Balancing spies

[Solipsism]

Type: Gameplay
Reproducability: NA
Severity: Tweak/Minor

About the balancie of spy missions:
Although I've heard complaints about counterfeiting being overpowered, I don't think it is really overpowered at all. For example, getting a 12 inflation stability hit would take perhaps 24 spies if your country is especially vulnerable. 24 spies is about 2400 dukats. 2400 dukats is a terrifying 100.000 - 200.000 cavalry. Also I guess minting 2400 extra would perhaps cost you about 7% of inflation for a decent sized country, if you want to look at it that way. Besides, getting 24 spies isn't easy and infiltrate spy ring would raise the costs quite a bit. If you nerf spies then they will have no use at all, as there are few cases when 100.000 cavalry isn't simply better.

Lowering the stability is a bit on the cheap side though, so a 50 - 200% increase in the price might be in order for that one, and/or decrease the chance of success. Making it harder would most importantly make it possibe to (partly) avoid spies by keeping your stability high. This could require some balancing of the stability to get balanced, possibly by increasing the stability effect on mission success chance.

But then I would also suggest making the other spy actions more efficient and dramatic to make spies worthwhile. How often does anyone really use privateers, incite revolt and desertion? What are the odds of a privateer sent against spain costing them more than the 25 ducats you spent? Reduce the cost to 0-10 ducats (it still costs you a spy). Reducing reputation is also far too hard for too little benefit, and increasing it would make players more reluctant to keep their bb just one or two points below max. Spies should be useful, like merchants or colonists. You just get about ½ a year if you don't spend economy and a valuable idea to focus on them anyway.

With these modifications, I think spying would turn out excellent. One of the bigger drawbacks of low stability would be that foreign agents can freely infiltrate, bribe and work in your realm, which really makes sense.

 

[fraese]

1 counterfeiting spy a year sent in January from census tax with no inflation = economic devastation within a couple decades on your chosen target.

Merchants despised = even cheaper, and means target loses all merchants within a couple of months around the world.

Cavalry otoh can't be built without paying maintenance, running into support issues, and using manpower.

Not sure this is the right place for this sort of post though.

 

[Duuk]

Personally, I think they're fine as-is.

 

[unmerged(73643)]

Seems to me that spies ruin the game. Think of france being spied spammed by burgundy, aragon, castille, and portugal. In 10-20 years not only would it have 50 percent inflation, but stability would remain at -3. Also consider a 100 dollar spy can cause thousands of dollars in stability repayment.

Fraese also makes a good point that there is an upkeep for cavalry, and 100-200k calvalry upkeep would be impossible for most countries.

 

[AndrewT]

I'll move you to the general forum for more discussion,as there is no agreed bug here.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Yup, nerf sow discontent. Make it dependend on enemy stab costs or his size. Otherwise you pay 100$ to make your enemy pay 10000. AND if you and your allies spam the enemy, he will never ever get over -2 stab again. Never. Ever.

Merchants despised is brutal, as said above. Even with total tech/NI advantage you loose merchants, everyone "just trading" without maxed TE is doomed.

Crearting cores is evil. Normally you have to wait 50 years and get -30% tax income for this time (in the conquered province). In addition it is gamey. You can get a core on a province conquered by rebels. Guess whos side they will join if theres no other core on the province? With this i manged to get about 2 dozens of provinces in the new world...
Either change the action to get ONLY a CB against an enemy (for the cores, there is an event!) or vastly tweak the costs.
From ~1550 on you can spam this action ($$$ wise).
In adddition, core-conquering might affects your BB gain, but i am not sure about that.

Currency counterfeit is also rather cheap for the effects... 1% inflation needs 10 years to recover from, if some countries can coordinate this against you, you are doomed. (Imagine: 4 player led countries in a MP game use it against a huge player controlled major...). Once you hit GOV 23 (Tax accessor) it becomes less powerful, but still useful.

Other spyactions are ratehr useless. Pirates for example do almost no damage and may even end up in the enemy fleet. You pay 25$ to get him a caravel for free. Ouch. Ont he other hand they are deadly for pagans, no chance to get them... Maybe there should be a chance of random fleet size, so you can get from 1 to 5 pirates (though it needs increase costs then).

Troop desertion is useful against any uber-stack and since the AI now guards conuered forts a lot longer, its sorta gamey: use on an enemy province at your border, DOW, conquer province (storm), retreat, wait for is uber stack to re-occupy the province. Look like his army sizes goes dooooooown.
Still, a balanced option imho.

Supporting rebels is good. Turbo annex anyone? If used with create core and sow discontent, you can easily get a lot of new world provices without a war...

Maybe the slider effects on spies should have a little more impact, esp. spy defence boost by free subjects.

 

[berhaven]

Seems to me that spies ruin the game. Think of france being spied spammed by burgundy, aragon, castille, and portugal. In 10-20 years not only would it have 50 percent inflation, but stability would remain at -3. Also consider a 100 dollar spy can cause thousands of dollars in stability repayment.

Well, not really different from the damage economic and piracy guerrilla brought to RL Spain around 1600 o

 

[Wetew]

Spies are good as they are I think. The only thing I would like to change is the cheating AI, because it's annoying when Morea could spam me with spies despitte them being a one province minor

 

[Palle]

I agree, no need to change spy actions a lot. Maybe the weakest actions could be a little cheaper and "Fabricate claims" could be changed to just give you CB for a few months instead of a core.

Some spy actions sound very strong, but like Solipsism pointed out in the opening post, they are very expensive if you wish to have much effect. Spies are very hard to get, you either have to be very mercantile or you have to choose Espionage NI. Most players don't like those choices since it reduces your colonist and merchant increase or denies you one, more lucrative, National Idea. If the spies are nerfed too much there is no choice, you simply don't need them.

 

[Solipsism]

I agree, no need to change spy actions a lot. Maybe the weakest actions could be a little cheaper and "Fabricate claims" could be changed to just give you CB for a few months instead of a core.

Some spy actions sound very strong, but like Solipsism pointed out in the opening post, they are very expensive if you wish to have much effect. Spies are very hard to get, you either have to be very mercantile or you have to choose Espionage NI. Most players don't like those choices since it reduces your colonist and merchant increase or denies you one, more lucrative, National Idea. If the spies are nerfed too much there is no choice, you simply don't need them.

Can we all agree on the following?
Sow discontent should be nerfed quite a bit. Makes sense since stability is one of the counters to spies.. Perhaps increase difficulty to 7 or 8, same as sabotage reputation has now.

Pirates should be cheaper and more powerful.

Fabricate claims should be more expensive.

What do you think about sabotage reputation? Ever seen it used effectively?

Is incite against merchants too powerful?

 

[JaxomCA]

I think fabricate claims, assassinate advisor and sow discontent should require having the espionage idea to be usable. Maybe counterfeit and sabotage reputation should require the idea too.

Merchants despised is an immersion breaker. You go to war with a north american tribe and suddenly no one in the whole world wants to trade with you? That should really only affect the local COT but there is no way to setup the effect like that.

The other spy actions seems fine to me. Some of them should have a longer duration.

 

[knaak250]

sabotage rep is only usefull against players, as the AI usely has a low bb.

in a multiplayer game i got a fellow player into a bb war

 

[Darlor]

I find this discussion very akin to when any new risk is identified in life. The initial response by a portion of the population is to try to eliminate it without understanding what the true level of risk and potential costs and benefits actually are. I suppose that in multiplayer the risk is higher that players could gang up on someone who has an advantage or has caused them problems but how is that different than real life? How many of us has actually had it happen to them since the patch has been released? I do suspect that there will be a need to fine tune the costs and effects. I am sure that the programers are thinking about that. But to jump into banning or radically retuning a feature that I am sure the design team has tested and felt would add depth to the game, just because there is a potential risk without having experienced it, seems a bit rash. Besides, I expect that if it was happening to you or me, we would rather quickly find an appropriate in game response to deal with the issue . I personally like the new depth, challenge, and added strategic options that spies add to the game.

 

[Solipsism]

I would suggest the following:
Increase difficulty for sow discontent to 8.

Pirates should cost 7 ducats.

Fabricate claims should be more expensive, about 250, and more difficult. 6?

Sabotage reputation should give 3 bb. It's almost impossible to get a success rate above 25% anyway, which means the one sending the spies get far more bb as it is, regardless of their spying abilities.

Incite merchant penalty should be reduced to 15%.

Effect and price of counterfeit should be halved. Each spy causes 0.5% inflation for about 50 dukats. As success rate is about 50% this would mean about 7.5% inflation per decade for a completely specialized spying nation against a vulnerable nation.

 

[unmerged(514)]

@ Solipsism

If you are interested in a rebalanced and expanded covert action system, see my sig...

 

[Solipsism]

@ Solipsism

If you are interested in a rebalanced and expanded covert action system, see my sig...

I'll give it a try. Thanks!



So do the above suggestions look good to everyone else, btw?

 

[Mr. Domino]

. Besides, I expect that if it was happening to you or me, we would rather quickly find an appropriate in game response to deal with the issue . I personally like the new depth, challenge, and added strategic options that spies add to the game.

But how do you deal with the threat from spies? Is there a way to deal with this issue?

In MP someone builds a giant calvary army, you build one, or fortresses, or get a big alliance, or try to bribe him off. The counter to spies is....moving the slider towards free subjects?

If the other guy marches his army into my capital and I lose a war, well there were a lot of things I could have done to stop it and maybe more importantly hopefully it was fun getting there. Ditto for if he tries to get monopolies everywhere (trade wars/embargoes), or build up lots of colonies (competing for colonies or go land/focus on the continent). IMHO these different options and strategies create depth.

But if he just throws a spy my way every other year, outside of killing him, I can't stop it. And again, I do think the cost benefit analysis is clearly in his favor. I can of course start spamming him with my own spies, assuming I have the right slider settings, but that seems more like MAD than a real counter-strategy.

 

[fraese]

I'll give it a try. Thanks!



So do the above suggestions look good to everyone else, btw?

They are interesting, can't say I have calculated all the coefficients of the rebalancing you propose but one thing stands out: merchants despised at 15% trade competitiveness will still be enough to kick out your merchants around the world most of the time, and remains by far the most powerful spy action against trading nations, which most MP powerhouses are. My solution was to change it to affect trade income; that way it hurts the bottom line for the duration of the effect, but does not destroy years of carefully constructed enterprise overnight. The exact value is debatable, but I think affecting trade income rather than competitiveness is the way to go.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Can we all agree on the following?]/quote]

Sow discontent should be nerfed quite a bit. Makes sense since stability is one of the counters to spies.. Perhaps increase difficulty to 7 or 8, same as sabotage reputation has now.

Yes, nerf pls!

Pirates should be cheaper and more powerful.

Not cheaper, just give em a few more vessels.

Fabricate claims should be more expensive.

Nope, just make it creating a CB against your enemy.

What do you think about sabotage reputation? Ever seen it used effectively?

Nope, never used it, but if spammed in MP by multiple nations, I guess its mean.

Is incite against merchants too powerful?

Not that overpowered, but it is quite devestating for the low price. If your victim is only "medicore" tradenation, it will suffer. A lot. Really lot.

 

[frpe02]

Shouldn't spy masters give an increase in spy defence as well? That would make more sense and give the player a mean to defend against spies IMHO.