Balkanizing the kingdom of Italy

[TheDungen]

The Apennines are relatively easy to cross, being as a whole less high than the Alps; still, they are no slouch either, which is why the main route to cross them was the Roman "Via Flaminia" for centuries, going from Rome to Pesaro (before continuing north to Rimini). Loss of control over this route to the Langobards was the reason for the Papal State's dogged attempts to keep a hold on the so-called Byzantine Corridor, passing further north through Perugia, once Spoleto had fallen. It's also why I keep saying that a Perugia province would really be needed to represent the area, especially during the earliest start date, but that's not relevant to the thread.

TL;dr: if the realm has both Latium and Spoleto, then yes, it has little problems holding together.

Now that's a very intresting post. It also explains why Tuscany is so isolated on the culture map, because they are sort of in a corner especially when the papacy control the via Flaminia road.
It also explains why caesare borgia campaigned in romanga though again outside the game's timeframe.

I just realized how large the provinces in italy actually are, the region could really use a face lift.

 

[WeissRaben]

Now that's a very intresting post. It also explains why Tuscany is so isolated on the culture map, because they are sort of in a corner especially when the papacy control the via Flaminia road.
It also explains why caesare borgia campaigned in romanga though again outside the game's timeframe.

Yeah - Romagna was pretty much the expansion direction of choice for a Rome-centered country like the Papal State, especially with the... rowdiness of Tuscans and Neapolitan power consolidating to the south.

I just realized how large the provinces in italy actually are, the region could really use a face lift.

Italy is untouched from the beginning, with the only exception being the previously even huger Spoleto province being split in two and the addition of Amalfi. It's not in a great state, really, but neither is Germany, at the very least.

 

[TheDungen]

Yeah - Romagna was pretty much the expansion direction of choice for a Rome-centered country like the Papal State, especially with the... rowdiness of Tuscans and Neapolitan power consolidating to the south.


Italy is untouched from the beginning, with the only exception being the previously even huger Spoleto province being split in two and the addition of Amalfi. It's not in a great state, really, but neither is Germany, at the very least.

... Germany's problem is more than large provinces the province placement makes no sense. Half the provinces do not relate to one another in the correct way. Germany is a nightmare.

Spoiler: Edit: If you are intrested this is where my german breakdown is.

 

[Federalist girl]

The last couple DDs have shown map tweaks in different parts of the map -- hopefully Italy gets a tweak as well.

 

[MelanzanaBill]

I'm not sure if you're asking simply a division of Italy during the HRE or a what if scenario of an independent Italy.

This is the historical division of Italy under the HRE around the 1000

Theoretically the title Kingdom of Lombardy (the same of Kingdom of Italy at the time) included all the Italian provinces under the HRE (picture below) but it almost never meant an actual control of all the region, even because often it was the same person that was King of Germany, most provinces like the one included on the map above were independent from the King of Italy.

Division between Kingdom of Germany and Kingdom of Italy at the start of the XI century

So an actual division would make sense. The territory on the first map ("Kingdom of Lombardy") was not as on the map under the direct control of the king (just on paper) but of the archbishop of Milan (ex. Airberto da Intimiano) that sometime collaborated with the king other times acted independently.

Wrapping up this division with the HRE will stop just under Frederick I (Frederick Barbarossa) Emperor of the HRE will win, thanks to a long campaign in Italy started in 1154, against the new communes (city-states) under the Lombard League, that were rising in northern and central Italy.
This will not last long because in 1176 a new league of Italian city-states will win against the Emperor becoming officially independent.

 

[TheDungen]

This is what I ended up doing. Both for Italy Germany and Sicily. It's by no means final.

Spoiler: All of the HRE

Spoiler: Italy

Spoiler: Germany

 

[Zsrai]

I would definitely leave Provence in the Kingdom of Burgundy, considering it has the historic capital (Arles) and all. Sicily looks a little awkward, but besides those two things it looks fine enough at a first glance.

 

[TheDungen]

I would definitely leave Provence in the Kingdom of Burgundy, considering it has the historic capital (Arles) and all. Sicily looks a little awkward, but besides those two things it looks fine enough at a first glance.

The kingdom of burgundy ceases to exist in 1032 an never exists again (This balkanization, with the exception of this specific one which happens in 1032, happens at june 13th 1024, the day that Heinrich II, the last ottonian emperor died, also the last emperor in the history files to actually hold the kingdoms of Germany and Italy), the kingdom of burgyndy in my screenshot as all the kingdoms in the HRE represents a large duchy (the real duchy of burgundy being a lot bigger than the one in game, and also almost got recognized as a kingdom in the early eu4 era) and provence did not belong to the greater duchy of burgundy (and if it had become a kingdom then it still wouldn't have held provence or had Arles as it's capital). In fact the duchy of Burgundy didn't even belong in the HRE, while the duchy of Provence did. Something which with the current dejure structure cannot be handled except with moving Provence out of the kingdom of burgundy into a kingdom that belongs to the HRE, since Italy is the only HRE kingdom to border it Italy is the obvious candidate.

As for sicily I have found that that province with the strain crossing to greece (Lecce?) always seems to go with the other cape. Yes all of Apulia doing so seems wrong but it was thta or start carving it up, and I wanted the kingdoms of naples and sicily to have the rough same number of duchies.
Look for an example at MelanzanaBill's map a few posts up.

 

[Thure]

Actually the Kingdom of Burgundy didn't ended with 1032. It was incorporated into the HRE, which is a completelly different thing.

The rulers of the HRE still used the title up to 1378. Burgundy was part of the three parts of the HRE: Italy, Germany and Burgundy. It even had it's own Archchancellor.

"A third office was created about 1042 by Emperor Henry III the recently acquired Kingdom of Burgundy. He initially bestowed it on Archbishop Hugh I of Besançon.[2] It only appears in the hands of the Archbishop of Trier in the twelfth century as the chancellory of Arles, as Burgundy was then known."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archchancellor

That's a map of Burgundy in the 12/13th century (!)

Spoiler

 

[TheDungen]

Actually the Kingdom of Burgundy didn't ended with 1032. It was incorporated into the HRE, which is a completelly different thing.

The rulers of the HRE still used the title up to 1378. Burgundy was part of the three parts of the HRE: Italy, Germany and Burgundy. It even had it's own Archchancellor.

"A third office was created about 1042 by Emperor Henry III the recently acquired Kingdom of Burgundy. He initially bestowed it on Archbishop Hugh I of Besançon.[2] It only appears in the hands of the Archbishop of Trier in the twelfth century as the chancellory of Arles, as Burgundy was then known."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archchancellor

That's a map of Burgundy in the 12/13th century (!)

Spoiler

No it really isn't, the same thing happened to Italy and Germany who I also Balkanized, because as I said since it goes away and never comes back there is no reason to keep representing it in the game (or rather they are already represented by e_hre), instead it is far better to use the title to represent something more important the greater duchy of burgundy. Granted I could make most of the parts of Burgundy which remained in the HRE a separate kingdom but I have no idea what to call that, Burgundy would be wrong since Burgundy was merged into the HRE, there can be no king of Burgundy since the emperor is already king of burgundy.
And quite frankly the kingdom of burgundy is to large for the HRE structure I went with.

 

[Zsrai]

Granted I could make most of the parts of Burgundy which remained in the HRE a separate kingdom but I have no idea what to call that, Burgundy would be wrong since Burgundy was merged into the HRE, there can be no king of Burgundy since the emperor is already king of burgundy.

The Kingdom of Arles, since that's also what the Kingdom of Burgundy was called. Or the Arelat, but I think Kingdom of Arles sounds better than Kingdom of (the?) Arelat.

And quite frankly the kingdom of burgundy is to large for the HRE structure I went with.

It looks like it's only got 3 duchies in it? Unless you've heavily altered the duchy set ups in that area. Provence, Dauphine, and Savoy mostly.

 

[Urzhail64]

The Kingdom of Arles, since that's also what the Kingdom of Burgundy was called. Or the Arelat, but I think Kingdom of Arles sounds better than Kingdom of (the?) Arelat.



It looks like it's only got 3 duchies in it? Unless you've heavily altered the duchy set ups in that area. Provence, Dauphine, and Savoy mostly.

Should also include Susa and Piedmont as part of Savoy as well as they've been under control of the House of Savoy throughout the medieval period.