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Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
515
1
Three RG polls still open, please vote if you haven't yet (all the races have been covered by the polls now):
- Halflings
- High Elves
- Tigrans

Let's assess:
Frostling
A poll was also run among competitive PBEM players: http://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=42 I compare the results of the poll and of the assessment below:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"Barracks generate +50 Happiness"
Similar to Orc economy RG2 (+50 happiness and +5 gold for Arena) or Dwarf economy RG1 (+75 happiness for Stone Wall), except that for Village (and above) starts, the throne starts with Barracks so it doesn't have to be built.
In early game, even +25 happiness can make a difference when you rush production. The Throne usually start at ~280 happiness, and thus having at least +20 happiness means you can rush at least once without going below the 200 happiness threshold.
So let's assume only the Throne has Barracks and that it allows it to cross a threshold. If we consider an average income of 30-35 gold/turn, the gain is about 1*30*0.2 = 6 gold/turn.
The bonus does scale up a bit late game but not too much. Slightly below target.


MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive the equivalent to 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Frostling Harpoon Thrower gets +10 Health.”.
The boost is not even equivalent to a bit more than 1 medal (4-5 medals of HP but 0 medals of damage, defense, resistance and 0 new ability). Below target.

RG1 assessment: military < economy
RG1 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> disagreement but in truth, the assessment is almost similar for both, they're both Slightly below/Below target; and looking at the details of votes, economy is indeed slightly on top.

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“All Walls and the Glacial Totem are 50 Gold cheaper.”.
To assess this, we need to assess how many Walls and Glacial Totems are going to be built. At best, it's 3 per city with in average 4 cities by RG2, i.e. a maximum gain of 3*4*50=300 gold, over 20 turns, i.e. a maximum gain of 15 gold/turn. Obviously, this scenario is over-optimistic as all cities do NOT build 2 Walls and a Glacial Totem. So: Significantly below target.


MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Frostling Royal Guard gains Life Stealing and +1 Defense.”.
It boosts only 1 unit. It does give 1 new (pretty good) ability but only +1 def (lacking +2 damage, +8 HP).
Below target.

RG2 assessment: economy < military
RG2 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement.

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Temples generate +10 Mana.”.
If we consider that 1 out of 2.5 cities have a Temple (and average number of cities = 7.5) and use a conversion ratio of 2 gold = 1 mana, the gain is 2*10*7.5/2.5=60 gold/turn. We can ignore the cost of building the Temples as they would surely be built anyway. Slightly below target.


MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade with the equivalent of 2 medals (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
Frostling Mammoth Riders are 15% cheaper and deal +2 Physical melee damage.”.
It benefits only the T2 and not the T3, so it should probably boost 2-3 units as the criteria says. The +2 melee damage is only equivalent to less than 0.5 medals (as noted for Human RG3).
The 15% cost reduction saves 16.5 gold (16 I guess?). If we assume 3 Mammoths are built every turn (as we did for Draconian Support for military RG3), then it adds up to 48 gold/turn, i.e. a bit more than 50% of the economy RG. It is probably optimistic because Mammoths usually require 2 turns to be built.
All in all, it adds up to (0.5/2)/2+0.5=0.6125 of the expected boost. Below target.


RG3 assessment: economy > military
RG3 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> disagreement, but if we look in details at the results, more people go for economy so it's actually mostly in agreement. And the two boosts are quite situational, which probably explains the 50/50: it depends on whether you go for Temple and mana, or for Mammoths (or for neither! which probably happens often).

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
The Frost Castle:
  • Is 100 gold cheaper
  • Generates +5 gold, +5 mana and +50 happiness

Frostling Ice queen is 25% cheaper to build."
If we take similar assumptions as Orc RG4 and Draconian RG4, the 100 gold cheaper is a saving of 10 gold/turn. And the extra gold and mana over 3 cities gives: 3x(5+5x2) = 45 gold/turn.
The +50 happiness is hard to assess in late game (e.g. with Terraforming, the cities are potentially already Cheerful).
Frostling Ice Queens cheaper to build: if we assume 1 is built every turn (taking into account the fact that it's almost impossible to 1-turn them), the saving is (150+20*2)*0.15=28.5 gold/turn. Overall, that's 73.5 gold/turn with other benefits from the +50 happiness:
Significantly below target.


MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
Frost Weapons now Inflict Frostbite.”.
The following (Frostling) units have Frost Weapons: Assassins, Apprentices, Crusaders, Exalted, Berserkers, Monster Hunters, Phalanxes, Warbreeds, Manticore Riders, Death Bringers, Ice Scapers, Raiders, Harpoon Throwers. Some key units do not have it: Mammoth Riders, Royal Guards, White Witches, Queens... Overall, I do not see a 7 Frost strength attack giving -2 def for 3 turns changing the results of 18 vs 18 battles. It basically translates into a "maybe +2 physical damage". Significantly below target.


RG4 assessment: economy = military
RG4 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> agreement.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Grand Palace provide +15 Gold, +15 Mana, +15 Knowledge and +15 Production.”.
I have seen a Grand Palace built only in 1 of my games, it seems pretty rare to me. The +15 RP is likely to be useless because by the time, you get there, you have no research to do any more. If we assume 1 Grand Palace is built, and we take optimistic assumptions of 1 mana = 2 gold, 1 RP = 3 gold and 1 turn saved every 2 turns thanks to the +15 production (quite unlikely), with a total gold income of 120 for that city, that's a gain of 15+15*2+15*3+120*0.5/2=120 gold/turn. So, possibly, with those optimistic assumption and 2 Grand Palace, it would meet the target. However, that seems wildly optimistic, so I'd say: Below target.


MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
Frostling Support units gain +2 damage and Frost Aura.".
This is partly situational / class dependent because you might not build Ice Queens and White Witches and may not play a class with Supports. But when you do play it, it's pretty good, the Frost Aura is excellent and the +2 melee and range frost damage is almost on par with the boost required, on its own. Meets target.


RG5 assessment: economy < military
RG5 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement

After this assessment, I think the following criterias need to be revised:
- RG2 military: +1.5 medals (and not 2)
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
515
1
I re-assessed Goblin RG based on the updated criteria and edited the post about Goblin RG: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...cing-racial-governance.1201983/#post-25638617

Goblins
In the end, we have the following problematic RG upgrades, and associated suggestions...

I think for the Goblins we could try to distinguish between two main RG strategies:
Double down: play on your strength: swarm enemies with cheap and expandable units built very fast, grow population...
Diversify: increase resilience, surprise your enemy, colonize unexpected areas (Volcanic)

  • RG1 military: Goblin Untouchable gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint - Below target.
  1. Goblin Irregulars get Projectile Resistance
  2. Goblin Untouchable also gets Volunteer, or cost less to produce (that wouldn't make them better at fight, only more numerous)
  3. Goblin Untouchable also gets Lucky (one may wonder how they can survive that long, being nicknames "untouchable" even by Goblins)
  4. Goblin Untouchable also gets Wetland Concealment sooner (at Bronze or Silver instead of Gold), even Cave Concealment at Gold (remember that all the other standard T1s have it inherently)
  5. Goblin Swarm Darter also gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint
  6. Goblin Untouchable also gets +4 HP, +1 defense and +1 Blight ranged damage
Reminder of the criteria:
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) the equivalent of 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful

1/ would boost class units: Martyrs, Scouts, Monster Hunters, Scoundrels, Engineers. Except for Warlord, that's at best 2 units and it's about 0.75 medal ((1+0.5)/2) so almost there but probably slightly insufficient.
2/, 3/, and 4/ makes it 1.5 medal but combine a lot of abilities on a T1 so personally I'd be against.
5/ and 6/ fit the bill perfectly in terms of boost level.

Current votes:
2. Goblin Untouchable also gets Volunteer, or cost less to produce
AGAINST: keika (not for RG1)

3. Goblin Untouchable also gets Lucky
AGAINST: keika (trait from other race)

4. Goblin Untouchable also gets Wetland Concealment sooner (at Bronze or Silver instead of Gold), even Cave Concealment at Gold (remember that all the other standard T1s have it inherently)
FOR: marcuspers (3rd choice), keika (for Wetland Concealment)
AGAINST: Hiliadan

5. Goblin Swarm Darter also gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint
FOR: gladis, El Lobo, Hiliadan, marcuspers (1st choice)
AGAINST: keika (Sprint = Tigran trait and not for Archers, also Projectile Resistance not adapated lore-wise, better have additional damage or poison ability)

6. Goblin Untouchable also gets +4 HP, +1 defense and +1 Blight ranged damage
FOR: marcuspers (2nd best), Hiliadan
  • RG2 military: Irregulars get +5 Health and Goblin Swarm Darter gets +10 Health - Below target.
  1. Irregulars also get +2 MP
  2. Infantry also gets +5 HP
  3. Irregulars also get +1 def and +1 ranged primary damage and Goblin Swarm Darter also gets +1 def, +1 res and +1 ranged primary damage
  4. Irregulars get +5 HP and Goblin Swarm Darters get +10 HP, +1 def, +1 res and +1 ranged primary damage
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
1/ a bit complicated to assess! Probably still too weak.
2/ brings only the equivalent of +2.5/10 medal, so still missing 2.5/10 medal.
3/ fits the bill perfectly in terms of boost level.

WARNING (18 April 2020): it seems RG2 military was not assessed properly (as also warned by the poll disagreeing): MH and Assassins were not taken into account in the assessment of the +5 HP for Irregulars. So I added option 4. I haven't re-assessed everything yet.

Current votes:
1. Irregulars also get +2 MP
AGAINST: marcuspers (would boost MH so no), keika

2. Infantry also gets +5 HP
FOR: gladis (with also +1 def for Infantry and Irregulars)
AGAINST: marcuspers (not very good), keika

3. Irregulars also get +1 def and +1 ranged primary damage and Goblin Swarm Darter also gets +1 def, +1 res and +1 ranged primary damage
FOR: El Lobo, marcuspers
AGAINST: gladis (too "complicated"), keika (it buffs Assassins and Monster Hunters; buffs Marauders or Butchers instead)

4. Irregulars get +5 HP and Goblin Swarm Darters get +10 HP, +1 def, +1 res and +1 ranged primary damage
FOR: Hiliadan, gladis, El Lobo, keika (boost too high compared to other RG)
  • RG3 economy: - Your Goblins no longer dislike or hate Tropical or Volcanic terrain - Slightly below target.
  1. Shrines also provide +75 Happiness.
  2. Goblins also get Cave Foraging.
RG3 eco is clearly a diversify RG so I tried to keep it that way with 1/: it does not play on population or production.
2/ is suggested by Rodmar and does not really follow that logic.

Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
1/ +75 happiness is hard to assess because in many cases it has no effect, but it can help settle unfriendly places. In any cases, it will probably not provide more than +40 gold/turn so probably stay within the target (since the current RG boost was estimated to provide +45 gold/turn).
2/ is not really an economic bonus, personally I'm against it, it's too strong.

Current votes:
1. Shrines also provide +75 Happiness.
FOR: gladis (but Store House instead of Shrines), El Lobo

2. Goblins also get Cave Foraging.
AGAINST: marcuspers (too weak)

  • RG3 military: Goblin Big Beetle gets Disgusting Stench and +5 Health - Below target.
  1. Goblin Big Beetle has Fast Healing (because of the mount's physiology), and/or an explosive poisoned death (when the beetle's belly spills ichor around)
  2. Goblin Big Beetle also gets +12 HP (in total), +1 def, +1 res, +1 physical and +1 blight melee damage
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units with the equivalent of 2 medals to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
1/ probably fits the bill if it is both abilities.
2/ fits the bill perfectly in terms of boost level.

Current votes:
1. Goblin Big Beetle has Fast Healing (because of the mount's physiology), and/or an explosive poisoned death (when the beetle's belly spills ichor around)
FOR: gladis
AGAINST: Hiliadan (in the end I'm unsure it fits the bill + Explosive Death is bad for AI)

2. Goblin Big Beetle also gets +12 HP (in total), +1 def, +1 res, +1 physical and +1 blight melee damage
FOR: El Lobo, marcuspers (though maybe too strong), Hiliadan (remove the +1 res)

  • RG5 economy: Cities gain +1 Production Text for every Wetlands hex in their Domain - Significantly below target.
  1. Cities gain +3 happiness for every Wetlands hex in their Domain.
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire

1/ that makes all Goblin cities Cheerful. After having written all this I don't have the strength to assess the effect but I guess it fits the bill?.

Current votes:

1. Cities gain +3 happiness for every Wetlands hex in their Domain.
FOR: gladis (or +2 and Beetle Command gives gold), El Lobo
AGAINST: marcuspers (+1 prod & +2 happiness)
 
Last edited:

El_Lobo1986

Corporal
2 Badges
Oct 4, 2018
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Regarding Goblins I mostly agree with your assesses. Not sure about eco RG4. Could be really useful but I never made it to RG4 with goblins or forgot about it.

Orcs: Eco RG2 is fine imo. With cheerful the additional gold is 8 per city what means after 6 turns the invest of gold is earned.
Military 5 is quite weak imo. Orc units are physically strong so another 20% resistance makes them even better but only 1 more resistance didn't solve the problem for orcs that they will be blown away by units with high non-physical damage channels. Too weak for RG5 imo.

Assessment of humans and draconians seem to be fine.

Dwarves: Eco RG2 is fine for me. Not that strong on smaller maps but really good on big ones.
Military 5 imo is way stronger than other ones. 2 Defense is a lot and two times 40% resistance is also good.

Frostling eco RG3 is very strong on large maps. I used it in a 3vs3 and could support me (DN) and even my allies (rogue and WL) if necessary.



Have I missed the halflings or are they still waiting to be assessed?
 

gladis

Sergeant
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Sep 16, 2018
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RG1 military: Goblin Untouchable gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint - Below target.
  • For 5. Goblin Swarm Darter also gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint

RG2 military: Irregulars get +5 Health and Goblin Swarm Darter gets +10 Health - Below target.
  • I think 3. is too 'complicated', keep it simple!
  • For 2. Infantry also gets +5 HP with following buff: Add 1 Def for Infantry and Irregulars, keep +10 HP for Darters.
  • 4 is also ok

RG3 economy: - Your Goblins no longer dislike or hate Tropical or Volcanic terrain - Slightly below target.
  • For 1. Shrines provide +75 Happiness. But change to Storehouse, because it´s fits better in Goblins strategy.

RG3 military: Goblin Big Beetle gets Disgusting Stench and +5 Health - Below target.
  • For 2. Goblin Big Beetle also gets +12 HP (in total), +1 def, +1 res, +1 physical and +1 blight melee damage
  • I like to say that this change would totally outcompete the RG4 Military Buff with Tame Trolls even more. The Troll is a nice unit, but you need to build both, the Building + the Units to benefit. Maybe the Trolls need a Synergy because also it doesn´t Benefit from any RG. Like Untouchables get an ability like Invigorate to Trolls. Lorewise by hurt them, making them aggressive. Think of the poor Trolls in LotR :p And the Untouchables Sprint ability would be interesting. https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Invigorate
  • To give your army an instant buff (like normally all Military RGs do), we could try to mod a festival like 'Age of the Trolls' which gets automatically triggred when choosing that RG (like Festival of Light/Evil). This could last for 10 turns and buff all your Goblin units and give them +2 melee attack etc. This way you would get benefits until your 1st Trolls arrive.
RG5 economy: Cities gain +1 Production Text for every Wetlands hex in their Domain - Significantly below target.
  • For 1. Cities gain +3 happiness for every Wetlands hex in their Domain.
  • Maybe change to +2 Happiness but make Beetle Command provide some Gold?
 
Last edited:

El_Lobo1986

Corporal
2 Badges
Oct 4, 2018
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RG1 military
For 5.

RG2 military
For 3.

RG3 economy
For 1.

RG3 military
For 2.

RG5 economy
For 1.
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
515
1
I re-assessed Orc RG based on the updated criteria and edited the post about Orc RG: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...cing-racial-governance.1201983/#post-25646630

Orcs
In the end, we have the following problematic RG upgrades, and associated suggestions...

For Orcs, we could also distinguish between two main RG strategies:
Double down (warrior culture): play on your strength: having military buildings increase your happiness, additional physical damage on units, increase production to build costly units
Diversify: increase resilience, make some under-used units useful (Razor Bows)...
Currently, most of Orc RG is actually "double down" and there is very little "diversify" so I tried to add some.

  • RG1 economy: War Halls cost 50 gold less to build - Below target.
  1. War Halls cost 50 gold less to build and provide +50 population
  2. Barracks, War Halls and Dark Citadels cost 50 gold less to build
  3. War Halls also give 1 additional medal to racial T1 units produced in the city
Reminder of the criteria:
Early game: equivalent to +15 gold/turn +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races


1/ would give +50 population on top of the existing bonus. If we take a conversion factor of 10 pop = 1 gold as for Goblin eco RG1, then that's an additional +5 gold/turn and the RG boost now meet the target.
2/ also meets the "gold" target now (and might exceed it) but does not really meet the criteria of focusing on early game and having limited effect on late game so it seems a bad change to me.
3/ probably fits the bill too.

Current votes:
1. War Halls cost 50 gold less to build and provide +50 population
FOR: gladis (2nd choice), Hiliadan, El Lobo

3. War Halls also give 1 additional medal to racial T1 units produced in the city
FOR: gladis, El Lobo

  • RG1 military: Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage. Below target.
  1. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +2 Physical melee damage, +1 Def, +1 Res.
  2. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage and +2 HP
  3. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +2 Physical melee damage and +2 HP
  4. All units with the "Throw Javelin" ability gain +1 melee and range damage and Polearm
Reminder of the criteria:
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) the equivalent of 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful

1/ is too strong: almost equivalent to 2 medals (no HP and no ability but resistance AND defense) on 2 units.
2/ is slightly below the target as in truth 1 Veteran medal for instance gives +1 def
3/ fits the bill
4/ is class dependent. Hunters, Martyrs, Scoundrels, Monster Hunters would also benefit, making it slightly too strong for those classes, while for Dreadnought, Necromancer and Sorcerer, the boost is more or less equivalent to 2 medals.

Current votes:
1. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +2 Physical melee damage, +1 Def, +1 Res.
FOR: El Lobo (2nd choice)

2. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage and +2 HP
AGAINST: El Lobo (too weak)

3. Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +2 Physical melee damage and +2 HP
FOR: gladis, Hiliadan, El Lobo

4. All units with the "Throw Javelin" ability gain +1 melee and range damage and Polearm
AGAINST: El Lobo (too strong for some class units)
  • RG2 economy: Arena's provide +5 Gold and +50 Happiness. Way below target
  1. Guard Houses also provide +50 Happiness
  2. Barracks, Arenas, War Halls and Guard Houses provide +25 Happiness. Arenas also provide +5 gold.
  3. Temples provide +100 Happiness and +5 gold
  4. Shooting Grounds and Temple provide +50 Happiness. Shooting Grounds also provide +5 gold
Reminder of the criteria:
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1

1/ this would make it possible to get +100 happiness, which is usually not possible through RG2 (max is +75). The cost would be only 100 gold, which is the same as a Stone Wall for Dwarf RG2. However, given the current rating of "way below target", the boost probably does not exceed the target.
2/ Same as 1/ except that the cost is much higher.
3/ and 4/ are "diversify" RG encouraging to build Razor Bows, Mounted Archers or Orc Priests (or class Supports). The potential bonus is the same as for 1/ and 2/ and costs higher so same analysis as 1/.

Current votes:
1. Guard Houses also provide +50 Happiness
FOR: gladis, Hiliadan (RG2 military is "diversify" so eco should be double down), El Lobo (2nd choice)

2. Barracks, Arenas, War Halls and Guard Houses provide +25 Happiness. Arenas also provide +5 gold.
FOR: El Lobo

3. Temples provide +100 Happiness and +5 gold
FOR: gladis (2nd choice)
AGAINST: El Lobo (too weak)

4. Shooting Grounds and Temple provide +50 Happiness. Shooting Grounds also provide +5 gold
AGAINST: El Lobo (too weak, Shooting Grounds not built)
  • RG2 military: Orc Razorbows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage. Way below target
  1. Orc Razor Bows get Taunt
  2. Orc Razor Bows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage and Taunt
  3. Orc Razor Bows get Cause Berserk (Medium Range, cast Berserk on target enemy unit, can be used once per battle)
  4. Orc Support units get +2 ranged damage on their primary channel, +5 HP and +1 resistance
  5. Orc Archers get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage.
Reminder of the criteria:
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful

1/ might be below target as it gives only 1 ability but no other medal benefit
2/ probably meets targets or even exceed it
3/ that's a very strong ability so probably fits the bill
4/ a "diversify" RG boost. Would make Orc Sorcerer and AD stronger + make Priests stronger too. Fits the bill in terms of boosts.
5/ is class dependent as Mounted Archers and Hunters would also be boosted. Despite the fact that the boost is more or less equivalent to 2 medals, it probably does not fit the bill as Archers are too rare for Orcs.

Current votes:
1. Orc Razor Bows get Taunt
AGAINST: gladis (too weak), El Lobo

2. Orc Razor Bows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage and Taunt
FOR: gladis (2 damage if too strong)
AGAINST: El Lobo

3. Orc Razor Bows get Cause Berserk (Medium Range, cast Berserk on target enemy unit, can be used once per battle)
AGAINST: gladis (too strong), El Lobo

4. Orc Support units get +2 ranged damage on their primary channel, +5 HP and +1 resistance
FOR: gladis (2nd choice), El Lobo (all the Archer proposals not good), Hiliadan

5. Orc Archers get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage.
AGAINST: gladis (too weak), El Lobo

  • RG3 economy: Siege Workshop provides +20 Production. Slightly below target.
  1. Siege Workshop provides +20 Production and +10 Gold
  2. Temples give +1 defense and +2 resistance to Supports produced in their cities
Reminder of the criteria:
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire

1/ as the current RG was assessed to give 30-52.5 gold/turn, having +10 gold/Siege Workshop and keeping an assumption of 3 Siege Workshops would mean it meets the target.
2/ is a "diversify" RG. It would boost Orc Priests, Shamans, Apprentices, Bards, Succubus and Evangelists. The boost is equivalent to about 3-4 medals worth of defense/resistance but 0 for HP and damage, so overall about 1-2 medals. Should meet the target but maybe a problem to boost Evangelists that much. Maybe we could exclude T3 Support or give them only +1 resistance.

Current votes:
1. Siege Workshop provides +20 Production and +10 Gold
FOR: gladis, El Lobo, Hiliadan

2. Temples give +1 defense and +2 resistance to Supports produced in their cities
FOR: Hiliadan (but exclude T3)
AGAINST: El Lobo (boosts many classes, impact too big)

  • RG3 military: Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker. Below target.
  1. Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage, Guard Breaker and Life Steal
  2. Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage, Guard Breaker and Energy Drain
  3. Orc Cavalry units get +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker
  4. Orc Mounted units get +1 Physical melee damage, +5 HP and Guard Breaker
Reminder of the criteria:
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals 2.5 medals 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units with the equivalent of 2 medals to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted by RG1 and RG2)

1/ and 2/ gives an additional ability to Black Knights but the RG still focuses on only 1 T2 unit instead of the racial T3 or 2-3 T1 and T2, so it's still below target.
3/ includes the racial T2 and class Cavalry units i.e. Mounted Archers and Manticores, which limits the boost to Warlord. For Warlords, it's too strong, for others it's too weak.
4/ includes also Orc heroes and Leaders and gives +5 HP on top of the current boost (note: Orc Manticores already have Guard Breaker). Probably fits the bill.

Current votes:
3. Orc Cavalry units get +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker
FOR: El Lobo

4. Orc Mounted units get +1 Physical melee damage, +5 HP and Guard Breaker
FOR: gladis, El Lobo, Hiliadan (though might be too strong)
  • RG4 economy: The Dark Citadel is 100 Gold cheaper and generates +10 Gold and +10 Mana. Below target.
  1. Orc Shocktroopers are also 25% cheaper
  2. Orc Shocktroopers are also 10% cheaper
  3. Temples are 50 gold cheaper and generate +10 gold. Grand Temple are 100 gold cheaper and generate +10 gold and +10 mana.
Reminder of the criteria:
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire

1/ "Double-down" RG boost. For non-Warlords, Shocktroopers would cost and 120 gold and 15 mana. Keeping the assumption of 3 cities with Dark Citadels, that's 3x(40+5x2) = 150 gold/turn of extra saving every turn, which is pretty significant.
2/ Here the extra gain would be 60 gold/turn which would meet the bill (once combined with the 100 gold/turn from the existing bonus).
3/ "Diversify" RG boost. If we consider that 1 out of 2.5 cities have a Temple (see Frostling RG3 eco), that's about 4 Temples (10.5 cities) but probably only 1 or 2 built after RG4. Let's assume we have 1 Grand Temple out of 5 cities: that's 2, including 1 built after RG4. That means a boost of 4x10+2x(10+10x2) = 100 gold/turn and a saving of 1.5x50+100 = 175 gold, spread over 10-20 turns + also some gains due to Produce Merchandise. Overall, it should meet the target or be slightly below it (but more Temples might be built, increasing the gains).

Current votes:
1.Orc Shocktroopers are also 25% cheaper
FOR: gladis (with assumption of 2.5 Dark Citadels might be within target, or 20% cheaper), El Lobo (though not sure 10%-25%)

2. Orc Shocktroopers are also 10% cheaper
FOR: El Lobo, Hiliadan

3. Temples are 50 gold cheaper and generate +10 gold. Grand Temple are 100 gold cheaper and generate +10 gold and +10 mana.
FOR: gladis (careful not to add too much gold income)
  • RG4 military: Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome. Below target.
  1. Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome and Steadfast Warrior (self-buff ability which can be used once per battle for 0 action point and gives Steadfast for 2 turns. Steadfast prevents a unit's health from dropping below 1 HP)
  2. Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome, Mind Control Immunity and High Morale
  3. Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome, Mind Control Immunity and Rallying Cry
Reminder of the criteria:
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).

1/ probably too strong as Steadfast Warrior is really good, especially for manual combat, but also in auto (though unsure how the AI would use it). Likely to make "likely defeat" 18vs18 battle winnable.
2/ probably fits the bill.
3/ unclear as the AI uses Rallying Cry pretty badly.

Current votes:
2. Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome, Mind Control Immunity and High Morale
FOR: gladis, El Lobo

3. Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome, Mind Control Immunity and Rallying Cry
FOR: gladis (but another ability, affecting only Orcs and with another SFX), Hiliadan
  • RG5 economy: Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold. Slightly below target.
  1. Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +30 Gold
  2. Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold and Orc T1 units are 10% cheaper
Reminder of the criteria:
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire

1/ brings an additional +40 gold/turn keeping the assumption of RG5, i.e. a total of 220 gold/turn, slightly below target (though the cost of building Masters Guild has not been taken into account
2/ the 10% cheaper means we probably meet target. It is unlikely to be abused because T1 are not that useful late game, but that means smaller cities without Masters Guilds can still usefully contribute to production.

Current votes:
1. Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +30 Gold
FOR: El Lobo

2. Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold and Orc T1 units are 10% cheaper
FOR: Hiliadan
AGAINST: gladis (hard to assess and not useful late game, make Orcs indifferent to Blighted instead)
 
Last edited:

Marcus Pers

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Hi,

My feedback on the Goblins:
RG1:
Would prefer option 5, then 6, then 4.
RG2:
For 3 - 2 is not very good, and 1 would boost MHs (42mp possible, i.e. 14hex movement=strong no)
RG3 eco:
None of the alternatives is stronger than the current one, imho. Goblins often face lava in UG meaning disliked/hated terrain.
If this is considered to weak, maybe add arctic as well, or add a bonus (gold/mana) to store house or equivalent building (public bath would fit thematically as it increase the water=wetlands in the domain)
RG3 Military:
2 is clearly superior to 1, but maybe its a bit too strong? If not, then im For, but it sounds almost too good.
RG4:
Need to be tested first, Im not sure 1 production is worse than 3 happiness per hex. A city/metropolis with 30hexes of wetlands (end game) would also probably have some other city happiness bonuses, and therefore already be cheerful and not benefit tremendously by an increase in happiness, but could make a difference with 30 extra production (+45 when already cheerful)
Perhaps add +1 production and 1-2 happiness (depending on what is needed to reach the "target")

/Marcus
 

gladis

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@Goblin RG3 eco: Weren't the proposals not additionally? The Goblins keep the Volcanic/Tropical buff, right?
@Goblin RG3 mil: Yeah, seems strong but seems to fit perfectly in the 'aimed buffs'. And you normally don't have that much Beetles?!

Orcs
RG1 economy: War Halls cost 50 gold less to build - Below target.
- For 3., 1. could also be ok


RG1 military: Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage. Below target.
- For 3.

RG2 economy: Arena's provide +5 Gold and +50 Happiness. Way below target
- For 1., 3. is also ok. I don't think the production of Shooting Grounds will push a player significantly towards building Archers. And not sure whether it would be a great idea to do so :p And by choosing this RG you loose the Razer Bow buff.

RG2 military: Orc Razorbows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage. Way below target
- For 2. Maybe only 2 Damage if it's too strong.
I think 3. is too strong. 4. is ok. 1. and 5. are too weak.


RG3 economy: Siege Workshop provides +20 Production. Slightly below target.
- For 1. Referring to 2.: Don´t forget Bards and Succubus. Maybe exclude T3 Supports or give them just +1 Res.

RG3 military: Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker. Below target.
- For 4. Manticores already have it. So it would applay to Heroes, Black Knights and MA.

RG4 economy: The Dark Citadel is 100 Gold cheaper and generates +10 Gold and +10 Mana. Below target.
- @ 1.: Haven't you made a mistake? 25% of 120 are 30 and 25% of 15 are 3.75.
Not sure whether you have 3 Citadels. Maybe calculate with 2.5? In Endgame you can calculate with 3.5.
So maybe 1. would fit the target, Maybe only 20%.
3. could be ok. Maybe we shouldn't add too much Gold income though?

RG4 military: Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome. Below target.
- For 2. I often think why they don't habe MCI from the start.
3. could be also fine. But dshould be another sound campared to Chthonic Guardian and only affect Orcs. So another ability.


RG5 economy: Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold. Slightly below target.
- I wouldn't vote for 2. as it's difficult to asses and probably won't be useful in late game.
Maybe make Orcs indifferent to Blighted Terrain (instead of Disiked)?

Also hard to assess but can be very useful (economy+military). Similar to Goblin's RG3 eco.



 
Last edited:

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Thanks gladis! Based on the feedback so far, it looks like we're heading in the right direction. This RG balancing takes a lot of time though. :S

@Goblin RG3 eco: Weren't the proposals not additionally? The Goblins keep the Volcanic/Tropical buff, right?
If it's not written "also", it means it's replacement of and not an addition to the current buff. I made a mistake for the Shrine +75 happiness initially and corrected it by adding "also", but for the "Cave Foraging" boost, it's currently a replacement of the existing RG upgrade.

RG4 economy: The Dark Citadel is 100 Gold cheaper and generates +10 Gold and +10 Mana. Below target.
- @ 1.: Haven't you made a mistake? 25% of 120 are 30 and 25% of 15 are 3.75.
Shocktroopers cost 160 gold and 20 mana so 120/15 is already the reduced cost.
You're maybe right that we should consider 2.5 T3 racial building in Very late game. I should make a table with the number of buildings by phase.
 

Rodmar18

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Hi! I can't help giving my feeling as a player, for what's worth, but please don't include me in the vote as I don't play MP.

Orcs

RG1 Eco: 2
- Orcs should train by real fighting, hence no 3;
- -50 gold on T2 building is a thing, and -50 gold on T1 building is another thing (while it's less impactful on a T3 building), so I'd say that this has more effect on early game than on mid game. On early game, this allows you to produce some units earlier even with a poor economy, while on mid game, this only allows you to haste your development (because you have built buildings a couple turns earlier, as you should not be short of 50 gold at this stage).

RG2 Eco: 2
- 4 doesn't fit the faction imo; archers are not praised as such, they are encouraged to go melee whenever they can. Moreover, RG2 Mil is already for archers, and you can't have both.
- Priests don't need to be encouraged, they are inherently useful.

RG2 Mil: 2
- Not 1: Razor Bows need to be physically able, they are not jokers. Indeed, Razor Bows could be on par with Impalers.
- 4 and 5 would be against the Razor Bow's flavor, that is an archer able to go melee or at least, able to retaliate against melee units.
- Taunt: perhaps if you consider that these lesser orcs have developped a strong tongue to make for feeble muscles.
- Certainly not Cause Berserk: why would they entice enemies into fighting against each other?
- Sorry to divert but why not an ability that would make them better defenders (i.e. better retaliaters)? As compared to Swords, they are unarmored, but they could have a buff in defense when attacked.

RG3 Eco: 2
- Okay to diversify; if deemed to strong, reduce resistance bonus to +1 and add +5 gold or +50? happiness (see your proposed RG2 Eco/3).

RG3 Mil:
- Life Steal and Energy Drain don't fit lore much, imho (more for Dark Elves, or the Undead).
- If other units (besides heroes) get Guard Breaker, that would defeat the purpose to make Black Knights (more) useful.
- Why not quit focusing on cavalry or mounted units, and have a small buff for all T1 (and T2, ...) units, like:
"Orc Units get +1 Physical Melee Damage; Orc Black Knights also get Guard Breaker" ?
Think like magical tatoos or black magic from the Dark (Arts) Citadel. Alternatively, this RG could be dependent on the presence in town of a religious building (Temple?, Grand Temple?)

RG4 Eco: 2, as you say
- having buildings generating gold should better make for having troops more able for pillaging and looting, imho, not true economic boosts. I mean that making Orcs able to buy anything but more troops could be seen as off-lore. So, cheaper troops could be better than more gold income.
(Do you really want more colonists, more mercenaries, more roads, more items, more heroes ?)

RG4 Mil: 1
- because of the scene in LotR 2! If too strong, give Steadfast Warrior only to (silver and) elite troopers?



Goblins

RG1 Mil: 2 or 4
- I think that boosting other irregulars and Swarm Darters should be avoided, as they are already boosted with RG2 Mil; at least, take into consideration what would be the role of Untouchables when other units benefit from both RGs.
- I don't see how costing less to produce would be "combining a lot of abilities on a T1".
- having Untouchable the only Goblin foot soldiers to not hide in cave could only be justified by some special behaviour (are they inherently bully and bragging?). If Devs can't help us with that choice of them, I'd assume that this needs a correction, and then, granting them an ability that is almost a racial trait is not like "combining a lot of abilities on a T1" either, even if on the paper you might be technically true.

RG2 Mil: 3
or:
"Goblin T1 units get +5 HP and +1 def" + a boost for Swarm Darters
- this would negate the racial negative trait only for T1 units, and gives +1 def like in 2 (for Gladis) and 3... only Pikeman and class irregulars would be boosted on top of your proposals.

RG3 Eco: 1
- as you say, this would be useful if terrain can't be terraformed, but keep reflect on which building would grant the bonus.
- thinking about of this, why not linking the whole RG to the presence of a building (Great Temple?):
"Your Goblins no longer dislike or hate Tropical or Volcanic terrain in domain of cities equipped with a..."
If you think this would make the RG less worth, then boost/add another of its aspects (on top of the Happiness bonus).

RG3 Mil: I don't know
- it depends on how the AI is impacted but 1 would have been fun (to not always have boosted stats). Goblins are already Blight resistant; would it be possible to have Goblins immune to that Blight damage special attack? Else grant all Goblins an additional +20% Blight protection (probably too strong?).

RG5 Eco: I don't know but would be a nice addition to RG3 Eco.
 
Last edited:

El_Lobo1986

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Hey there, it took some time but here are my thoughts.

RG1
economy: War Halls cost 50 gold less to build - Below target.
For 1, 3 seems also possible.

military: Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage. Below target.
For 3 or 1, 4 is too strong regarding some class units and 2 is too weak.


RG2
economy: Arena's provide +5 Gold and +50 Happiness. Way below target
For 2 or 1, 3 is too weak imo and 4 too because orc archers are weak and therefore shooting grounds are built only in very rare cases.

military: Orc Razorbows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage. Way below target
Honestly I don't like all the proposals giving archers abilities they normally don't need or aren't suitable for them. The only one I vote for is therefore number 4.
If we want to make razorbows more useful they need other stats than melee boosts. Taunt and berserk is also not suitable and/or too strong.


RG3
economy: Siege Workshop provides +20 Production. Slightly below target.
For 1. 2nd proposal boosts a lot of class units and the impact is too big.

military: Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker. Below target.
Does the guard breaker ability only work when using a melee attack or does it also work for ranged attacks? If ranged attacks can break the guard mode than number 3 is no choice regarding mounted archers.
I would vote for number 4.


RG4
economy: The Dark Citadel is 100 Gold cheaper and generates +10 Gold and +10 Mana. Below target.
Definitely 1 or 2 but isn't this more a military boost than an economical? Also I am not sure what amount is an adequat cost reduction. 10% seems to be too low and 25% sounds a lot.


military: Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome. Below target.
For number 2. Fits perfect to orcs and steadfast is way too strong regarding maual combat.


RG5
economy: Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold. Slightly below target.
For 1, T1 units are useless at this stage of the game even with one more medal.