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Jun 17, 2018
Building on these discussions on this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/balancing-flying-and-floating-units.1122078/

Flying, Floating and Swimming units have a big mobility and versatility advantage on Water, on Continent and even more on Island maps.

Some of the proposals:
make the ships cheaper and easier to get so embarked units are able to stop flying stacks, maybe add a spell that gives MP to embarked units

phirpo said:
Advanced seafaring gives addional +3mp to embarked units
With then 30mp they can move 5hex during combat and are not that handicapped anymore. Whats more, with 30mp on water they are not that easily to catch by flying/floating units with only 30mp(dragons and gryphon riders) and others. The very fact that embarking consumes all mp and disembarking requires a lot of mp, is such an immense drawback (next to the „embarked“ trait), that you normally have to exclude them from your flying/floating/swimming stack, because they cannot keep up. This will still be the case with 30mp. But at least they tiny bit less terrible.

Also proposals included in the list considered for the balance mod:
Swimming now uses 4 MP/hex on the strategic map. Sea Creatures get Natural Swimming and still uses 3 MP/hex.
Sea Creatures do not take attack of opportunity when moving near other units (like Flyers near walking units).

Flying and Floating units get a "Flying over water" penalty of -1 defense, -1 resistance when flying over water. Mariner cancels that malus.

Personally, I think it makes sense that Embarked units are the weaker on Water. And I think the strongest units on Water should be Sea Creature, then Swimming units, then Flying/Floating, then Embarked. So I am unconvinced by proposals that seek to change this pick order.
Maybe Embarking/Disembarking could be made slightly easier (e.g. 10 MP for Embarking, and 4 MP for Disembarking instead of 12 and 6 MP respectively). And I also agree with making Flying/Floating units more difficult to get or maintain, and increasing counters to them. I also agree to boost Sea Creatures because the fact they can't go on land makes them useless in most situations.


Jun 17, 2018
phirpo's answer:
Somebody here should really play more islands maps and then judge about this proposal again... The difficulties posed by embarking/disembarking & embarked are really beyond good and evil, they are really an exclusion factor.

My answer:
If Embarking/Disembarking is the issue, then let's work on that by reducing the cost of Embarking/Disembarking. Giving +3 MP does not solve this issue.


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Oct 4, 2018
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I am with Phirpo that increasing the MP isn't the right way. Also I agree with Hiliandan that the order of strenght should remain in general (sea creatures stronger than swimming units stronger than flying/floating units stronger than embarked units). Maybe there shouldn't be a difference between flying/floating untis and smimming units.

Reducing the MP costs for embarking/disembarking is an opportunity but I doubt that is it enough. The main point is that embarking/disembarking costs all remaining MP. If we won't change that I see no real chance to strenghten units without swimming, flying or floating. But...if we are willing to change it here is a proposal.

I have never understand why embarking and disembarking did not cost the same amount of MP. For me it makes no difference and it should take the same time i.e. MP. Embarking/disembarking costs 12 MP but did not drain all of the remaining MP. That means a unit with 28 MP can move over a river in one turn if it stands directly at the coast (12 MP for embarking, 4 for the river hex and another 12 MP for disembarking).


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I'm for GC61a and GC61b.
Do not hope much about changing of embarking and disembarking moving cost, because I can't find in editor where are these values located. I can change bonus from mariner though...


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What about giving Sea Creatures the Fishing ability as well? I'm sure that on Athla, there's more fish than on our world, and that salt water has rejuvenating virtues.