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TheDungen

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I recently did a Balkanization mod for the kingdom of Germany where I divided it up into what was essentially the stem duchies, I have been thinking about doing the same thing to the other big kingdom in the HRE, italy, my problem is I seem unable to find an intuitive way to divide italy in a way that does not get to many small pieces (I can easily divide it up into 5 two duchy kingdoms and two single duchy ones, the last being the papacy and venice) so I thought I would ask here.
 

xXConquerorXx

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I don't think Italy needs to be divided in too many kingdoms. Since JD already broke Sardinia off (though it could be further divided into a Duchy of Corsica and a Duchy of Sardinia proper), and the southern half is already a different kingdom (Sicily, which gets further divided de-jure and de-facto in the last startdate into Naples and Trincaria), I think the remaining kingdom should be divided into two, Lombardy (k_lombardy, which is already in the game, just unused), which would be the northern half, and Italy itself, in the central portion. The border would follow the duchies of Tuscany and Romagna, which would be in Italy while everything north of them is Lombardy. Venice can stay as it is, a one-province Kingdom, and you can also make the Papacy de-jure Latium.

Only think to note, would be to also move Italy's capital to Ravenna (it's currently Padua), and to remove the Lombard kings from k_italy and place them in k_lombardy history, and fix history file accordingly.
 

TheDungen

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I don't think Italy needs to be divided in too many kingdoms. Since JD already broke Sardinia off (though it could be further divided into a Duchy of Corsica and a Duchy of Sardinia proper), and the southern half is already a different kingdom (Sicily, which gets further divided de-jure and de-facto in the last startdate into Naples and Trincaria), I think the remaining kingdom should be divided into two, Lombardy (k_lombardy, which is already in the game, just unused), which would be the northern half, and Italy itself, in the central portion. The border would follow the duchies of Tuscany and Romagna, which would be in Italy while everything north of them is Lombardy. Venice can stay as it is, a one-province Kingdom, and you can also make the Papacy de-jure Latium.

Only think to note, would be to also move Italy's capital to Ravenna (it's currently Padua), and to remove the Lombard kings from k_italy and place them in k_lombardy history, and fix history file accordingly.
I would probably create a new kingdom localized as italy then, k_central_italy for an example and just reloclaize k_italy as Lombardy, much less work.
And isn't Ravenna sort of a backwater at this point isn't Bologna of Florence better picks?
 

Federalist girl

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I think it makes sense to keep the Papal States titular, but to make the kingdom of central Italy (whatever you name it) basically coterminous with the old exarchate of Ravenna that the Papal States replaced. So basically: Latium, the Pentapolis, and Romagna. Maybe include Tuscany if you want since it was a papal ambition to control it, but I don’t know.

The idea being: 1.) papacy wants to control that area 2.) there’s a historical basis for it 3.) papacy itself is titular so players can form that central Italian Kingdom without being blocked by a theocracy that’s unable to ever be eradicated.
 

DukeLeto42

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I think it makes sense to keep the Papal States titular, but to make the kingdom of central Italy (whatever you name it) basically coterminous with the old exarchate of Ravenna that the Papal States replaced. So basically: Latium, the Pentapolis, and Romagna. Maybe include Tuscany if you want since it was a papal ambition to control it, but I don’t know.

The idea being: 1.) papacy wants to control that area 2.) there’s a historical basis for it 3.) papacy itself is titular so players can form that central Italian Kingdom without being blocked by a theocracy that’s unable to ever be eradicated.

Could you make the Papacy a duchy title (like that of the Fraticelli Papacy), but then have them start with the kingdom title, allowing them to push de jure claims but making it possible to take their title if you control the rest of the region / push them out of Latium?
 

TheDungen

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I think it makes sense to keep the Papal States titular, but to make the kingdom of central Italy (whatever you name it) basically coterminous with the old exarchate of Ravenna that the Papal States replaced. So basically: Latium, the Pentapolis, and Romagna. Maybe include Tuscany if you want since it was a papal ambition to control it, but I don’t know.

The idea being: 1.) papacy wants to control that area 2.) there’s a historical basis for it 3.) papacy itself is titular so players can form that central Italian Kingdom without being blocked by a theocracy that’s unable to ever be eradicated.
Except the old excharchate of ravenna wasn't territorial coherent.
 

Federalist girl

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Except the old excharchate of ravenna wasn't territorial coherent.

Well, it had that narrow strip of land between Latium and the Romagna, no, it doesn’t quite match up with CK2 duchies, but you could just toss in Spoleto into the de jure.

Basically I think the legal basis (de jure in its most literal sense) for a central Italian Kingdom would be the Donation of Pepin, which was roughly coextensive with the old Exarchate plus stuff the Lombards gobbled up.

@DukeLeto42 the problem with making the papacy a ducal title is that it’s too easily vassalized if its kingdom is usurped.
 

TheDungen

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maxresdefault.jpg

This would make a terrible dejure kingdom division.
 

Federalist girl

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Did you ignore what I said about using the Donation of Pepin + Spoleto as the basis? Why are you using a map from 2 centuries before the start date of the game as the basis for the Exarchate? The Exarchate of Ravenna fell in 751 and the Donation was in 757. The game starts in 769.

I said Latium + Romagna + Spoleto + that narrow bit in between.

Here, use this map (from 880) as a better visual example, since it's actually in the game's timespan. Take the whole red bit, and add the bottom yellow bit (Spoleto). That's your central Italian kingdom. The top yellow is Lombardy, uncolored is the southern Italian stuff and the islands, which are separate anyway.

carolingiandivision2.gif
 

TheDungen

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I should probably clarify that it is for the purpose of the 1066+ start dates I want it. The excharchate of ravenna has been dead for centuries by then.

Also that was sort of what I was thinking but looking at the geography both kingdoms would then be divided by the Apennines
 

WeissRaben

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I should probably clarify that it is for the purpose of the 1066+ start dates I want it. The excharchate of ravenna has been dead for centuries by then.

Also that was sort of what I was thinking but looking at the geography both kingdoms would then be divided by the Apennines
If it's for 1066, then splintering it doesn't make much sense. Italy went straight from unified kingdom to city states to unified duchies.
 

Keizer Harm

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If it's for 1066, then splintering it doesn't make much sense. Italy went straight from unified kingdom to city states to unified duchies.
That's what mods are for. This is clearly a what-if scenario.
I recently did a Balkanization mod for the kingdom of Germany
Oooh, got a Steam link for that? :)
 

Snow Crystal

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If I was going to balkanize Italy, I'd probably split it into 3 parts. The north-east which would be a "March of Verona and Aquileia" like area, the Lombardy area and then Tuscany / the Papal States. It is difficult to find justifications for the split you are going to make though, and what you would name them.
 

TheDungen

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If it's for 1066, then splintering it doesn't make much sense. Italy went straight from unified kingdom to city states to unified duchies.
Well that's essentially how I treat kingdoms in the HRE as grand duchies.

That's what mods are for. This is clearly a what-if scenario.
Exactly a stopgap sort of a grand duchy between the duchies and unifying all of italy, I am thinking of adding a decision for doing that if you hold them all folding all their dejure back into k-italy.

Oooh, got a Steam link for that
Unfortunately not, it is as a part of my much larger personal mod, I could maybe dig out the dejure changes for you. Edit: I did it's attached, some of the work is borrowed from other people I have to admit I no longer recall who. Which is also part of why I can't really publish it.
20180327130603_1.jpg
This is how it looks, not really pleased with lotharingia though. Have considered breaking it up in upper and lower lotharingia but then upper becomes very small while lower still is really large. I have been thinking of adding back Frisia despite it not being a stem duchy.
The problem is really thta all of the duchy of lower lorraine in the game was actually in upper lorraine in reality.

If I was going to balkanize Italy, I'd probably split it into 3 parts. The north-east which would be a "March of Verona and Aquileia" like area, the Lombardy area and then Tuscany / the Papal States. It is difficult to find justifications for the split you are going to make though, and what you would name them.
Well the southern portion is easy there's the grand duchy of Tuscany which ruled large portions of the area, granted not until late EU4 period though.


Edit: the mod of "my" dujrue changes, note most of it is done in the history files.
Edit:2 This version didn't get the localization folder I will put up a version with it when I have the time.
Edit3: Oh and the flags are also missing.
 

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Lord_Bean

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Considering the fact that you want to 'Balkanize' it, maybe a look at cultural differences rather than at political structures might be of some use?

Now I know little to nothing of regional differences in Italy, and I do think every area that can be equated with something like an in-game Duchy already feels they are unique. However with some digging around online I stumbled across maps of Italian dialects that maybe create nice chunks of 'Balkanization'. Of course these dialects are modern, and probably the result of much of Italian history that has yet to unfold in 1066, but maybe it is of some use to you.

First map is the clearest, the second seems to provide some more detail for the big Northern dialectgroup.

mappa-dialetti.png


a8gHFYe.png
 

TheDungen

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Considering the fact that you want to 'Balkanize' it, maybe a look at cultural differences rather than at political structures might be of some use?

Now I know little to nothing of regional differences in Italy, and I do think every area that can be equated with something like an in-game Duchy already feels they are unique. However with some digging around online I stumbled across maps of Italian dialects that maybe create nice chunks of 'Balkanization'. Of course these dialects are modern, and probably the result of much of Italian history that has yet to unfold in 1066, but maybe it is of some use to you.

First map is the clearest, the second seems to provide some more detail for the big Northern dialectgroup.

mappa-dialetti.png


a8gHFYe.png
Thanks those are great will definitely have a closer look at them.
 

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Considering the fact that you want to 'Balkanize' it, maybe a look at cultural differences rather than at political structures might be of some use?

Now I know little to nothing of regional differences in Italy, and I do think every area that can be equated with something like an in-game Duchy already feels they are unique. However with some digging around online I stumbled across maps of Italian dialects that maybe create nice chunks of 'Balkanization'. Of course these dialects are modern, and probably the result of much of Italian history that has yet to unfold in 1066, but maybe it is of some use to you.

*snippety snip*
The problem is, those are both modern maps - Roman dialect as is today (Romanaccio) formed around the 15th century, and was closer to Neapolitan before that (something visible still today in the Southern Latium dialects); Sardinia was not yet home to those Tuscan/Genoan/Catalan linguistic island, that formed during the various ownerships from the 12th century onwards; not to forget the now-gone Dalmatic, spoken from Veglia, to Zara, to Spalato, to Ragusa, and the Istrian Friulans. Trento was more firmly Italian, due to no Austrian domain having happened yet; and in general the differences were more nuanced, in large part due to a koine Italian that had been used for a century or so and the novelty of independence still bearing little sign on the various dialects (something that would change in the later centuries).
 

Federalist girl

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I would point out that political differences are the basis for de jure kingdoms, rather than culture.

I should probably clarify that it is for the purpose of the 1066+ start dates I want it. The excharchate of ravenna has been dead for centuries by then.

Also that was sort of what I was thinking but looking at the geography both kingdoms would then be divided by the Apennines

Yes, the Appenines would cross in the middle but that's fine -- surely?

I would think that the Donation of Pepin + Spoleto boundaries would be fine for 1066 too. Basically, that whole region was de jure papal states up until the unification of Italy more or less -- the political borders shifted with the different power players, but that bit of central Italy was pretty much what the papacy considered its temporal playground even if it didn't always hold all that territory.
 

TheDungen

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Yes, the Appenines would cross in the middle but that's fine -- surely?
I have no idea I have never been to Italy, I have no idea how easy they are to cross and where it is possible to do so. I mean it wouldn't make sense to make a kingdom where it was difficult or even impossible to get from one half of it to the other.
 

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I have no idea I have never been to Italy, I have no idea how easy they are to cross and where it is possible to do so. I mean it wouldn't make sense to make a kingdom where it was difficult or even impossible to get from one half of it to the other.
The Apennines are relatively easy to cross, being as a whole less high than the Alps; still, they are no slouch either, which is why the main route to cross them was the Roman "Via Flaminia" for centuries, going from Rome to Pesaro (before continuing north to Rimini). Loss of control over this route to the Langobards was the reason for the Papal State's dogged attempts to keep a hold on the so-called Byzantine Corridor, passing further north through Perugia, once Spoleto had fallen. It's also why I keep saying that a Perugia province would really be needed to represent the area, especially during the earliest start date, but that's not relevant to the thread.

TL;dr: if the realm has both Latium and Spoleto, then yes, it has little problems holding together.