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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
This is the continuation of this thread on the old forum: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balancing-racial-governance/

A poll run a long time ago identified RG as the #3 priority for balance:
149440595220170408_poll_directions-balance-mod.png


I'm going to copy some key points from the old thread (with some minor edits):

What should guide balance for RG?
The way I would approach the issue (maybe others will have different/better ideas) is to check that all these criteria are met:
1/ choose a level of strength we want to achieve for each RG level (RG1 to RG5) and then make sure each race’s RG upgrades achieve this level.
2/ check the synergies between different RG levels (RG1 with RG2 and RG3 for instance) and with specs to make sure nothing OP or UP is created.
3/ check the synergies of the RG upgrades with all classes and make sure strong combinations (e.g. Draconian Sorcerer who has a very strong Apprentice) do not get booster further and try to get better synergies with weak combinations.

Economic vs military
This is not entirely necessary for balance but I think we also really need to ensure economic and military RG are of equal interest and provides two viable options in most games, even if, in a few limited cases, the interest of one of the two can be tied to some specific game conditions. So for instance it means that we should avoid RG that give bonus you will never benefit from in 90% of games (e.g. bonus to Harbours).

Opening up strategic options
In my opinion, RG should be a tool to allow real strategic choices. For the Shadow Realm community expansion, two different (and broad) strategies were considered and were used to guide the design of RG upgrades: one is to “embrace magic and the Shadow Realm” and the other is to “tame magic and develop outside the Shadow Realm”.
I think it would be good to have similar couple of strategies for each race, and try to provide options to pursue one or the other for each RG level. For instance Goblins could be “swarm and develop on wetland and UG” and the other “focus on a few elite units and get outside our usual environment”.

So what “power targets”? – And application of these criteria to the Goblin RG
Note
: I’m talking about Small to Large maps with underground, normal economic settings except Weak starting army, Village start.

What power surge do we want delivered at each RG level? One factor to take into account first is when is it achievable to get the RG upgrade? How many cities, how many units and what types of units are we supposed to have at that stage? Here are some preliminary estimates (less and less precise as we get longer in the game):
RG1 (20 XP): turn 6-7; 1-3 cities; about 10 units; T1 units; average income per city: 30-35.
RG2 (150 XP): turn 20-30; 3-5 cities; 20-30 units; T2 units.
RG3 (500 XP): turn 40-60; 5-10 cities; 30-80 units; T3 and a few T4 units; average income per city: 100.
RG4 (1000 XP): turn 50-75; 7-14 cities; 40-120 units; T4; average income per city: 100.
RG5 (1500 XP): turn 60-100; 8-20 cities; 50-200 units; mostly T3 and T4; average income per city: 100.

I will use the following definitions:
Early game: turn 0-20
Mid game: turn 21-40
Late game: turn 41-60
Very late game: turn 61-80
End game: post turn 81

Conversion factors need to be used to compare gold, mana, RP, etc. Here are some guiding values and principles:
– gold is used as the common metrics as much as possible
– 1 mana = 2 gold; in later stages, the exchange rate can be lower as mana loses its value (excess mana)
– 1 RP = 3 gold
– 10 population = 1 gold
– happiness and production needs to be considered in terms of thresholds. For instance: a town base prod is 30. Let’s say it has only a Buider’s Hall (typical situation) and a Magma Forge, it has a base 30+20+10=60 production. Let’s say it’s Very Happy: 60*1.33=80. If it’s Draconian and it gets the +10 prod/Magma Forge RG, that would bring its base production to 30+20+10+10=70, and actual production to 70*1.33= 93, which would allow it to one-turn Elders and 2-turns War Hall, among other things, which can be assessed in gold-value by considering Producing Merchandises is used during the turns gained.
 
Last edited:

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
So as a consequence of the figures above, the power surge desired for each RG was assessed. I report it below, with discussions which occurred regarding the targets for each RG level displayed in italics:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +15 gold/turn +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races

MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) the equivalent of 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Alternative: minor buffs to a few units grouped by requisite (archer, infantry etc) or ability or 1 noticeable buff for 1 unit (T1s, mostly). For instance Elven RG gives a boost to most units with Longbow.


RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1

MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Alternative (actually very similar to the original proposal): noticeable buffs for 1 T2 unit (cavalry, maybe supports) or noticeable buffs for a bunch of units (T1s, some weak T2s).

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire

MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals 2.5 medals 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units with the equivalent of 2 medals to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted by RG1 and RG2)

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire

MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
Alternative: minor/noticeable buffs for all units of race or noticeable-big buffs only for some lines (same requisite).

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire

MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
 
Last edited:

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
Goblin RG was assessed based on the criteria above. A poll was also run among competitive PBEM players: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=28 I compare the results of the poll and of the assessment below:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +15 gold/turn +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
Outposts and Villages get +5 pop per Wetland hex. If we take a conversion factor of 10 pop = 1 gold (Beacon of Faith gives +100 pop and Paid Absolution gives +10 gold, for the same upkeep), and consider that each city has 5 Wetland hex in average, that you have 1 to 3 (see above), and that you have +30% from Very Happy (hypothesis), plus Goblins have +20% pop growth, then it’s 5*2*5*1.3*1.2/10 = 7.8 gold/turn so below the objective of +15 but can increase when you get more Outposts basically achieving the objective. Also, the bonus DOES fade in later stages. Meets target.

MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) the equivalent of 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Goblin Untouchable gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint”. That does the job only in half: Projectile Resistance and Sprint does not make them T2 are equivalent to 4 medals in terms of additional ability but do not bring any HP, defense or resistance, so it's basically equivalent to 1 medal overall and I personally NEVER takes this upgrade because Untouchable stays useless with it. I’m not going to propose solutions at this stage, let’s just stay in “assessment mode”. Below target.

RG1 assessment: economy > military
RG1 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> agreement

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Great Farms generate +20 gold”. You can expect to get in average 2 Great Farms in your 2-5 cities, and probably more so you get at least +40 gold/turn, and actually more with the happiness bonus. However, there is some great variability in Great Farm distribution so sometimes you won’t get as much, and sometimes you’ll get more. However, the bonus probably scales up too much in late game and after. So Goblin RG2 eco is probably too good. Good or too good.

MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Irregulars get +5 Health and Goblin Swarm Darter gets +10 Health”. That mixes the two proposal and gives the health equivalent of 2.5 medals to Irregulars (Untouchable + class Irregular) and the health equivalent of 5 medals to Darters. However, no boost outside HP and that makes this RG a bit lacking (I always take the eco one). Basically the RG gives a boost of 2.5/10+(5/2)/10=5/10 (considering that HP = 1; def = 1; damage = 1; ability = 5, and that with 2 medals, you get 2xHP+1xdef+2xdamage+1xability). Below target.

RG1 assessment: economy >> military
RG1 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> disagreement ==> needs to refine the RG2 criteria, either the economic one is not high enough or the military one is too high (likely)

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Your Goblins no longer dislike or hate Tropical or Volcanic terrain”. With 5-10 cities and maybe one third getting 20% less income because of Tropical or Volcanic, if we assume a total income per city equivalent to 100 gold, it means about 7.5*0.30*0.2*100=45 gold/turn. So it falls short of the +100 gold/turn +80 gold/turn but then it depends how much cities are affected by the bad climate. It can scale up pretty well in later stages, and it also allow good planning to take advantage of it. Also, it benefits units as well as cities, though it is difficult to quantify in economic terms. So probably OK, especially since there is a lot of lava UG. Slightly below target.

MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units with the equivalent of 2 medals to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
“Goblin Big Beetle gets Disgusting Stench and +5 Health”. It does give 1 new ability (= the non-health, non defense/resistance/damage boost of 2 medals) and the health equivalent of 1 medal to the T3. But the defense/resistance/damage boost equivalent for 3 medals are lacking. I usually take the economic RG. Applying the criteria would yield Disgusting Stench, +18 HP, +1 def, +1 res, +3 melee damage. Might be a little too strong? Maybe should be 2.5 medals? Below target.

RG3 assessment: economy > military
RG3 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> agreement

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn+200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Class specific buildings in Goblin cities are 20 Gold cheaper and generate +10 Production. Additionally, all your Goblin cities get +10 .”. This is hard to assess. If we take 1 gold = 1 prod, and we consider you build build only 3 T3 and maybe 2 T2 in other city (and let’s suppose 3 buildings after RG), then the income is a meagre (3+2)*10*1.5=75 gold/turn ((3+2)+10.5)*10*1.5=232.5 gold/turn + 3*20=60 gold that we can scatter over 20 turns, so we actually exceed the criteria of +160 gold/turn so we’re far from the 200 gold/turn. In some cases, the production bonus might be useful, but I think it’s quite rare. The calculation is probably too simplistic but the combination of the base +10 and the +10 per class building is likely to Meet target. This analysis could be refined to take into account actual gold gains thanks to Produce Merchandise.

MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
“Beetle Command now enables construction of Tame Trolls”. Meets the criteria. - Meets target.

RG4 assessment: economy << military economy = military
RG4 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> agreement disagreement, needs to review the criteria for RG4, maybe just offering a new T3 with new strategies is not enough (or the Troll does not meet that criteria) or the economic criteria is too high.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Cities gain +1 Production Text for every Wetlands hex in their Domain”. this basically allows to 1-turn most things but it’s actually quite lame because it will be useless in most cities. Far from +300 gold/turn +240 gold/turn I think. As pointed out by gladis, it can help 1 turn T4 but the saving is likely to be below +120 gold/turn. Significantly below target.

MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
Infantry, Pikeman and Irregular units gain +5 HP, +2 Blight Melee Damage and Weakened Inflict Weakened. Mostly meets the criteria.Meets target.

RG5 assessment: economy << military
RG5 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement
 
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gladis

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Sep 16, 2018
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Goblin RG4 Economic has an additional benefit of 10 Production per city and Goblin RG5 Military Hands 5 HP for the units as well https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Racial_Governance

City Happiness Bonus factors are:
Happy: 0,15
Very Happy: 0,3
Cheerful 0,5

The values of the additional income due to %-based Bonuses or Happiness are just „rounded“, like the additional income due to Production like produce Merchandise - and not rounded up.

You only investigate living races, here is some info about Necro-RG we should consider in later stages:
aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balancing-racial-governance/#post-292456
 
Last edited:

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
I'm assessing Orc RG based on the criteria above. A poll is also being run among competitive PBEM players: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=38

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +15 gold/turn +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"War Halls cost 50 gold less to build". With an average of 2 cities (1 to 3 cities, see above), and considering you won't build 2 War Halls early game, that's a single gain of 50 gold, which can be considered over a period of 10 to 20 turns (duration of one "game stage" like "early game"), so that's 2.5 to 5 gold/turn so below the objective of +8. The bonus can be used again in later stages as you get more resources to build more War Halls. However, it won't really scale up in late game (you won't build hundreds of War Halls anyway!). Beyond the gold cost reduction, there is a time saving because you can build the War Hall in 2 to 3 turns instead of 3 to 4 turns. That means potentially one turn of Merchandise, which can provide a small additional gold boost (of about 15 gold if we consider a gold income of about 30-35 for a normal village early game), but that doesn't really change the equation. Below target.

MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) the equivalent of 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
"Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage" Boosts 2 units but gives them only half a medal (no HP boost) so does only half of the job (or even one third if you consider that 1 medal out of 2 gives also defense or resistance). Below target.

RG1 assessment: economy = military = insufficient
RG1 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> disagreement.

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Arena's provide +5 Gold and +50 Happiness”. Arena requires 50 gold to be built, however in some cases, the player will have Arena even without the RG and will just benefit from the RG "for free". If we consider two cities (half of the total, though it would probably rather be one third in later stages of the game) have Arena and half of them would be constructed without the RG, that's an income of 4/2x5x1.15 (happiness = Content) = 11.5 per turn vs an expense of 50 spread over 20 turns, i.e. 11.5-50/20=9 gold/turn net income. In very late game, with 14 cities and 5 with Arena, the income won't exceed 25 gold/turn. The +50 happiness rarely matters because happiness threshold are usually affected only when bonuses reach 100 (or close to). If a threshold was reached however, the equation would change and the income could raise significantly, making the RG worth it. Way below target.

MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Orc Razorbows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage ”. Only one unit boosted (instead of a type or 2 units) by about 2 medals. Beside, the boost is quite weird because Razorbows are ranged units so making them better at melee (but still lacklustre compared to real melee units) doesn't make much sense. Way below target.

RG2 assessment: economy = military = way below target
RG2 assessment from the poll: Always economy (much stronger) ==> disagreement

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Siege Workshop provides +20 Production”. If we consider that a typical City late game has 35 base production + 10 from a Magma Forge + 20 from a Builder's Hall + 10 from a Siege Workshop, and is Very Happy, that's 75*1.3 = 97.5 = 98. It means Shocktroopers can be 2-turned. With Cheerful happiness or another production bonus (e.g. 2nd Magma Forge), that's over 100 production and many buildings can be 1-turned. The +20 production brought by RG3 means production reaches 124, which is not very useful. Shocktroopers are still 2-turned.
Even if we consider a saving of 1 turn every 2 turns for 3 (out of 7.5 cities) which would have a Siege Workshop with a 100 gold income, that would be 3/2x100x50%=75 gold/turn with very optimistic assumptions. If we take into account the cost of the 3 Siege Workshops of 150 gold spread over 10-20 turns, that's -22.5-45 gold/turn i.e. 30-52.5 gold/turn. Slightly below target.




MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals 2.5 medals 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units with the equivalent of 2 medals to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted by RG1 and RG2))
“Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker". It does give 1 new ability (= the non-health, non defense/resistance/damage boost of 2 medals) and the damage equivalent of 1 medal to a T2. But the defense/resistance/damage boost equivalent for 2 medals are lacking and it boosts only 1 T2 (instead of 2-3 or a T3). Below target.

RG3 assessment: economy > military
RG3 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> agreement

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn +200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
"The Dark Citadel is 100 Gold cheaper and generates +10 Gold and +10 Mana"”. This is much stronger than Goblin RG4 eco. If we suppose 3 cities in the empire (of 7-14 cities) have a Dark Citadel and 2 were built after the RG, that's a saving of 200 gold spread of 20 turns so 10 gold/turn, + (10+10x2)x3 = 90 gold/turn so about 100 gold/turn. However, there is a cost to build the Dark Citadel. It can scale up a bit in End game. Below target.

MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
“Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome”. It does not open up new strategies for the racial T3 (it's still get to contact and hit things) but it boosts it signicicantly. It's more RG3 than RG4 (makes the T3 significantly stronger and superior to other T3). - Below target.

RG4 assessment: economy = military = below target
RG4 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases => disagreement

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold ”. A better version of RG3. If we consider a quarter of the about 14 cities of the empire have a Masters Guilds, that's about 4 cities and 80 gold/turn. On top of that, 1 turn is probably gained on any production, so probably about 50 gold or more per city concerned every 2 turns (at best), so about 100 additional gold. RG5 obviously synergizes well with RG3. Slightly below target.

MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
Orc Infantry, Pikeman and Irregular units gain +1 Resistance and 20% Physical Protection.” Probably meets the criteria. Meets target.

RG5 assessment: economy < military
RG5 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength), with more people voting for Usually military ==> agreement


======== ARCHIVE (irrelevant following the post's edit in April 2020 ===========
Based on these two assessments, I suggest to review a bit the criteria:
- RG1 military - necessary to get only 1 medal if 2 units are boosted
- RG1 eco - reduce the target to 8 gold/turn instead of 15 gold/turn
- RG3 military - necessary to get 2.5 medals (and not 3) if a T3 is boosted

It appears most RG falls short of the targets for economy (and military). So should we revise the targets down or should we boost RG across the board?
 
Last edited:

Rodmar18

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Sep 19, 2018
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Hello, why making races more equal? Is it because of MP? Isn't it RP to play with races that have drawbacks like a "poor" economy or military or RG?
Here are some ideas, anyways. Feel free to dismiss them at will.

RG1:
MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Goblin Untouchable gets Projectile Resistance and Sprint”. That does the job only in half: Projectile Resistance and Sprint does not make them T2 and I personally NEVER takes this upgrade because Untouchable stays useless with it. I’m not going to propose solutions at this stage, let’s just stay in “assessment mode”. Below target.
>>>> There's a lot that Untouchables could have:
- Volunteer, or cost less to produce (that wouldn't make them better at fight, only more numerous);
- Lucky (PBEM requires the DLC anyways and one may wonder how they can survive that long, being nicknames "untouchable" even by Goblins);
- Wetland Concealment sooner (at Bronze or Silver instead of Gold), even Cave Concealment at Gold (remember that all the other standard T1s have it inherently).
RG2:
MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Irregulars get +5 Health and Goblin Swarm Darter gets +10 Health”. That mixes the two proposal and gives the health equivalent of 2 medals to Irregulars (Untouchable + class Irregular) and the health equivalent of 4 medals to Darters. However, no boost outside HP and that makes this RG a bit lacking (I always take the eco one). Below target.
>>>> Irregulars could get +2 MP (Untouchables: 28 -> 30 MP). Untouchables would move 1 hex more on tactical map (5 -> 6), 1 hex more on any subterranean terrain (9 -> 10), and 1 hex more on dense vegetation surface terrain (5 -> 6). I didn't bothered with roads.
RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Your Goblins no longer dislike or hate Tropical or Volcanic terrain”. With 5-10 cities and maybe one third getting 20% less income because of Tropical or Volcanic, if we assume a total income per city equivalent to 100 gold, it means about 7.5*0.33*0.2*100=49.5 gold/turn. So it falls short of the +100 gold/turn but then it depends how much cities are affected by the bad climate. It can scale up pretty well in later stages, and it also allow good planning to take advantage of it. Also, it benefits units as well as cities, though it is difficult to quantify in economic terms. So probably OK, especially since there is a lot of lava UG. Slightly below target.
>>>> In the pros, you could consider the Domain of the Sun spell (and even Tropical Empire) that can boost Goblins on the surface. Else, you could add a Cave Foraging.
MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
“Goblin Big Beetle gets Disgusting Stench and +5 Health”. It does give 1 new ability (= the non-health, non defense/resistance/damage boost of 2 medals) and the health equivalent of 1 medal to the T3. But the defense/resistance/damage boost equivalent for 3 medals are lacking. I usually take the economic RG. Applying the criteria would yield Disgusting Stench, +18 HP, +1 def, +1 res, +3 melee damage. Might be a little too strong? Maybe should be 2.5 medals? Below target.
>>>> Big Beetle could have Fast Healing because of the mount's physiology, and/or an explosive poisoned death (when the beetle's belly spills ichor around)
RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Class specific buildings in Goblin cities are 20 Gold cheaper and generate +10 Production”. This is hard to assess. If we take 1 gold = 1 prod, and we consider you build build only 3 T3 and maybe 2 T2 in other city (and let’s suppose 3 buildings after RG), then the income is a meagre (3+2)*10*1.5=75 gold/turn + 3*20=60 gold that we can scatter over 20 turns, so we’re far from the 200 gold/turn. In some cases, the production bonus might be useful, but I think it’s quite rare. Significantly below target. This analysis needs to be refined to take into account actual gold gains thanks to Produce Merchandise
>>>> As with any discount on building RG, they more than often come too late for me. I'd have already built 2/3 of the buildings. I wouldn't take this discount into consideration too much. As for the production bonus, why not extending it to the standard military buildings (Barracks, Hall of War, ...), especially if you are to change the RG5. That would give a +40 to +60 Production bonus, depending on how many standard buildings you include.
RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Cities gain +1 Production Text for every Wetlands hex in their Domain”. this basically allows to 1-turn most things but it’s actually quite lame because it will be useless in most cities. Far from +300 gold/turn I think. Significantly below target.
>>>> Perhaps exchange Production for Happiness (not sure about the conversion ratio). It would make sense that a Goblin town surrounded by marshes would have a higher morale, because the inhabitants would know they can flee at will and never suffer hunger. To be monitored: the extra income from happiness events.
 

Rodmar18

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Sep 19, 2018
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Now on Orcs.
RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +15 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"War Halls cost 50 gold less to build". With an average of 2 cities (1 to 3 cities, see above), and considering you won't build 2 War Halls early game, that's a single gain of 50 gold, which can be considered over a period of 10 to 20 turns (duration of one "game stage" like "early game"), so that's 2.5 to 5 gold/turn so below the objective of +15. The bonus can be used again in later stages as you get more resources to build more War Halls. However, it won't really scale up in late game (you won't build hundreds of War Halls anyway!). Beyond the gold cost reduction, there is a time saving because you can build the War Hall in 2 to 3 turns instead of 3 to 4 turns. That means potentially one turn of Merchandise, which can provide a small additional gold boost (of about 15 gold if we consider a gold income of about 30-35 for a normal village early game), but that doesn't really change the equation. Below target.
>>>> What if the bonus would apply to all three military buildings? Obviously, it would be too late for your first Barracks, but later?
MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 2 medals – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw
"Orc Greatsword and Orc Impaler get +1 Physical melee damage" Boosts 2 units but gives them only half a medal (no HP boost) so does only one fourth of the job. Below target.
>>>> Then follow your rule and go raw: +2 Physical melee damage, +1 Def, +1 Res.
RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Arena's provide +5 Gold and +50 Happiness”. Arena requires 50 gold to be built, however in some cases, the player will have Arena even without the RG and will just benefit from the RG "for free". If we consider two cities (half of the total, though it would probably rather be one third in later stages of the game) have Arena and half of them would be constructed without the RG, that's an income of 4/2x5x1.15 (happiness = Content) = 11.5 per turn vs an expense of 50 spread over 20 turns, i.e. 11.5-50/20=9 gold/turn net income. In very late game, with 14 cities and 5 with Arena, the income won't exceed 25 gold/turn. The +50 happiness rarely matters because happiness threshold are usually affected only when bonuses reach 100 (or close to). If a threshold was reached however, the equation would change and the income could raise significantly, making the RG worth it. Way below target.
>>>> Perhaps insert a synergy with another Economic RG that would grant another +50 Happiness, or add another building that grants +50 Happiness: Gard House. Even, if you consider that only cities devoted to military production may earn a true Happiness advantage, spread a greater bonus among several buildings, like +25 Happiness for each Barracks, Arena, War Hall and Guard House. This would reflect the warrior culture of Orcs.
MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Orc Razorbows get +5 Health and +3 Physical melee damage ”. Only one unit boosted (instead of a type or 2 units) by about 2 medals. Beside, the boost is quite weird because Razorbows are ranged units so making them better at melee (but still lacklustre compared to real melee units) doesn't make much sense. Way below target.
>>>> I agree with your conclusion and not with your position about Razorbows. What is a "razor-bow" by the way? A bow with protruding blades on its edges or tips, that can be used as a (short) sword. Add that these Orcs could very well be trained to equip a little target on their left elbow, and make them true irregulars (still classified as Archers). So please, beef them up. Relative to standard Greatswords, they have -2 Damage, -2 Def (Unarmored), -1 Res. Damage is fine (that makes for a 14 D once in a battle). Perhaps add +1 Res (to be on par with Greatswords), move First Strike to Bronze (to stress on their hybrid role), and add Armor Piercing at Gold (like Spearman and Impaler), or only Piercing Shot? The idea is to have 3 T1 units with basically the same stats (except for Armored and HP), who differ with their abilities and thus their tactical use. We can say that they are the same basic Orcs.
RG3:
MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 3 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
“Orc Black Knight gets +1 Physical melee damage and Guard Breaker". It does give 1 new ability (= the non-health, non defense/resistance/damage boost of 2 medals) and the damage equivalent of 1 medal to a T2. But the defense/resistance/damage boost equivalent for 3 medals are lacking and it boosts only 1 T2 (instead of 2-3 or a T3). Way below target.
>>>> Orc Black Knight could have Life-Stealing or Gift of Nekron on self (if their mount eat flesh). Or else, set bonuses for Cavalry or Mounted units, so that an Orcish Warlord would be boosted even more.

RG4:
MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
“Orc Shocktroopers gain Fearsome”. It does not open up new strategies for the racial T3 (it's still get to contact and hit things) but it boosts it signicicantly. It's more RG3 than RG4 (makes the T3 significantly stronger and superior to other T3). - Below target.
>>>> One vision that comes to mind about Shocktroopers are obviously the LotR Uruk Hai. If possible, I'd give them a Warrior-styled ability like Steadfast (either a one-use ability, or a passive ability that works only once per battle (to be able to suicide run to a curtain). They could have MCI as well, and/or Good Morale. Remember that this is Orcs and Orcs are natural "Warrior-class" units. Just monitor if Berserkers would still be valuable relative to them. Alternatively, just switch with an upgraded RG3.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Masters Guilds produce +30 Production and +20 Gold ”. A better version of RG3. If we consider a quarter of the about 14 cities of the empire have a Masters Guilds, that's about 4 cities and 80 gold/turn. On top of that, 1 turn is probably gained on any production, so probably about 50 gold or more per city concerned every 2 turns (at best), so about 100 additional gold. RG5 obviously synergizes well with RG3. Slightly below target.
>>>> Let's go on with the synergy then, so that a player would have to chose both RG3 and RG5 to economically shine in the late game. Why not binding the bonuses together? For instance, RG3 could bring small bonuses to both buildings (slightly below target), and RG5 would bring medium bonus to both buildings (slightly below target), but chose both RG and you obtain a good overall bonus (because of the synergy). I mean that RG3 Military would have to be kind of sacrificed in order to fully benefit from RG5 Economy. For example, Shocktrooper would be one-turned only if you chose both RG.


It appears most RG falls short of the targets for economy (and military). So should we revise the targets down or should we boost RG across the board?
I let you with your math but I think that RG should be a good way to add diversity in strategy and tactics. So why not boost them so much and so well that the gameplay feels each time even more different than currently.[/QUOTE]
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
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We're not looking for ideas on how to change RG at this stage. What we're looking for is good targets for each RG level, cf. second post, and then an assessment of each race's RG.


why making races more equal? Is it because of MP? Isn't it RP to play with races that have drawbacks like a "poor" economy or military or RG?
Making them more equal does not mean they don't have drawbacks or that they are the same. The idea is to have asymetrical balance with some races better at production, other at Cavalry, etc. But yet all get an equal strength boost through RG. Otherwise, some races or some race/class combination are just bad and never used.
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
I have completed the assessments only for Goblins and Orcs, so still a lot of work to do... It's a shame nobody is contributing to the choice of assessment criteria as listed in the second post and with the adjustments I suggested:
- RG1 military - necessary to get only 1 medal if 2 units are boosted
- RG1 eco - reduce the target to 8 gold/turn instead of 15 gold/turn
- RG3 military - necessary to get 2.5 medals (and not 3) if a T3 is boosted

Please note that 3 polls are open to collect opinions on the current relative benefits of military vs economy RG boosts for:
- Humans
- Draconians
- Dwarves

Please vote to help double check the assessment I'm conducting on this thread with the criteria listed above.
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
Please note that a new RG poll is open:
- Frostlings


And now, let's assess:
Humans
RG was assessed based on the criteria above. A poll was also run among competitive PBEM players: www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=39 I compare the results of the poll and of the assessment below:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"Settlers are 15% cheaper" (that's in the balance mod, otherwise it's 25% cheaper).
That translates into a 37 gold cost reduction per Settler (213 gold instead of 250 gold). It can also save one turn of production (and mean you get a city 1 turn earlier). Early game, you're probably going to produce 1 to 3 Settlers. If we take an average of 2 Settlers produced after RG1, that means a cost reduction of 74 gold, averaged over 13 turns, that's about 5.7 gold/turn. The bonus is still available later in the game but does not really scale up: of course you'll benefit more if you build more Settlers but having more cities won't automatically translate into a higher benefit if you don't build Settlers. Meets target.


MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Human Civic Guard gets Throw Net”. That might be considered to exceed the target as no racial T2 has Throw Net. However, the Rogue's Human Scoundrels do have Throw Net. So it makes Civic Guard akin to a class T1 unit. The Civic Guards are not otherwise boosted. That's still quite strong as Civic Guards are starting units and Throw Net on multiple units is an excellent map control ability and can allow XP farming, mind controlling, etc. Good or too good.

RG1 assessment: military > economy
RG1 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength), however 2 players reported always choosing military (and I personally voted "Usually economy" but realized very recently Military is pretty good in duels) ==> may be in agreement with the assessment. The key question is: should Civic Guards keep their Throw Net or should it be replaced?

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Harbors generate +100 Population and +15 Gold ”. This RG upgrade is very problematic because it is extremely rare to be able to build cities with Harbors in most games. If we take a conversion factor of 10 pop = 1 gold (cf. Goblin evaluation), and we assume you somehow manage to get a coastal city in a game, that's a gain of 10+15= 25 gold/turn. However, you need to build the Harbor, which costs 100 gold so wastes at least 4 turns of income.
Overall, this bonus is too situational and does not really make sense. Significantly below target.


MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
“Human Cavalry gains Quick Learner”. That does not boost a unit type nor 2 units. Only 1 unit is boosted and is not really the equivalent of 2 medals. However, Human Cavalry (the unit) is special as it can evolve into Human Knights. Getting +50% XP makes that evolution 1/3 faster in theory. Still, the fact that it focuses only on 1 unit means its strategic value is limited: if you don't plan (or need) the T2 unit, you can't benefit from the RG boost. Slightly below target.

RG2 assessment: economy << military
RG2 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases (weirdly, two voters said they always picked the Harbor boost; otherwise it was 3 "always military" and 5 "usually military") ==> agreement.

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +200 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Builders require 60% less gold to build Watchtowers, Roads and Fortresses ”. This is hard to evaluate. If we assume a player has 2 to 3 Builders in late game (turn 41 to 60) and that at least 2 are active every other turn to build a road on 7 hexes or build a Watchtower, that's a spending of about 35-40 gold x 2 /2 = about 35 gold per turn. If this is decreased by 60%, the gold saving is about 21 gold per turn, which is totally below target. The saving also does not really scale up in later stages of the game. Significantly below target

MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 2.5 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade by one tier (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
“Cavalry gets +2 Physical melee damage ”. This contradicts the rule that it should not target units already boosted by RG1 and RG2 (Human Cavalry T2 boosted by RG2). It boosts the racial T3 by giving it the equivalent of 0.5 medal (damage of 2 medals but no HP and no defense/resistance boost) and it boosts all the class cavalry (Mounted Archers only in fact) and the Human Cavalry (T2). Overall, it gives 25% of the expected boost for the racial T3 and not even 25% of the expected boost for the T1 and T2 (though it boosts a class T3). So overall it's not even +50% of the expected boost. Below target + rule breaking.

RG3 assessment: economy < military
RG3 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Builders Hall, Siege Workshop and Masters Guild all provide +15 Production”. This can add up to +45 production and even +67 for Cheerful city. The analysis would need to be refined but it can certainly reduce production time by 1 turn in many cases. If we use figures from the analysis of Orc RG3 and RG5, and we consider a quarter of the 10.5 cities i.e. 2.5 cities have a Masters' Guild, and we apply a gain of 50 gold (at best, due to Produce Merchandise) every 2 turns, that's a gain of about 62 gold/turn. On top of that, it is probably safe to assume another quarter of cities benefit from the Builders' Hall or the Siege Workshop and the gains through Produce Merchandise is about +30 gold every 2 turns, so that's a further 2.5*30/2= 37 gold/turn. In total, we're at about 100 gold/turn, so only half of the expected gain Below target.

MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
“City Upgrades that provide a Medal rank to specific produced units provide 2 Medal ranks instead. ”. This does not directly fit the description of the boost. It can give +1 medal to Pikeman, Infantry, Archer and Cavalry units. This seems insufficient compared to the criteria (and the fact that RG3 should provide +1 tier to 2-3 T1 and T2 units. - Below target.
RG4 assessment: economy = military
RG4 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> here it seems players indeed consider the production boosts offered by RG4 eco to be insufficient.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +300 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Produce Merchandise increases city income by 100% instead of 50%.”. The hypothesis for late game is an empire of 8-20 cities, so 14 in average. If we keep the assumption of +50 gold/turn with Produce Merchandise from RG4 (though that assumption is for Cities or Metropolises, but in late game, many cities will be that size), the bonus can stack up to 700 gold/turn, however it is unlikely that that many cities will stop production. In any case, it is likely that the target is met. Meets target.

MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
“Humans gain +1 Resistance , +1 Defense and +1 Physical melee and ranged damage.". Meets target.

RG5 assessment: economy = military
RG5 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> disagreement, either voters under-evaluate the economic gains from Produce Merchandise late game or I over-valued it.


Following these 3 assessments, I think the criteria should be lowered further:
- RG3 eco: +100 gold / turn is too much, probably aim for +80 gold/turn; and later stages: +160 instead of +200
- RG3 military: +2.5 medals for the racial T3 is still too much, let's say +2 medals? And for the 2-3 T1 and 2 units, +1 tier is also too much, let's say +2 medals.
- RG4 eco: +160 gold/turn then +240 gold/turn in end game
- RG5 eco: +240 gold/turn
 

gladis

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I mostly give feedback based on my PBEM experience and how I would choose by feeling in game. And I gave ideas to buff some RGs because I like the diversity and we should not just delete the weak once entirely.

Humans:

RG1
Eco: should be fine after the mod-change, more useful in bigger games than in duels of course.

Military: Used it in 2 games I think and it was useful but not really OP I think.
RG2
Eco: Never chose this. Fluksen once did and had ~2 Harbors at this stage and built ~2 additional later. He was a Rogue and therefore didn´t go for Cavalry. I would like to keep the RG and find a solution to make Harbors more useful/common in general. The easiest way to do so is making boats more useful/cheaper?. The (discussed) debuff of other units while positioned in/above water could be a 1st step because it makes them more vulnerable to boat attacks. I think there should be more roamer spawns on sea, too.

Military: In one game (former 4x2) I was quite succesful with it (no need to discuss the outcome of the game and all circumstances). At least the game showed how strong the tactic can be for a WL who also benefits from 'Conqueror' while other WL´s buffs also synergize with Cavalry. Fluksen´s says the only other class which would benefit from this RG would be DN. Sure, Aide Arms are fun in Manual combat and Cavalry/Knights are Armored and therefore receive an additional defense by Empire Upgrade. As a Theo you usually never produce Cavalry, but if you receive them as Quests/Tribute etc. they are useful with their Devout trait.
RG3
Eco: Fluksen chose it in this game also - while the Harbor tactic seemed interesting, I couldn´t really understand that choice - he was playing Rogue so no intention to go for Cavaly ofc, but it is just really weak. The RG should also make Builder´s cheaper (25%) and bestowing them +4 MP and maybe Fast Embark (are Bridges and Water Fortresses less expensive, too?). Than it could be interesting for a land based race like Humans.

Military: I would rather keep this one than RG2 Military. Haven´t you forgotten Manticores? This RG is obviously easy to buff if needed.
RG4
Eco: Seldomly reached RG4 with Humans, but as I played Orcs Theo which have a similar RG (as you mentioned) I should at least give some input. In general, I guess building a Siege Workshop only makes sense in 1/5 of your cities (at best) and Building a Masters Guild only makes sense to build in 1 or 2 cities while playing Theo or DN to produce T4 in two turns or class T3 in one turn. Maybe I am lazy to build those Buildings but I guess you should only calculate with 1.5 cities having a Guild and - because you won´t have the Gold to run production entirelessly - you should change it to 1 city.
The 2.5 for cities having AND benefit from BH and SW seems ok but maybe you only can run the production constantly in 2 cities (so 3 producing cities in total). At least I have this stats in mind while playing the Orc Theo in a 3v3. Other stats were: turn 60, ~12 cities + 1 Dwelling, huge army, constantly less than 1000 Gold. I produced as much T4 as I could at my throne + Crusaders in another City (ofc more cities were able to do so, but I simply couldn´t afford it as I simply hadn´t more sites to clear). Additionally, I was switching the production of T3 in two other cities more or less turn by turn - the other had to produce Merchandise. So your calculations would drop even more. But especially the fast production of T4 can win games for you, so my overall conclusion is 'slightly below target', giving the focus on strong production classes and the Gold Problem - I don´t think I made a tactical error in this game, my eco was strong, you simply can´t build more expensive Units. And only Building Crusaders in one turn is out of date at this game stage. On the other Hand, endless Gold but weak production isn´t the best solution either.

Military: We should check whether Shadow Stalkers get an additional rank, too with the last Class Building - are there similar class buildings?! But apart from that, you even didn´t calculate that ONLY new built Units receive the boost - on the other hand, even T4 can get an extra level. Maybe it would be better for RG3 if it´s not OP at this stage - you could exclude T4 in this case.
RG5
Eco: In late game, I usually found cities at spots with high Production or Research - or at sites which give MCU (usually those aims synergy) - and a lot of them are rather small ones. I mention this because I guess Merchandise never gives you +50 Gold per City. I would calcualte with 35 I guess. And like I said before, having Gold only but no production isn´t a good idea. Well, Maybe you have a lot MC Units but nomally the focus should turn to the production of units in Late Game because sites and Independent Units aren´t endlessly. So I think you will produce in at least 1/3 of your cities. So my calculation would be 12 (cities) x 0,66 x 35 Gold (additional Merchandise) = 277 Gold. One thing we maybe should keep in mind: This RG pushes you to rather build Units in your dwellings, while the Production based RG4 should make you to produce in your cities.
I should be able to give more Input in my next turn og our current 4x2 game - I just remembered that I have War Efforts running so Maybe the Gold Income is even lower in general.

Military: That one is an easy one to compare to the target ofc. One thing which is obvious but we never should forget while comparing to other RG5: Every class and race unit + Heroes benefit + Resistance gets more important in late game because there simply is more elemental damage. Without checking, my feeling is that most others RG5 won´t be that strong, but giving your target, it seems alright. +1 Resistance probably is rated the same than +1 melee and range.​
 
Last edited:

gladis

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Hili, I generally understand you point of "We're not looking for ideas on how to change RG at this stage. What we're looking for is good targets for each RG level, cf. second post, and then an assessment of each race's RG." But the thing is: We loose time and some players maybe aren´t motivated to invest time now for target-ssessment and then contribute another time to bring in ideas to change obviously weak/OP RGs. So you should already collect good ideas.

Orcs:

RG1
Eco: @ Rodmar: Barracks are already 50 cheaper because of the inherent trait. But apart from that, Hili is totally right, the RG doesn´t meet the target. It can be really interesting to produce Cavalry as soon as possible, to gain Military power, but I don´t think it is worth it - and usually you go for T2 class Units where you already have the corresponding Building. Right now my only idea is that War Hall gives additionally an extra level to racial T1 units.

Military: Yes, the RG is weak but the idea is very fitting for the race. So we should only buff the existing one which is no problem once we are sure about the target. Buffing 2 units isn´t a problem for me becaue they are nearly the same type of unit (slow melee) which doesn´t give you a lot of tactical possibilities. So I would simply rate it as one unit.
RG2
Eco: I usually choose it because there are a lot of Options to further buff Happiness to reach the next threshold - and because RG Military is way more weak. The Arena buff is nice for Theo because the Crusaders are strong - and ok for WL. For the rest of classes it is rather weak.

Military: Same opinion than Hili. Razerbows should rather get a special ability or the RG should get changed completely. Some brainstorming: The Orcs are a melee race and usually, the range units should get bullied by the tough fighters all the time. This could make them experts in some nasty tactics to avoid getting bullied. Maybe they make the Swordsmen fight against each other by some sort of manipulation. So what about giving them Taunt or the 'new' ability 'Berserk' due to Karissa´s item? Would make sense because she was an Orc leader as well! You even can imagine they helped them in this case because she obviously wanted some Ranged Units in her troops!
RG3
Eco: Like I wrote in Human RG4 Eco, I think it only makes sense in rare cases to build expensive T3 and T4 class Units - but it was helpful for building Shrines of Smiting which is rather late game ofc.

Military: Usually I take Eco but maybe I underestimate Guard Breaker - but below target for sure. Maybe hand them Energy Drain or Life Stealing like Rodmar supposed.
RG4
Eco: No need for me to comment about your Goblin comparison :p
Am I wrong or made you a mistake in your calculations: If you have 3 Citadells, you get 30 Gold and 30 Mana in total. So with rating Mana equal valuabe than Gold, you receive at least 60 Gold + the saving of 10 gold per turn. additionally, you save turns in production so you can produce Merchandise. So I guess you should correct your calculations? I wonder though whether you really go for 3 Citadells as Troopers are land based.

Military: Maybe another buff for another unit should be added. And The Troopers should get MCI like Rodmar supposed (I thought they already have this inherent - should be changed IMO) and additionally they chould get an ability similar to Rallying Cry which buffs the surrounding Orc units.
RG5
For me it is too similar to RG3 - I didn´t need it in my 3v3 game. Maybe we should think About a totally new RG later - or hand some Mana/Research instead of Production Bonus.

Military: It´s a good RG and makes sense but compared to Human RG5 it is weaker because it doesn´t affect cavalry/heroes. + You should compare the UP a DN Heroehas to spend to get physical protection and compare it to melee/range/defense boni.
 
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gladis

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>>>> Big Beetle could have Fast Healing because of the mount's physiology, and/or an explosive poisoned death (when the beetle's belly spills ichor around)
Good ideas!

>>>> Perhaps exchange Production for Happiness (not sure about the conversion ratio). It would make sense that a Goblin town surrounded by marshes would have a higher morale, because the inhabitants would know they can flee at will and never suffer hunger. To be monitored: the extra income from happiness events.
Excellent note, if we calculate the additional income due to Happiness and Merchandising, we should Need to monitor the additional income from Happiness Events also. I did so in my Excel Calculator (which yet needs a lot of work to be useful). My idea was to calculate the possible incomes due to Festivals by multiplying the income (That should be the total amount of the follwowing lists: 'City Income'+'Bonuses'+Happiness) with the specific factor 3 [Gold] or 4 [Mana, Knowledge and Population]). Then multiplying this with the chance for a Festival Event. Then multiplying with chance for each specific Festival (there are 5 different ones so the factor is 0,2). This leads to 0,04 x 0,2 = 0,008 for a Very Happy City and 0,1 x 0,2 = 0,02 for a Cheerful City. If you multiply these factors with the city´s income, you get the theoretical (Gold, Mana, Knowledge, Population) income per turn. This is working already in my Excel (except I don´t care about the automatic production Event), but for you it will be really difficult in your calculations. So I gave you an idea to make it more handy:

Population Festivals are a bit lame and Production/Knowledge Festivals aren´t very useful in some occacions, so I would just use the Factor '3' (=Gold factor) in case of an Event and multiply it with the Gold Income.
So I would just do the following calculations: Gold Income x Chance for Festivals (0,04 or 0,1) x 3.
For a Very Happy City: Gold Income x 0,12
For a Cheerful City: Gold Income x 0,3
In case a former Very Happy City becomes Cheerful, the additional income per turn would be: Gold Income x 0,18

Opinions?
 
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Rodmar18

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Haven´t you forgotten Manticores? And Human Heroes should also get +2 melee?
Yes, he has! But Heroes are Mounted, not Cavalry units (no unit can belong to two categories).

On Humans, then, still giving ideas rather than sharing experience.

RG1
Military: You forgot the Harpoon Thrower who gets Throw Net at elite. To me, this RG is like: Do I want to produce Civic Guards or not?​

RG2
Economic: Harbor would be too situational? Though, Harbors and ships are iconic of a faction with the Mariner ability (even if the later can be seen as a swimming ability, indeed). Why not using another, less situational building as well? There is no market building in game, but the agrarian focus of Human cultures could be represented by the Storehouse. Let's say that at heptatopy (7 cities), you have 2 coastal cities with harbors and 5 land cities, all of them with storehouses. 100 = 25x2 + 10x5, so let's give +50 pop (=5 gold) +5 gold to Storehouse as well.

Military: This RG would be chosen when one wants to focus on Knights, so let's buff Knights as well. Either give them Quick Learner as well, so that you can have Iron Will Knights faster, or grant Knights Volunteer (so as to make their upkeep cost the same as Cavalry's), or both. Eventually, you can balance this with less life or a higher cost. Perhaps, this would make Knights more valuable to Warlords (mainly due to the 100% Spirit Protection at elite).
RG3
Economic: The idea would be to make Humans very fit at aggressive expanding through making Builders (and Settlers?) able to be brought on the front line (or just behind), so that fortifications (then cities) can be build faster. Builders could have similar stats and abilties as Battering Ram (they already have same 28 MP and nearly same HP (60 to 65), though they are T3). Builders (and Settlers?) would have +2 DEF, +2 RES, Reinforced, and why not Sprint. That would bring them to 10/10 DEF/RES, as compared to 12/10 for Battering Ram (+4 DEF vs ranged physical attacks). As well (or alternatively), Builders could have Repair Walls.

Military: Yes, you forgot the Manticore as a T4 class cavalry unit. If you want to boost cavalry units (2 base + 2 WL), you could consider making them "fearless" and psychologically reliable. Manticore has already MCI, and Knight gets MCI and +100% Spirit Protection at elite. Any cavalry unit could receive a +20% (+40%?) Spirit Protection. They could also receive Good Morale. This would make them harder to demoralize.
RG4
Economic: You are looking for 100 gold more. You have 2.5 cities with 3 buildings that can Produce Merchandise every over turn, and 2.5 less developped cities with 2 buildings that can Produce Merchandise every over turn as well. Let's assume that the other 5.5 cities have only a Builders' Hall (and no free turn to produce merchandises). That sums up to 18 buildings, of which 12.5 can participate to Produce Merchandise. 100 = 18*n + 12.5*n*50%/2 or n = 4.76 = 5.
You could add +5 gold to each production building. Well, you get the idea.

Military: Manticores count here as well! And don't forget that Cavalry is special because it evolves into a Knight. So, how is it worth to get an additional medal when you already produce veteran Cavalry? If we compute the ratio (Expert - Veteran)/(Elite - Veteran), we see that producing a Cavalry at Expert rank will save 1/3 the XP needed to evolve into a Knight (that's 35 XP needed to become an elite). Not discussing the validity of your point, but doesn't it count (or how does it count) if you can get elite units faster? If you can produce elite units? (Dreadnought's Archer, Drone, Musketeer, and Golem, Theocrat's Priest)


 

gladis

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@Rodmar18
Humans RG2: Can you please clarify in your original post what you mean by your calculation "100 = 25x2 + 10x5"?
I see "2" is the number of coastal cities and "5" land cities. 25 because it is the Gold value of 50 Population? Please be more specific.


Not totally understand your thought in RG4 military either. E. G. Drones are not producable.

Goblins:

RG1
Eco: Already gave opinion

Military: Maybe add Swarm Darters
RG2
Eco: It can be really good, yes.

Military: +5 HP for Irregulars (MH, Assassins, Engineers) are not that much but despite your estimations I chose Military RG in our 4x2 game as you sometimes lack Great Farms. But I admit that for classes without Irregulat Units, the Military is rather crap, maybe add Infantry.
RG3
Eco: I think it is pretty good because it makes all your Goblin cities and units only negatively affected by Arctic Climate which is very useful. I don´t understand where your 20 % less income comes from. You should rather estimate that the cities are Content but will get Happy with the RG. Or that they are Happy and becoming Very Happy. So their income will get a raise of 15 %. And I would decrease the affected cities to 0,25:
7,5 x 0,25 x 100 Gold x 0,15 = 28 Gold. + Higher possibility of Festivals.
Let´s say the RG pushes one City to be Very Happy with a Gold Income of 60.
With my yesterday´s estimations this would lead to a theoretical additional Gold Income per turn of 60 Gold x 0,12 = 7 Gold.
So an Empire-Wide Bonus of 35 Gold which is nearly 50 % of the new target of 80 Gold. On later game stages, some cities will get Festivals because of this and be Cheerful. So it should scale up well.
Because the Eco-Target is only half-met, the Military use of this RG has to achieve the other half, which means it needs to met 50 % of the Military target of 2 medals for the racial T3 and 2 medals for some T1/T2. This means 1 medal for racial T3 and 1 medal for some T1/T2 Units.


So let´s define the Military use of the RG.
Info: Some medals give High Morale (200 Happiness).
If you have troops in Volcanic (Hated) or Tropical (Disliked) Terrain, they are at least Indifferent now which "gives" them +300 Happiness (former Hated + additional 200 if on Wetlands) or +150 Happiness (former Disliked). So let´s say it would be equal to one total medal. Then we need to estimate how the percentage of your Units benefitting is (because they are in Volcanic/Tropical Climate): ~0,2?
But it affects not only the Big Beetle and some T1/T2 but all racial-class units including T3, Leader, possible Heroes and Manticores, so I think it meets the targets listed above and scales up with the use of more T3/T4 Units in late game.


Military: Below target, see Rodmar´s ideas. I always choose Eco and never regret it.

RG4

Eco: The RG is superb right now - one player only has to know how strong it really is - a better description would help...

Military: Only tried this once and then the game was forfeited to some weird/unfair reasons. But I feel like the Beetle Command should get a small price decrease also.
RG5
Eco: No big need because of the strong RG4. Maybe it makes sense for Rogue (Stalkers), and DN (Cannons or Tanks) to produce expensive T3 in one turn (together with RG4 Eco). And the reason they are Elementals and Machines make the Military choice less attractive (+ DN can cast Supress Nature). So I guess we need to take a closer look at the 1-turning possibility. Starting with the possibility of one-turning Manticores at your throne for instance.

A Goblin Manticore with Training Regimen and Racial Trait only needs 238 Production Points [270 * (1-0,2-0,1) + 70 * (1-0,2-0,1)]; Gold and Mana values separately rounded down in case of odd values].
Estimations: Cheerful Metropolis with 3 Class Buildings, Builders Hall and Siege Workshop, Radius of 8 (217 total hexes), 50 Wetland Hexes (30 due to Terraforming):
Production:
Base: 100 [40 (Metropolis) + 20 (BH) + 10 (SW) + 30 (RG3 Class Buildings)]
Bonuses: 60 [10 (RG3 inherent bonus) + 50 (RG5 Wetlands)]
Happiness: 80 [(100+60)*0,5)]
This leads to a total Production of 240.
So a production in one turn would be possible without any Sites in the city´s Domain.
Terraforming to achieve the additional needed Wetlands would cost an approximately 30 *12 = 360 Mana, but WL usually don´t need that much Mana and you normally start to transform some hexes in mid-game already.

Estimations for Shadow Stalkers (240 Production):
Cheerful Metropolis with 3 Class Buildings (last for medal), Builders Hall and Siege Workshop, Radius of 8 (217 total hexes), 51 Wetland Hexes (30 due to Terraforming):
Production:
Base: 100 [40 (Metropolis) + 20 (BH) + 10 (SW) + 30 (RG3 Class Buildings)]
Bonuses: 60 [10 (RG3 inherent bonus) + 50 (RG5 Wetlands)]
Happiness: 80 [(100+60)*0,5)]
This leads to a total Production of exactly 240, so so a production in one turn would be possible without any Sites in the city´s Domain and an additional needed use of Mana of 30*12 = 360 Mana. A Rogue needs quite some mana, but should be no Problem either given the fact we are arleady around turn 60.

Estimations for Flame Tanks (with Mana Fuel Factory it consumes 156 Production [140*0,9 + 30):
Very Happy Town (mid-game founded) with 2 Class Buildings, Builders Hall and Siege Workshop, Radius of 5 (91 total hexes), 20 Wetland Hexes, Magma Forge:
Production:
Base: 95 [30 (Town) + 20 (BH) + 10 (SW) + 20 (RG3 Class Buildings) + 5 (Blast Furnace) + 10 Magma Forge]
Bonuses: 30 [10 (RG3 inherent bonus) + 20 (RG5 Wetlands)]
Happiness: 38 [(95+30)*0,3)]
This leads to a total Production of 163, so so a production in one turn would be possible. And often you settle your cities at Flowrock Quarry to receive the MCU for Machines, so that would be an additional 13 Production. With a Master Siege or a Cheerful City you can reach 156 Production without this RG, so Maybe it doesn´t make sense every game.
But a Juggernaut consumes 368 Production so you would need 184 to build it in two tuns - so you would need the RG5 in this case.
Military: They also get +5 HP, also needs to be described properly ingame. Seems to be a fair RG5. https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Goblins
 
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Rodmar18

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@gladis:
  • Sorry, you couldn't understand because I made an error in my example.
As you guess, two harbours would bring 25x2 = 50 equivalent gold. Then, we would have seven storehouses, and we lack 50 equivalent gold, at least.
50 =~ 49 = 7x7, so each storehouse could generate 25 pop (2.5 gold) + 5 gold. But as I figure that we don't have to have exactly 100 gold, the proposal can be tuned in numerous ways.
  • Yes, I cited Drones and they don't benefit from Masters' Guild, etc, as they are summoned.
  • About Human Military RG4, I understand that the objective is not met on the paper, but I think that it's undeniable that granting base and class units a medal more is not only like giving them an equivalent part tier.
  1. Here, it would affect many units (all produced infantry, archers, cavalry, supports, and machines). I will spare you the listing, and you know that T1/T2 units will be produced at Expert rank instead of Veteran (even at Elite for those affected by Dreadnought's or Theocrat's Empire Upgrade). T3/T4 will be produced at Veteran instead of Trainee.
  2. Several units get an ability at Veteran, and most of them get one at Elite. That means that all of a sudden, your armies get other tactics, not on a unit basis (I agree with this), but as a whole. As an example, producing Veteran Manticores alone means that they can heal faster.
  3. Even if they are not that buffed for now, all your units are closer to Elite rank anyways. The faster you'll have First Strike, Iron Will, Projectile Resistant, Tireless, etc units (or Cavalry evolving after but two battles), the faster you can enjoy new tactics on the battlefield.
In short, I'm not contesting Hiliadan's point, only the equivalence calculation it's based on. Although my arguments might not be sufficient to make current RG4 appearing like it is balanced, it would be worth testing RG4 in a pitched battle (or rather, to be consistent with what I'm saying, a succession of smaller pitched battles, so that the levelling-up starts buffing surviving units). Even if my point doesn't win by itself, it could be considered to lessen the expectation about the future RG4.​
 

Hiliadan

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@gladis and @Rodmar18: it seems you guys have been talking about proposals for new RG upgrades. As I said, it is not the time to discuss that now. Discussing one's experience with the RG independently of the criteria is also not useful I think. So I skipped all your posts (as they're quite long). Please point to me areas where you have been discussing criteria to assess the current RG and valuations of current RG based on the criteria (and please keep it as short as possible).

@All:
Please vote on the polls on RG for these races:
- Frostlings
- Halflings
- High Elves

Let's assess:
Draconians
RG was assessed based on the criteria above. A poll was also run among competitive PBEM players: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=40 I compare the results of the poll and of the assessment below:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"Shrines in Draconian cities cost 35 gold less to build."
With an average of 2 cities and assuming you build 1 Shrine per city, that's a gain of 70 gold, over a duration of 10-20 turns, it's a gain of 3.5 to 7 gold/turn. Adding up the turn saved by using 1 turn instead of 2 to build the Shrine and the extra +10 mana one turn earlier, that broadly meets the criteria. It does not scale up too badly in late game. Meets target.


MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive a excellent boost (making it equivalent to a T2) or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Draconian Flamer gets +1 Defense and +5 Health”.
The boost is equivalent to only 1-1.5 medals so it's definitely not "an excellent boost" and it does not make the unit equivalent to a T2. Below target.

RG1 assessment: military < economy
RG1 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases, and actually almost "Always economy (much stronger)" ==> in agreement with the assessment.

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Magma Forges give +10 Production”.
Hard to assess. If we consider 50% of cities have a Magma Forge, that's 2 cities (3-5 cities for RG2). As explained in the example given at the bottom of the first post (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/balancing-racial-governance.1201983/), the bonus can translate into a production moving from 80 to 93 and allowing to one-turn Elders and 2-turn War Hall for instance. If we assume that means an additional Produce Merchandise every 2 turns, and that it brings +30 gold each time, that's 2*30/2 = +30 gold/turn. I think it is probably an optimistic evaluation.
In later game stages, it can become more interesting as the availability of other production boosting buildings or structures means other threshold (than 90 prod) can be exceeded and more 1-turning can be unlocked. More cities are also affected, so it is possible to reach an equivalent of +100.
Overall, it is probably weaker than +40 gold/turn, though a more precise analysis would be useful. Slightly below target.


MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Draconian Charger and Draconian Crusher gain Regrowth”.
That does boost 2 units. Regrowth can be considered equal to 2 medals (without the associated +1 def, +1 res, +2 damage, +4 HP). For higher tier units, it would be insanely good, but for T1, it is better balanced because they usually die in 1 turn of battle (in auto in big battles) due to their low HP and low def/res. It is however quite good in manual. So probably Slightly above target.


RG2 assessment: economy < military
RG2 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement.

RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Your Leader (any race) and all your Draconian Heroes get +10 ”.
Impossible to evaluate with normal economic criteria. +10 CP has certainly a significant impact on the game. The RP cost to get +10 CP ranges from 60 to 900, which is equivalent to 180 to 2700 gold at the 3 gold = 1 RP "exchange rate". Over 10-20 turns, +80 gold/turn is equivalent to 800-1600 gold. Seen another way, +10 CP is about +100-200 CP over 10-20 turns, which allows to cast 1-2 Sanctified Sites or Paid Absolution for instance, leading to probably +15 gold per city with 7.5 cities, or +112.5 gold/turn in the first case (if we consider an average income per city of 100; probably an overestimate) and +20-30 gold/turn in the second. And that is not counting the boost to heroes. Again, it's hard to assess this boost, but I think it is comparable to the target late game target. Meets target.


MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade with the equivalent of 2 medals (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
Draconian Supports are 20% Cheaper”.
This is not really a military boost and it may be very underwhelming for some classes given that the Draconian racial T3 is not a Support so only the Elder and class units like the Shaman, the Evangelist, the Reanimator and the Bard benefit. If we are optimistic and assume 3 Support units are built every turn and if we consider they are T3 like Evangelists (150 gold, 30 mana), then the saving is (30 gold and 6 mana) x 3 = 90 gold and 18 mana, which exceeds the economic RG criteria. This scales up very well in later stages of the game.
Depending on the class and strategy (building Elder or not), this RG can meet target (or exceed it) or undershoot it (e.g. for Warlords). Meets target but class-dependent (not very useful for Warlord)


RG3 assessment: economy = military or economy > military depending on class.
RG3 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases, with 5 out of 9 people always choosing economy (CP boost) ==> kind of agreement but appears to confirm that the Military RG is too situational (class dependent), and might need a boost.

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
“The Peak of the Forefathers:
  • Is 100 gold cheaper
  • Increases the city's Vision Radius by 2
  • Provides +1 Medal Rank to units produced in the city.
If we take similar assumptions as Orc RG4 (Dark Citadel 100 gold cheaper), the cost reduction is a saving of 200 gold spread of 20 turns so 10 gold/turn. Unlike Orc RG4, this RG does not give extra gold or mana so is economically quite weak. However, it gives +2 Vision Radius which is interesting (but limited as cities with Peak of the Forefathers are likely to be deep in one's empire and thus not requiring extra vision). The +1 medal to all units can be assessed as having a value of at least 50 x 4 = 200 gold (equivalent to Guard House + Arena + Shooting Ground + the Cavalry boost building), but actually more as it also boosts Support (Lab) and Irregular, which is usually impossible. It also makes it possible to reach level impossible without it, including Elite units when combining the 2 medals from the Peak + medal from the normal medal building + an Empire upgrade such as Theocrat's Order of Sacred Support. Also, it's somehow comparable to Human military RG4 (2 instead of 1 medal from buildings boosting unit types) which was also judged "Below target".
Still, the total value is probably below 160 gold/turn and possibly significantly below it.
Below target.


MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
Draconian Flyer gains +6 and Martial Arts ”.
This does not open entirely new strategies for the Flyer but it can indeed change the results of closely matched battles thanks to Martial Arts. And in any case, the +6 MP is very very strong. Meets target or Above target.

RG4 assessment: economy << military
RG4 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> agreement.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Great Temples provide +20 Mana, +20 Knowledge and +200 Happiness.”.
In general, I don't think Great Temples are built in competitive games, even on Large maps (or very few of them). So it would make sense to take into account the cost of building them to benefit from the bonus here. But to simplify, let's consider 25% of cities have Great Temples, with an average of 14 cities.
That's +70 mana and +70 knowledge per turn, with maybe half the cities getting +20% income (with an average gold income of 100 and let's say 50 mana, 20 knowledge), that's an additional +35 gold, +17.5 mana and 7 RP. In total, with 3 gold = 1 RP and 2 gold = 1 mana, we have a boost of about 441 gold/turn. Given that quickly after you reach RG5, the RP are going to become useless as you have researched all your skills, and given that the hypotheses are probably optimistic, I'd say that it broadly: Meets target.
The issue with this RG is that it really makes Draconian the perfect fit for AD and Sorcerer as RG1, RG3 and RG5 are all very good for spellcasting classes.


MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
Draconian Infantry, Pikeman and Irregular units gain +4 Fire Melee Damage".
Fire is the most resisted element and the RG does not give any defense or resistance, or ranged damage boost, so it seems weaker than the criteria and also too situational. Below target.


RG5 assessment: economy > military
RG5 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> disagreement, probable over-valuation of the economy RG5, especially taking into account what I said about Great Temples never being built in competitive games, so probably need to re-assess it.


Following this 4th assessment, I'm pondering the following changes to the criteria:
- RG1 military: equivalent to 2 medals for 1 unit (and not to making it a T2).
 
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Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
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Please vote on the polls on RG for these races:
- Frostlings
- Halflings
- High Elves
- Tigrans (new one)

I'm starting to aggregate the results to get an overview of RG assessments, you can find it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...XxjVz385OTaSG77iKeK/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

Let's assess:
Dwarves
RG was assessed based on the criteria above. A poll was also run among competitive PBEM players: http://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=41 I compare the results of the poll and of the assessment below:

RG1:
ECONOMY
Early game: equivalent to +8 gold/turn over the whole empire
Mid game and later: limited effect – the boost should not scale up too easily at later stages because it’s very easy to get RG1 with new races
"Stone Walls give +75 happiness"
As I noted for Orc economy RG2 "The +50 happiness rarely matters because happiness threshold are usually affected only when bonuses reach 100 (or close to)". However, as DreadReapr pointed out to me, in early game, even +25 happiness can make a difference when you rush production. The Throne usually start at ~280 happiness, and thus having at least +20 happiness means you can rush at least once without going below the 200 happiness threshold. +75 happiness can also allow to cross threshold in more cases than +50. Stone Walls give +1 domain range so can be useful to build, but I feel like they're very rarely built when not playing Dwarves. So let's assume 1 out of 4 cities have Stone Walls and that it allows this city to cross a threshold. If we consider an average income of 30-35 gold/turn and 2 cities, the gain is about 0.5*30*0.2 = 1.2 gold/turn. Building a Wall on the 2nd city is not really worth it: 0.5*30-100/20= +1 gold/turn (cost of the Wall scattered over 20 turns).
The bonus does scale up a bit late game but not too much. Significantly below target.


MILITARY
Early game: 1 T1 unit receive the equivalent to 2 medals or 2 units receive very good boost equivalent to 1 medal – the boost can be a useful ability, doesn’t have to be only a raw power boost
Mid game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Dwarf Crossbowman gets +2 Physical ranged damage.”.
The boost is not even equivalent to 1 medal (2 medals of damage but 0 medal of defense/resistance and HP). Below target.

RG1 assessment: military > economy
RG1 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> in agreement with the assessment.

RG2:
ECONOMY
Mid game: equivalent to +40 gold/turn over the whole empire
Late game: equivalent to +100 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: should not go over equivalent to +200 gold/turn over the whole empire, for the same reason as RG1
“Dwarves Cities gain +3 Gold income for each Gold Mine.”.
If we consider cities have in average 1 Gold Mine, that's 4 Gold Mines (3-5 cities for RG2). So in total about 4*3*1.2 = 14 gold/turn.
In later game stages, this scales up a lot but probably not over +200 gold/turn.
I consider this a good RG but we see here that's clearly below the target: maybe the target is too high? Below target.


MILITARY
Mid game: one unit type (Irregular, Infantry, Archer, Cavalry, Pikeman), i.e. in general 2 units, is boosted with the equivalent of 2 medals (e.g. HP AND +2 damage, or +1 def/+1 res, or 1 ability, etc.), or 2 units outside a unit type are similarly boosted
Late game and later: keep the boosted units useful
Dwarf Axeman and Dwarf Deepguard gain +2 Physical melee damage.”.
That does boost 2 units. But not even with the equivalent of 1 medals (lacking +1 def, +1 res, +2 damage, +4 HP). Below target.


RG2 assessment: economy = military
RG2 assessment from the poll: Usually economy, military in rare cases ==> disagreement, probably because the Military one is between "Below target" and "Significantly below target" and also because as I pointed out, the economy one is actually not bad (and the criteria potentially too high).

Still need to assess RG3-RG5.
 

Hiliadan

Major
Jun 17, 2018
608
4
RG3:
ECONOMY
Late game: equivalent to +80 gold/turn over the whole empire
Later stages: equivalent to +160 gold/turn or more over the whole empire
“Pool of the Firstborn generates +20 Production ”.
Similar to Orc RG3 except that it's the racial T3 building and not the Siege Workshop that gives the bonus, which in my opinion makes the RG a lot worse because you build a Siege Workshop when you want more production, whereas here it might not be as synergistic with your strategy for the city.
Let's try to refine the optimist assumptions used for Orc RG3...
If we consider that a typical City late game has 35 base production + 10 from a Magma Forge + 20 from a Builder's Hall + 10 from a Siege Workshop, and is Very Happy, that's 75*1.3 = 97.5 = 98, it means Forgepriests (105), Boar Riders (99) and Firstborns (187) are 2-turned. Getting +20*1.3 production makes Forgepriests and Boar Riders one-turnable, as well as other 100 gold cost buildings, but it's also achievable with a Master Guild, another structure boosting production or Cheerful happiness.
Let's still
consider a saving of 1 turn every 2 turns for 2 (out of 7.5 cities) which would have a Pool of the Firstborn (probably optimistic too: we considered only 3 cities with Dark Citadel for Orc RG4, and here it's Dwarf RG3) with a 100 gold income, that would be 2/2x100x50%=50 gold/turn. We can probably consider that the Pools would have been built anyway so we can omit their costs (adding them and amortizing them over 20 turns lead to adding -400*2/20 = -80 gold/turn, which makes the gain negative).
Below target.


MILITARY
Late game and later stages: boosts significantly (equivalent to 2 medals) the racial T3 unit to make it outcompete other racial T3 or significantly boosts 2-3 T1 and T2 units to make them upgrade with the equivalent of 2 medals (cannot target units already boosted or RG1 and RG2)
Dwarf Firstborn gain Ancient Ancestor and +2 Fire damage.”.
Ancent Ancestor does not work very well in auto-combats as AI does not know how to keep units adjacent to benefit from it. And the +2 Fire damage is only equivalent to less than 0.5 medals (as noted for Human RG3) so it's overall pretty underwhelming. Significantly below target.


RG3 assessment: economy > military
RG3 assessment from the poll: 50/50 between the 2 (similar strength) ==> disagreement, probably showing that I was over-optimistic with the assumptions for the economic RG.

RG4:
ECONOMY
Very late game: equivalent to +160 gold/turn over the whole empire
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
Items build in Item Forges are 35% cheaper."
This RG boost probably comes too late in the game to be really interesting because by RG4, heroes and Leaders are usually well equipped and some items can have already been forged. Let's assume that a city focuses on forging items and that 100% of its production on it. If we consider 35 base production + 10 from a Magma Forge + 20 from a Builder's Hall + 10 from a Siege Workshop + 20 from a Master's Guild, and Cheerful, that's 85*1.5 = 127.5 = 128. The saving is about 0.35*128 = 44 gold (or mana)/turn. Even adding a saving of 1 turn every 2 turns due to faster production does not change that this RG boost undershoots the target by a lot. Significantly below target.


MILITARY
Very late game and later stages: offer a new T3 unit opening up new strategies and stronger than a racial T3 or opens up entirely new strategies for the T3 unit or a type of units (i.e. rare abilities like Invigorate, additional movement). The new strategies should be equivalent to a change of the result of previously “closely matched” 18 vs 18 battles to give clear wins to the boosted units for instance (but does not have to be abilities that impact battles, can be abilities linked to movement).
Dwarves gain Improved Mountaineering”.
This only means Dwarves now use 4 MP/hex instead of 6 MP/hex to walk over Mountains. This does not really open up new strategies and won't change anything in tactical combat. The advantage on the strategic map is pretty hard to assess but I'd say it is a lot weaker than the criteria requires. Significantly below target.


RG4 assessment: economy = military
RG4 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> disagreement, maybe because the Item boost is over-estimated by my assessment and is indeed pretty weak / comes too late.

RG5:
ECONOMY
End game: equivalent to +240 gold/turn over the whole empire
“Hurry Production cost is reduced by 50% and does not reduce city Happiness.”.
This one is pretty hard to assess, it really depends if you Hurry Production a lot or not. Since you do not get any disadvantage for it (no more -100 morale), you can use it every turn if you have the gold, so it can make a big difference when you have a very strong economy.
If we consider that the rushes are 50% for 2 turn productions and 50% for 3 turns production, that's an average gain of (50+100)/2 = 75 gold/rush. On top of that, we can consider that at least one (but potentially 2) levels of happiness is saved, equating to at least 100*0.15 = 15 gold per city (with an average income of 100). If we consider 3 rushes per turn, so 3 cities involved (I struggle to estimate how many rushes would be made every turn... it can be more), that's a gain of 3*75+3*15=270 gold/turn.
Overall, that Meets target.


MILITARY
End game: boosts that make resisting against Deity boosted units almost impossible. Equivalent to ALL units gaining +1 defense and +2 melee and ranged damage.
Dwarf Armored units gain Meteoric Armor (resistance to Armor Piercing, +2 def, +40% Frost and + 40% Fire protection)".
In total, we have the equivalent of ?+3+2+2 upgrade points of a hero vs 1+3+3 for the criteria, so it matches or even exceeds (resistance to Armor Piercing) the criteria. Meets target.


RG5 assessment: economy = military
RG5 assessment from the poll: Usually military, economy in rare cases ==> disagreement, and actually 5 out of 8 people voted "always military" so it does seem like the Military RG is stronger. Personnally I tend to think the eco RG is not that good but I think I under-evaluate production rushes. The economic RG is more situational though: if you're low on gold, you can't really benefit from it, whereas the military RG is always good.
 
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