Balancing your economy is... a terrible idea?

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Nussor

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And so is playing wide, it seems. I'm currently trying a totally bonkers build with just one planet and it works perfectly. I have almost no worker jobs active and still suffer no problems with raw materials, but my alloy (4x level 2 foundries by 2300) and consumer goods (2x level 2 industries) are as good as they would be with any balanced build I previously used. My Research easily outperforms any AI empire at this point and only the advanced start even has a chance of standing up to me. I'm playing on Grand Admiral with Scaling on. Focusing production on Alloys means that I can buy whatever the hell I want on the markt, not least because of price fixing and unlimited supply.

I think the setup could be optimized by not using Life Seeded and colonizing 2~4 good planets with a specialized economy. Anything more than that just drives up your Empire Spread. At this point it seems that building disctricts is mostly useless, or even counter-productive.
 

sillyrobot

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Infinite markets force games to evolve in one of two ways; either the market prices are good enough that buying everything is optimal and self-sufficiency is a trap or the market prices are so poor the market might as well not exist except (potentially) to limit catastrophe.

From your experience and others I have read, Stellaris is currently the former.
 

caedussl

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All my recent games have seen prices on the market go too high to realistically only produce one thing. Alloys over 16/17 EC, consumer goods hovering between 5-7EC, food and minerals never below 2EC, usually between 3-4. As despoilers. (who get no market reduction).
 

Nussor

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All my recent games have seen prices on the market go too high to realistically only produce one thing.
Unless its Alloys, they can eaasily go beyound 20EC and make double the sell price than the buy of any other resource. You still get some energy and quite a lot minerals from orbital stations.
 

Longprao

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I tried to play wide with 40+ planets and balance my economy. It never worked out. I had a full dyson sphere, full matter decompressor, full mega art, but resources were still negative one or another. I used edict to boost it most of the time to sustain, and in most case I had to boost all 3. And still needed to use the market. I can't figure out what was wrong.

Later I even conquered the capital system of a FE which has huge production of everything, and it helped a bit.
 

Zenopath

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The best solution is to create vassals or subsidaries instead of going wide. Subsidiaries are really nice because they generate free energy for you in form of taxes and can expand and build bases. Pretty sure mega corp civic is meant to be played by staying at admin cap (to avoid the 50% bonus sprawl penalty) by spawning subsidiaries everywhere. They are better than feudal civic vassals.

In terms of production, you want to only produce alloys and get consumer goods from trade. Without the 15% bonus to alloy, its not viable. Food and mats are more valuable on average than energy. If fact, if you only use trade to produce consumer goods and energy, via having tons of market centers, and possibly thrifty race trait, you will probably still run close to 0 energy. And since 1 mat or 1 food tend to sell for more than 1 energy, its more productive to meet energy shortfalls via selling excess mats.

So yeah, make way more alloy than you need, sell it at outragous prices, buy whatever basic mats you might be short on, dont build civilian industries, and rely on consumer benefits trade policy and lots of clerks to offset your energy and consumer goods needs.
 

Derp

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wide works fine, yall just need to adapt
 

AlanC9

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Someone else -- Leed2, maybe -- posed about this strategy a few days ago. He doesn't even use the market; instead, he just executes direct trades with the AI.

Note that selling food also works since agriculture districts are more productive than other districts.

Personally, I've gone to using Marketplace of Ideas and getting the CG some other way. But I've always liked running up the traditions trees fast.

I don't see what wide has to do with this. More production = more trade, no?
 

zukodark

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A wider and more balanced build is certainly possible to do well, you just need to do it well. My current build is a growth-based xenophobe-materialist empire with syncretic evolution allowing you to have slave proles (prole trait is very good) as well as a science-based race. I either do technocracy for science or inwards perfection for unity and growth (and then technocracy later). Regardless I manage to make more science, unity and other materials than any other empire without even getting any large penalty, as I boost empire cap.

Why make a science nexus when you can make 2K science just with your capital planet while also producing other resources on it, plus two ecumenopoli and other worlds, on each which you can build enough unity and science to offset district penalty. Main problem with the build is that growth is so fast that its hard to even bother by the 2350s, though my early endgame crisis setting offsets this by letting me end by 2420 or something.

In essence it really is a tall build, but its a lot saner than a one-planet build. Who would have thought the empire with twice as many pops as the second-rank hive mind would produce most stuff?
 

doomwarrior

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I tried to play wide with 40+ planets and balance my economy. It never worked out. I had a full dyson sphere, full matter decompressor, full mega art, but resources were still negative one or another. I used edict to boost it most of the time to sustain, and in most case I had to boost all 3. And still needed to use the market. I can't figure out what was wrong.

Later I even conquered the capital system of a FE which has huge production of everything, and it helped a bit.
Sounds like your fleet was the reason for your budget issues :)
 

The Village Idi

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My DS is +1k or more in all the base resources and +500 or so in alloys at 2400. I literally cannot spend enough.
 

wingren013

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I haven't built a single energy district in my current game. The only ones I have were taken off the AI. So long as the sale price of minerals/food remains close to 1 there is no reason to get technician jobs. When it is regularly above 1, then energy districts are objectively harmful.
 

Dalwin

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If you are relying on the market in 2.2.2, don't get too attached to that play style. It is already harder to abuse in 2.2.3, and I think they will end up going further still before they are done.

Also, once the AI Empires eventually get their heads out of their collective asses and start using the market, you will find it harder still to run a single product economy. The market is intended to help balance your economy, not to be a complete substitute for running a balanced economy.
 
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Cry_Havok

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Other than a few consumer goods crashes after taking over large swarm planets and then genetically engineering them to be friends I have no issues with my F-Egalitarian Xenophile Empire. My planets aren't perfectly optimized, and I do run out of minerals sometimes when I go on an upgrade binge, but I am able to stay in the positives on all my incomes

Year 2419: +538 Energy, +291 Minerals (250 from a Matter Decompressor), +212 Food, +217 Consumer Goods, +596 Alloys, +6 Influence, +3k Unity, +7k science, +3 Motes, +9 Gasses, +4 Crystals. 40 Worlds, 2910 Pops, 468/543 Fleet Cap, with no edicts running.

Minerals seem to be the worst to keep a positive balance on, but they at least do have an edict.
 

Incompetent

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Outcompeting the AI doesn't really mean much in 2.2. On research for instance, your one-planet empire is never going to keep up with an empire that has +100% tech costs but has a fully-developed tech-world (makes about 1K science points of each kind per month). Bearing in mind how much empire sprawl +100% tech costs represents, a full tech-world with level 3 buildings is not even all that expensive for an empire of that size. The reality of 2.2 is that as you colonize more planets and fill them up, your economic power grows much faster than the costs do.

On specializing your economy though, I half-agree. It's not ideal to fall short in lots of things at once, as you end up having to do some specific trades with the AI (which tend to fall through because the AI can't afford the trade any more) or get stung by the market fee if you're exchanging things via energy. I don't think deliberately specializing your entire empire to one resource is a good way to go (specialized planets, yes, but you give different planets different specializations); in particular, you don't want to reject too many raw deposits in favour of spamming city districts everywhere. It's tempting to invest very heavily in alloys, because the AI is so bad at making alloys and so enthusiastic about spamming corvettes that the market price sometimes goes very high; but if you do it on a large enough scale, you will eventually crash the alloy price, and then your whole economy is unsustainable. It's good to sell surplus alloys for a boost when the price is high and you don't need a bigger fleet, but not good if you're having to constantly sell alloys just to maintain the economy.

On the other hand, you will naturally have a bias in your raw goods production based on your homeworld type (hot -> energy, cold -> minerals, wet -> food), which could be enhanced by civics such as Mining Guilds or Agrarian Idyll. The market means you can go along with this bias rather than trying to fight it: you can just sell the excess food/minerals, or use the excess energy to buy things, and it all levels out. Later in the game, you will colonize other types of planets and have enough of all the raw resources.

I haven't built a single energy district in my current game. The only ones I have were taken off the AI. So long as the sale price of minerals/food remains close to 1 there is no reason to get technician jobs. When it is regularly above 1, then energy districts are objectively harmful.

I'd phrase it a bit differently: in the long run, minerals become the key bottleneck, so you want to exploit as many mineral districts as possible (food is debatable, as its market price tends to be pretty low, and beyond a certain level it simply isn't that useful a resource to be stockpiling); if you can build it, the Matter Decompressor is generally better than the Dyson Sphere. But there will still be hot, windy planets with a lot of energy districts and not much else; surely in those places you would build generator districts, rather than just ignoring the deposits and building nothing but city districts.
 

ArmChairAttila

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I bet a lot of this "I'm in the red angst" is just the user over building or upgrading way to many buildings to quickly. I screwed my very first 2.2 game doing exactly that. I am now much more conservative and take more time with my upgrades and building patterns.

I don't tank my economy now but I can still come close if I get too greedy.
 

Wolfgang I

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If you are relying on the market in 2.2.2, don't get too attached to that play style. It is already harder to abuse in 2.2.3, and I think they will end up going further still before they are done.

Also, once the AI Empires eventually get their heads out of their collective asses and start using the market, you will find it harder still to run a single product economy. The market is intended to help balance your economy, not to be a complete substitute for running a balanced economy.
The internal market is still completly broken though if you buy/sell enough of something. This might explain why some people experince a different economic game because the genocidal civics keep using it.
You can profit from this by accident without doing it intentionaly unlike the other infinite resource exploit I know of.
On top of that, because of how purging works, moving all xeno pops you aquire to one planet can fuel an incredible strong economy once you get going because purging takes forever and the output of the resource producing purge types is rather good without the need for housing, cg and food. You can just buy the stuff you can't get from purging on the internal market.


Someone else -- Leed2, maybe -- posed about this strategy a few days ago. He doesn't even use the market; instead, he just executes direct trades with the AI.

Note that selling food also works since agriculture districts are more productive than other districts.

Personally, I've gone to using Marketplace of Ideas and getting the CG some other way. But I've always liked running up the traditions trees fast.

I don't see what wide has to do with this. More production = more trade, no?

Trading with other empires seems more effective at least on GA as a normal empire as the AIs drive the prices of stuff up. The Machine FE is still the most reliable trading partner as it does not care if one of your monthly trades ends because you used all of your food on decisions by accident(even if you have a monthly+ that is high enough getting your stockpile lower than the amount you are selling per month will break trades).
Edit: I prefer monthly trades because it requires less micro if you just set a 30 year trade up .
 
Last edited:

Zenopath

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couple random comments i felt like replying to

I haven't built a single energy district in my current game. The only ones I have were taken off the AI. So long as the sale price of minerals/food remains close to 1 there is no reason to get technician jobs. When it is regularly above 1, then energy districts are objectively harmful.

This is probably a good idea overall, think energy production is worse thing to spend your workers on in general, but maybe like 1 energy specialized world in your empire with energy grid and specialization bonus makes you a bit less reliant on market, especially if you not generating enough trade to pay your upkeep. It is possible to drive down prices in a situation where you suddenly want a lot of energy for edicts and curator and terraforming etc. But only if you are consistently running a huge negative energy per month, which could be hard to deal with.

Outcompeting the AI doesn't really mean much in 2.2.

I recommend playing the 2.2.3 experimental with glavius enhanced ai mod for experimental, the AI is so much better...

If you are relying on the market in 2.2.2, don't get too attached to that play style. It is already harder to abuse in 2.2.3, and I think they will end up going further still before they are done.

Also, once the AI Empires eventually get their heads out of their collective asses and start using the market, you will find it harder still to run a single product economy. The market is intended to help balance your economy, not to be a complete substitute for running a balanced economy.

Well, yes and no, the price is harder to abuse in 2.2.3, but actually energy is a lot more worthless as things tend to always be running at more than 1 per unit. Alloy in particular is always really expensive, because the Ai likes building ships and doesnt like building enough alloy factories. 2.2.3 encourages the ai to use the market more, which actually means alloy prices are higher in 2.2.3 than 2.2.2. If anything i would say the "fix" is that its impossible to really forcibly drive the price down enough to be able to make a profit on the buy side, so at least alloys are always excellent to make and raw energy is generally bad...