a RUSSIAN victory), he was offensive personally. I remember he addressed Sapura with an expression 'Pan' which in the mouth of a Russian is offensive towards a Pole (in fact 'Pan' means 'Mister' but when it is being used by a Russian towards a Pole it has a special meaning - same as if a German guy would call a Pole - Polak).

just my 2 cents

andrus

 

[Johan]

I'm a guy who dislike censorship.

But when a person misuses the board to use personal racist attacks on other writers, and do not stop after repeated warnings, then I feel that he has no right to write stuff here.

Keep in mind that this boyarin never once posted anything about the game, he just wanted to do his propaganda here. That made it extremely easy for me to ban him.

/Johan

 

[unmerged(201)]

Originally posted by Johan on 07-03-2000 01:24 PM
I'm a guy who dislike censorship.
But when a person misuses the board to use personal racist attacks on other writers, and do not stop after repeated warnings, then I feel that he has no right to write stuff here.
Keep in mind that this boyarin never once posted anything about the game, he just wanted to do his propaganda here. That made it extremely easy for me to ban him.
/Johan

Full support to Johan. The guy was misusing freedom of speech by its constant attacks on participants to the forum... which is supposed to speak basically of a game not a forum on current affairs in politics and nationalist ideology...