Balancing Temple Holdings Suggestion?

[Parsidius]

First of all, I love this mod, and I've been enjoying playing it; it really adds a lot to the game.

I've noticed that I like the way that the buildings are set up in HIP/PB, but I still can't help but think that Temple Holdings are underpowered in comparison.

Castle holdings are useful for troops now that each building gives a boost to retinue size. I never felt much need to spend on buildings, since my retinue troops were generally more powerful. But with that change, and the inclusion of ClearCombat, it actually makes me want to spend money on constructing castle holdings and their buildings.

City holdings provide plenty of money, as before. But universities seem far too expensive compared to the Centers of Trade line, which grant seven times as many technology points in addition to the spread rates, gold, and other smaller bonuses.

Temple holdings seem to be in a bad position from the start; their only real bonus in terms of money is the four extra base gold they have. In terms of troops, they have fewer buildings and no cavalry. They have a small tech bonus (which point for point is more expensive than saving up for a Center of Trade) and have piety (which really does not seem to impact very much.) I think the problem with having a holding that is a balance between two extremes (troops and money) is that there seem to be little middle ground between being worse than the more specialized holdings is that it won't perform either function that well, or it will perform it well enough that the player would be indifferent to specialization. Worse yet, the player cannot play as a theocracy, so there is even less incentive to build temples as opposed to cities (as a Republic) or castles (as a noble.)

I think a better solution might be to have the Temple have its own specialty, such that focusing on them might be a good strategy on its own. My idea was that maybe Temples could be the hubs for advancing technology as opposed to cities/centers of trade, through the following:

1.) Eliminate the University line for cities (very expensive for a relatively small benefit) or rename it as a building that produces some amount of gold and some amount of economic tech points at a much lower price tag (maybe a Guild of some sort.)
2.) Remove the tech point bonuses for centers of trade; keep the spread and gold as is, and keep the price high. (It should remain a high ticket item for historical flavor, as a way to burn excess gold, and to incentivize building it in the capital for spread.)
3.) Make up for the tech point reductions in other buildings by placing them into Temple University line. Perhaps the cost in gold for the building would remain relatively low as it is now in order to compensate for the expense of building a new Temple holding.

I think there is enough historically in terms of religious involvement in education and universities in this time period to justify such a choice, along with the fact that the Learning stat is tied to the religious member of the Council in-game. The only concern I might have would be that counties with Centers of Trade might not be as advanced as before, but I think the spread bonuses would be significant enough on their own that this would keep them from falling behind, and still allow them to be major vehicles for the spreading of tech.

Anyway, just wondering what anyone might think of this.

 

[zijistark]

Anyway, just wondering what anyone might think of this.

Thanks. I think your thoughts are very observant.

With regard to your final suggestion (as I see it, make temples [somewhat] more strategically relevant by removing some of the lower-tier CoT tech points from cities and piling them into the temple line), I'm not sure that I can agree.

Since you're forced to build at least one temple in every county anyway, the net effect on the total game would just be to boost tech spread globally, perhaps more in areas with provinces with fewer holding slots. This is indeed the opposite of the point of the high-tier Centers of Trade: to promote historical spread of technology. The Bishropic/Mosque had no particularly major correlation with technologic growth (more than an agrarian feudal property, though). Population settlement and the spread of better practices through exposure in higher population cities was highly correlated with the spread of technology. Indeed, this was the economic shift that led to the Renaissance following the game period.

Besides, if you want to make temples more useful strategically, I just wouldn't pick tech spread. It's not very powerful as something the player can strategically influence. The base rate of spread is already pretty high, especially coastal (sky-high). And you can't control the fact that the AI will just build whatever it feels like building (temples, castles, cities), so the net effect upon the game world aside from the player from spread stuff is really going to be quite minimal unless you have a massive and contiguous demesne somehow.

However, with regard to your general observation, yeah, temples do kind of suck right now. What else could we do about that? Are they perhaps unique in their religious authority / piety aspects? How about potential income from antipopes or antipopes-gone-vassal-popes?

 

[M@ni@c]

It would be neat if you could found temples with piety. That way they wouldn't compete for the same resource (gold) as castles and cities.

 

[Arko]

It would be neat if you could found temples with piety. That way they wouldn't compete for the same resource (gold) as castles and cities.

the turnaround would be doing that through decision/event.

 

[Parsidius]

Thanks. I think your thoughts are very observant.

My reasoning is that the ecclesiastical involvement in Western European education and science was substantial; for instance, the involvement of the Church in founding Catholic universities and scholarly endeavors (case in point, Thomas Aquinas' work at the University of Paris), and the scientific work of monks like Roger Bacon. It is admittedly a prima facie justification, maybe not one that is culturally universal, and you are correct that urban density is a prime driver of technological advancement.

As for religious differences, I think I would prefer some benefit that would be available to all cultures as opposed to just Catholics. Since tech is out, maybe some expansion on the use of piety would be an acceptable alternative so that it does not just accumulate without end. Since religion has a powerful effect on legitimization, what about some temporary bonuses to opinions, or to stats, that can occur once the leader passes a level of piety? That way, the player won't be materialisticly squeezing troops and money out of their temple vassals, and some degree of mysticism can be maintained.

 

[Parsidius]

On the idea of increasing temple power, I was thinking that there might be an event where each temple vassal has a chance to give their liege a tiered modifier that will boost the martial, diplomacy, learning, and stewardship attributes. This is to simulate strong relations between the church and the ruler, since the ruler has granted the church certain rights (represented in game by having more temple holdings in the realm.) The stat boosts represent the use of the church's administration, learning and knowledge, and the legitimacy that its friendship offers the ruler. This would allow temple holdings to fill their own advantage apart from the castle's troops and the city's gold/technology such that the player might actually want to construct them, or at least would not be disappointed to see that the AI has filled up a province with temple holdings. Of course, this also brings the disadvantage that the player is deprived of troops, gold, and tech from constructing the other types of holdings (importantly, the realm could remain more backwards technologically than if the player had constructed more cities.)

In addition to a greater chance for triggering for each temple vassal the player has, the event chance could also be increased by piety, moral authority, and opinion, such that the user would need to have active vassal management in order to reap the full benefits of such a bonus (like they would to get the maximum troops and gold out of their holdings.) I've written up a rough draft code for such an event, if anyone would be interested in seeing it.