Balance Update for the Upcoming Content

Ogele

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Apr 20, 2021
67
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Hey everyone!
As promised in an earlier comment in the Kilwa/Mutapa Dev Diary, I am presenting a quick update for the estate privileges as well as the ideas.

I want to point out that our goal is not to introduce more power creep; nobody wants to see that.

Code:
GZI_ideas = {
    start = {
        fort_maintenance_modifier = -0.1
        land_morale = 0.1   #(previously: land_morale = 0.15)
    }

    bonus = {
        trade_efficiency = 0.2
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = GZI
    }
    free = yes
 
    gzi_stone_masonry = {
        build_cost = -0.15
        great_project_upgrade_cost = -0.1
    }
    gzi_ivory_trade = {
        global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
    }
    gzi_gold_deposits = {
        global_tax_modifier = 0.1
        monthly_gold_inflation_modifier = -0.2
    }
    gzi_zimbabwes_walls = {
        defensiveness = 0.25
    }
    gzi_lay_of_the_land = {
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
    gzi_tributary_system = {
        vassal_income = 0.2
    }
    gzi_zimbabwe_birds = {
        production_efficiency = 0.1   #(previously: production_efficiency = 0.15)
    }
}

Code:
AKS_ideas = {
    start = {
        governing_capacity_modifier = 0.15   #(previously: prestige_decay = -0.01)
        discipline = 0.05     #(replaces the land_morale = 0.15)
    }
 
    bonus = {
        global_manpower_modifier = 0.25    #(previously: global_manpower_modifier = 0.33)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = AKS
    }
    free = yes
 
    aks_stellae_builders = {
        prestige = 1
    }
 
    aks_legacy_of_king_kaleb = {
        ae_impact = -0.15
    }
 
    aks_persian_revenge = {
        warscore_cost_vs_other_religion = -0.15    #(previously: province_warscore_cost = -0.25)
    }
 
    aks_christianity_stronghold = {
        tolerance_own = 2
    }
 
    aks_mediterranean_contacts = {    #(previously: technology_cost = -0.1)
        technology_cost = -0.05
        global_institution_spread = 0.1
    }
 
    aks_trade_hub = {
        trade_efficiency = 0.15
    }
 
    aks_coin_minting = {
        inflation_reduction = 0.1
    }
}

Code:
KIT_ideas = {
    start = {
        prestige_decay = -0.01   #(previously: infantry_power = 0.1)
        manpower_recovery_speed = 0.15
    }
  
    bonus = {
        infantry_power = 0.1   #(previously: stability_cost_modifier = 0.15)
    }
  
    trigger = {
        tag = KIT
    }
    free = yes
  
    kit_legacy_of_the_gods = {
        legitimacy = 1
        tolerance_own = 1   #(previously: tolerance_own = 2)
    }
    kit_empire_of_the_light = {
        stability_cost_modifier = -0.1   #(previously: prestige = 1)
    }
    kit_memory_of_aksum = {
        embracement_cost = -0.2
    }
    kit_lakes_dominance = {
        unjustified_demands = -0.2   #(previously: discipline = 0.05)
    }
    kit_bachwezi_earthworks = {
        build_cost = -0.1
    }
    kit_nile_conquest = {
        core_creation = -0.15
    }
    kit_rich_history = {
        culture_conversion_cost = -0.25
    }
}

Code:
NBI_ideas = {
    start = {
        stability_cost_modifier = -0.1   #(previously: land_morale = 0.15)
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
  
    bonus = {
        fire_damage = 0.1   #(previously: prestige = 1)
    }
  
    trigger = {
        tag = NBI
    }
    free = yes
  
    nbi_our_land = {   #(previously: global_unrest = -2  stability_cost_modifier = -0.15 )
        global_unrest = -2
    }
  
    nbi_religious_friction = {
        global_missionary_strength = 0.02
    }
  
    nbi_desert_knowledge = {
        land_attrition = -0.1
    }
  
    nbi_military_strength = {
        discipline = 0.05
    }
  
    nbi_nile_control = {   #(previously: trade_efficiency = 0.1 production_efficiency = 0.1)
        global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
    }
  
    nbi_christian_ties = {
        tolerance_own = 2
    }
  
    nbi_egyptian_relations = {
        adm_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
    }
}

We also have adjusted the ideas of Ethiopia to make them feel a little bit more competitive in the late game:

Code:
ETH_ideas = {
    start = {
        global_autonomy = -0.05
        land_attrition = -0.10
    }
 
    bonus = {
        discipline = 0.05   #(previously: legitimacy = 1)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = ETH
    }
    free = yes    
 
    solomonid_claim = {
        prestige = 1
    }
    nagusa_negast = {
        heir_chance = 0.5
        legitimacy = 1   #New
    }
    hostile_borders = {
        defensiveness = 0.20
        war_exhaustion = -0.03   #New
    }
    diplomatic_demeanor = {
        diplomatic_reputation = 1
    }
    the_ark_of_the_covenant = {
        missionaries = 1
    }
    eth_expansionist_policy = {
        core_creation = -0.10
    }
    eth_reformed_armies = {
        army_tradition = 0.5   #(previously: infantry_power = 0.1)
    }
}

The estate privileges were adjusted too:
clergy_estate_privilege_changes.png

(Religious Culture - Previously: Local Unrest: +2, Local Culture Conversion Cost: -10%, Influence: 15%, Crownland Cost: 0)
(Religious Diplomats - Previously: Loyalty: 0%, Influence: 30%)
Note: we are considering denying access to "Religious Culture" for the Orthodox countries as they are very powerful on their own already. However, this is a decision we would like to make after gathering more feedback from QA and our community. Right now it is just an idea.

nobles_estate_privilege_changes.png

(Nobility Integration Policy - Previously: Was not removed if you have no more subjects left)
Note: "Nobility Integration Policy" gets immediately removed when you have no subjects left.

scholar_privilege_changes.png

(Previously: Influence: 30%, Absolutism: -10)
fetishist_privilege_changes.png

(Build Shrines for Heirs - Previously: Influence: 30%)
(Build Embrace Singular Cult - Previously: Absolutism: -10)
(Flexible Cult - Previously: Influence: 10%, Absolutism: -5)

Note: swapping the Singular Cult comes now at a considerable cost too!

primary_cult_swap_privilege_changes.png


Next point is not quite about the new content, but we figured it is important we mention it. With the replacement of the -1 Tolerance to Heretics for Catholics, we observed that Catholicism dominates Europe, and the reformation gets eradicated after the Age of Reformation. The following image is one of the common occurrences (shoutout to AI Andalusia).
20211020164305_1.jpg

Because of that we decided to increase the speed of the Reformation by 50% and decreased the Morale Bonus of Bless Ruler from 10% to 5%.

20211020163323_1.jpg

20211020163404_1.jpg

Both images above are equally frequent now.

Finally a quick word: it appears that there is a big concern regarding power creep, not only about Origins, but about EU4 in general. We are working on dealing with this issue, trying to be a bit more creative and careful with the new content we will be releasing; keeping it interesting, challenging and rewarding at the same time.

Because of that, we realized that we need to tune down the strength of the national ideas of some formables. About the new mission trees, we are now trying to make them more interactive, giving the player different paths to follow, and making them more flavorful.
 
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blallo

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just as a curiosity, why the -1 tollerance for heretics caused the eradication of protestants? did if affected relationship and without that Catholics were a bit too trigger happy and kept declaring on protestants?
 
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Ogele

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Apr 20, 2021
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just as a curiosity, why the -1 tollerance for heretics caused the eradication of protestants? did if affected relationship and without that Catholics were a bit too trigger happy and kept declaring on protestants?
We have observed that the religious rebels, which were one of the driving forces for the conversion of several tags in Europe, were way less frequent than they used to be.
 
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RMS Oceanic

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just as a curiosity, why the -1 tollerance for heretics caused the eradication of protestants? did if affected relationship and without that Catholics were a bit too trigger happy and kept declaring on protestants?
You misunderstand, they previously swapped out the -1 tolerance for +1 Missionary Strength vs Heathens. Still odd that happened, but still.

Kinda sad Aksum's war score cost got reduced, but it looks good regardless.
 

RMS Oceanic

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Since we're tinkering with reformation mechanics, would it be possible to reconsider Religious Zeal? As an Orthodox player it can be frustrating that my Balkan provinces get converted and apart from a ruinous war with the HRE I have no recourse but to sit and wait for it to pass for 30 years.
 
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I've got to say I like what you did with the new national ideas. Ethiopia's ones look solid now. They lost -10 ICA, but got 5% disc which is likely better over the course of the game and they got - war exhaustion, which is a rare and useful modifier. Also + 0,5 AT is always helpful.

The other ones look solid too. Good enough for a formable, but not game warping. Aksum still looks incredibly solid. I'll love to try them out.

Regarding the privileges, it's hard to give feedback without testing them. Orthodox is a great religion, but remember that most privileges get recalled by age of absolutism (at least in SP). Maybe that changes with better privileges (like the ones announced) and depending on the goal of the run?

With all these extra privileges, it'll be a real headache (the good kind) to pick the privileges that are most useful.
 
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We have observed that the religious rebels, which were one of the driving forces for the conversion of several tags in Europe, were way less frequent than they used to be.
ah that explains why you decided to increase the reformation speed, so that a large chuck of converted europe is created faster, with the side effect of having less heretics running around.

wouldn't have been possible to tie this in into the council of trent?
Secret Confessions giving the +2 tollerance of heretics but -2 conversion strength on heretics so that what is converted stays converted but not many rebel spawn
and Heresy Trials giving -2 tollerance of heretics and +2 conversion speed on heretics, so that you have more rebels but you are in a position to convert them once you weathered the storm?
 
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Mindel

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Finally a quick word: it appears that there is a big concern regarding power creep, not only about Origins, but about EU4 in general. We are working on dealing with this issue, trying to be a bit more creative and careful with the new content we will be releasing; keeping it interesting, challenging and rewarding at the same time.

Because of that, we realized that we need to tune down the strength of the national ideas of some formables. About the new mission trees, we are now trying to make them more interactive, giving the player different paths to follow, and making them more flavorful.

One simple thing you could do to cut down on the power creep would be to nerf missions. Especially PUs, and also permanent claims. There are a huge number of these floating around, and they tend to concentrate around the starting great powers, which only serves to make them even more powerful.

In general, I think missions have become so OP that they tend to completely dictate a player's geopolitical strategy, rather than being side-quests. I don't know if this is intentional. But given the huge rewards given by missions prioritizing conquest, this ends up depressing any tall or diplomatic aspects of the game even more.
 
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Hey I really appreciate the idea of a follow-up post, it shows that you do take the community's feedback seriously and that's cool and all.

But it's hard to see what has been rebalanced here. Which values were changed, from what to what? Are we expected to look up the previous dev diaries ourselves to do a side by side comparison? Sorry to be a grouch but that's my honest first reaction.
 

Mindel

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Finally a quick word: it appears that there is a big concern regarding power creep, not only about Origins, but about EU4 in general. We are working on dealing with this issue, trying to be a bit more creative and careful with the new content we will be releasing; keeping it interesting, challenging and rewarding at the same time.

Because of that, we realized that we need to tune down the strength of the national ideas of some formables. About the new mission trees, we are now trying to make them more interactive, giving the player different paths to follow, and making them more flavorful.
One simple thing you could do to cut down on the power creep would be to nerf missions. Especially PUs, and also permanent claims. There are a huge number of these floating around, and they tend to concentrate around the starting great powers, which only serves to make them even more powerful.

In general, I think missions have become so OP that they tend to completely dictate a player's geopolitical strategy, rather than being side-quests. I don't know if this is intentional. But given the huge rewards given by missions prioritizing conquest, this ends up depressing any tall or diplomatic aspects of the game even more.
To give one very specific example that could use some revision: if Burgundy petitions to join the HRE and gets refused by the emperor, then it gets SEVEN PU claims, on ALL of the imperial electors.

Did no one in QA think this might be a little OP?
 

Ogele

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My question, can and does the AI use all bonuses in all EU content now ?
At this point of time, no. We have to teach the AI yet when to use the new estate privileges but without forcing them to auto-pick them.
Finally!
Is Europe getting more green now or this is just a matter of screenshots chosen?
It's just a matter of screenshots chosen.
Hey I really appreciate the idea of a follow-up post, it shows that you do take the community's feedback seriously and that's cool and all.

But it's hard to see what has been rebalanced here. Which values were changed, from what to what? Are we expected to look up the previous dev diaries ourselves to do a side by side comparison? Sorry to be a grouch but that's my honest first reaction.
Good point. I added now a comment to every single change which describes what the idea / privilege had previously.
 
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I will never understand Devs releasing content that only the player can use. See, this is the problem with the AI.
I don't know why you just can't delay releases until they are ready.
 
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Kind of taking the fun out of the additions and new tags by making them shite tbh. But I know the community by and large preferred these changes so I'm OK with it. Leviathan was significantly more power-creepy both when it comes to new ideas and new features than anything in 1.32 or this DLC.

Also, the entire HRE and almost all of Europe ending up protestant/reformed happening 50% of the time is hilarious to me if that is indeed working as intended.
 
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Hey everyone!
As promised in an earlier comment in the Kilwa/Mutapa Dev Diary, I am presenting a quick update for the estate privileges as well as the ideas.

I want to point out that our goal is not to introduce more power creep; nobody wants to see that.

Code:
GZI_ideas = {
    start = {
        fort_maintenance_modifier = -0.1
        land_morale = 0.1   #(previously: land_morale = 0.15)
    }

    bonus = {
        trade_efficiency = 0.2
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = GZI
    }
    free = yes
 
    gzi_stone_masonry = {
        build_cost = -0.15
        great_project_upgrade_cost = -0.1
    }
    gzi_ivory_trade = {
        global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
    }
    gzi_gold_deposits = {
        global_tax_modifier = 0.1
        monthly_gold_inflation_modifier = -0.2
    }
    gzi_zimbabwes_walls = {
        defensiveness = 0.25
    }
    gzi_lay_of_the_land = {
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
    gzi_tributary_system = {
        vassal_income = 0.2
    }
    gzi_zimbabwe_birds = {
        production_efficiency = 0.1   #(previously: production_efficiency = 0.15)
    }
}

Code:
AKS_ideas = {
    start = {
        governing_capacity_modifier = 0.15   #(previously: prestige_decay = -0.01)
        discipline = 0.05     #(replaces the land_morale = 0.15)
    }
 
    bonus = {
        global_manpower_modifier = 0.25    #(previously: global_manpower_modifier = 0.33)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = AKS
    }
    free = yes
 
    aks_stellae_builders = {
        prestige = 1
    }
 
    aks_legacy_of_king_kaleb = {
        ae_impact = -0.15
    }
 
    aks_persian_revenge = {
        warscore_cost_vs_other_religion = -0.15    #(previously: province_warscore_cost = -0.25)
    }
 
    aks_christianity_stronghold = {
        tolerance_own = 2
    }
 
    aks_mediterranean_contacts = {    #(previously: technology_cost = -0.1)
        technology_cost = -0.05
        global_institution_spread = 0.1
    }
 
    aks_trade_hub = {
        trade_efficiency = 0.15
    }
 
    aks_coin_minting = {
        inflation_reduction = 0.1
    }
}

Code:
KIT_ideas = {
    start = {
        prestige_decay = -0.01   #(previously: infantry_power = 0.1)
        manpower_recovery_speed = 0.15
    }
 
    bonus = {
        infantry_power = 0.1   #(previously: stability_cost_modifier = 0.15)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = KIT
    }
    free = yes
 
    kit_legacy_of_the_gods = {
        legitimacy = 1
        tolerance_own = 1   #(previously: tolerance_own = 2)
    }
    kit_empire_of_the_light = {
        stability_cost_modifier = -0.1   #(previously: prestige = 1)
    }
    kit_memory_of_aksum = {
        embracement_cost = -0.2
    }
    kit_lakes_dominance = {
        unjustified_demands = -0.2   #(previously: discipline = 0.05)
    }
    kit_bachwezi_earthworks = {
        build_cost = -0.1
    }
    kit_nile_conquest = {
        core_creation = -0.15
    }
    kit_rich_history = {
        culture_conversion_cost = -0.25
    }
}

Code:
NBI_ideas = {
    start = {
        stability_cost_modifier = -0.1   #(previously: land_morale = 0.15)
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
 
    bonus = {
        fire_damage = 0.1   #(previously: prestige = 1)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = NBI
    }
    free = yes
 
    nbi_our_land = {   #(previously: global_unrest = -2  stability_cost_modifier = -0.15 )
        global_unrest = -2
    }
 
    nbi_religious_friction = {
        global_missionary_strength = 0.02
    }
 
    nbi_desert_knowledge = {
        land_attrition = -0.1
    }
 
    nbi_military_strength = {
        discipline = 0.05
    }
 
    nbi_nile_control = {   #(previously: trade_efficiency = 0.1 production_efficiency = 0.1)
        global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
    }
 
    nbi_christian_ties = {
        tolerance_own = 2
    }
 
    nbi_egyptian_relations = {
        adm_tech_cost_modifier = -0.1
    }
}

We also have adjusted the ideas of Ethiopia to make them feel a little bit more competitive in the late game:

Code:
ETH_ideas = {
    start = {
        global_autonomy = -0.05
        land_attrition = -0.10
    }
 
    bonus = {
        discipline = 0.05   #(previously: legitimacy = 1)
    }
 
    trigger = {
        tag = ETH
    }
    free = yes
 
    solomonid_claim = {
        prestige = 1
    }
    nagusa_negast = {
        heir_chance = 0.5
        legitimacy = 1   #New
    }
    hostile_borders = {
        defensiveness = 0.20
        war_exhaustion = -0.03   #New
    }
    diplomatic_demeanor = {
        diplomatic_reputation = 1
    }
    the_ark_of_the_covenant = {
        missionaries = 1
    }
    eth_expansionist_policy = {
        core_creation = -0.10
    }
    eth_reformed_armies = {
        army_tradition = 0.5   #(previously: infantry_power = 0.1)
    }
}

The estate privileges were adjusted too:
View attachment 766558
(Religious Culture - Previously: Local Unrest: +2, Local Culture Conversion Cost: -10%, Influence: 15%, Crownland Cost: 0)
(Religious Diplomats - Previously: Loyalty: 0%, Influence: 30%)
Note: we are considering denying access to "Religious Culture" for the Orthodox countries as they are very powerful on their own already. However, this is a decision we would like to make after gathering more feedback from QA and our community. Right now it is just an idea.

View attachment 766559
(Nobility Integration Policy - Previously: Was not removed if you have no more subjects left)
Note: "Nobility Integration Policy" gets immediately removed when you have no subjects left.

View attachment 766560
(Previously: Influence: 30%, Absolutism: -10)
View attachment 766561
(Build Shrines for Heirs - Previously: Influence: 30%)
(Build Embrace Singular Cult - Previously: Absolutism: -10)
(Flexible Cult - Previously: Influence: 10%, Absolutism: -5)

Note: swapping the Singular Cult comes now at a considerable cost too!

View attachment 766562

Next point is not quite about the new content, but we figured it is important we mention it. With the replacement of the -1 Tolerance to Heretics for Catholics, we observed that Catholicism dominates Europe, and the reformation gets eradicated after the Age of Reformation. The following image is one of the common occurrences (shoutout to AI Andalusia).
View attachment 766723
Because of that we decided to increase the speed of the Reformation by 50% and decreased the Morale Bonus of Bless Ruler from 10% to 5%.

View attachment 766724
View attachment 766725
Both images above are equally frequent now.

Finally a quick word: it appears that there is a big concern regarding power creep, not only about Origins, but about EU4 in general. We are working on dealing with this issue, trying to be a bit more creative and careful with the new content we will be releasing; keeping it interesting, challenging and rewarding at the same time.

Because of that, we realized that we need to tune down the strength of the national ideas of some formables. About the new mission trees, we are now trying to make them more interactive, giving the player different paths to follow, and making them more flavorful.
Hi ogele can you rework some of Adal or ajuuran setup nothing major but currently Adal has 33 dev in their entire nation

I made a suggestions thread that would be beneficial


Ethiopia is currently the strongest nation in east Africa when that shouldn’t be the case there should be a healthy rivalry between them and Adal , that would be more fun then Ethiopia steamrolling their neighbours

surely if ethiopia gets +5 discipline adal that defeated numerous ethiopian emperors and almost wiped them out should get atleast one good military idea

thanks
 
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_Bachus_

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Asymetrical mechanics, meaning AI or player doesn't use them the same, isn't a big problem for me. But that's being said from a person who give himself negative modifiers very often to make game more reasonable. So I understand people saying about power creep being a problem. Not sure if PDX is the right answer though to the problem. Like I said before, a player always can make the game more challenging. And I'm not sure we want some top-down PDX answer that nerfs everything and forces everybody to play the game in any given way. It would probably end up in bigger disaster than some other recent botch-up attempts to improve sth. PDX should focus at giving proper tools rather that creating exact rules that everybody should obey. Typical example Trade Nodes. You can't modify them to be more flexible in mods or in a base game to increase variability. This is the fault and prime responsibility of Paradox. Not if some tag has OP ideas which by the way you can modify very easily in files and simply don't play with them. So I'm against nerfing tools and mechanics that improve replayability and varaity of the game. If we see nerfing OP tags as an answer then what next? Making Ottomans an OPM because they're OP? Nonsense this game is build upon OP being available option and it's not a 4X game. What we need is different tools to make game more challenging even if we play as Ottomans. Not eliminating Ottomans. Give more tools instead to make game more challenging to people who want it. Scalling difficutly was proposed, something that stellaris already has. Give us ability to change what negative modifiers player has at the start but in some game setup window (similar like creating a custom nation). Most poeple won't eddit txt files and learn how events modifiers work to improve the game for them.
 
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ArtFart

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I mean, I am happy to see Spain stay Catholic as that's historically accurate but the Reformation looks too OP now. Like I would want it to be there but not insanely strong that it converts all of Europe within 10 years.

Also, could we have the likelihood of the reformation spawning in the HRE increased a tad. I've had a few games now playing in the HRE relying on the reformation spreading (playing as Prussia ie) and it spawns in Ireland and never spreads further than the coast of France. Not only is this very ahistorical (Ireland being a very Catholic nation even today) but it screws you over big time if you are relying on it.
 
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I will never understand Devs releasing content that only the player can use. See, this is the problem with the AI.
I don't know why you just can't delay releases until they are ready.
It is ready, the AI is not complex enough nor will it ever be complex enough to understand all of the benefits and negatives of taking reforms etc.

At the end of the day, it's the players experience that counts. As long as the AI puts up a fight and makes it entertaining, it's fine for me.
 
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