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I have to put my last word in before I am off, & since I am now no longer in control of any country I will try to make it less bias than usual.

France's loose of power was due to the simple fact HG is much better at war than me. I like fighting wars, with HG & KJ especially, since to me it is the whole point of the game. I could have told you before I fought that last war that I was going to loose. HG had a vast treasury from all those -inflation events, & is of course able to beat me when I have leader advantage, better sliders, & fire on him. Simple fact is I was bored & didn't want to waste my last session siting on my hands, sorry TG.

France is not a lost cause though, I pulled down the innovative slider a couple times with events & moved towards free trade to give them some colonist. My suggestion would be to fortify the northern border heavily to keep HG in long sieges & then try to muster up cavalry superiority to drive him off in those nice open planes (If my great leader would not have died of natural causes during the war I might have been able to pull off that plan myself, at one point HGs great general was down to 20k cavalry & he was mercing up to the north). Build up a colonial empire (I had wanted to move east, but with Venice owning India & Spain in South Africa all ready that doesn't seem to feasible) & do as HG said & wait for a better time for France unless you can get together a couple coalitions.

HG is right overall Russia is on parity with Austria for most purposes, & they have greater potential with their natural land rout to East Asia. A coalition of two of her four neighbors can almost always take her down (& that doesn't even count England coming across the channel). Spain too is very powerful, but yet again a coalition of any two of her neighbors (Venice & England count as well since they are both naval) stand a good chance of taking her down, especially once Venice gets TT 3 & England builds up her soon to come naval & colonial advantages. That does not even include the prospect of the Ottomans taking away all her nice vassals someday in the future & forcing her mp into a place of inferiority.

With all of that said, at present the real threat to the balance of power is a Habsburg coalition. Together they could carry this game away something quickly. Three of the six players, aside from those two, have the very real threat of being eaten alive if the Habsburgs wanted to end this now. Of course the time table for it is small & throughout the 1600s the threat will pass as others powers rise in relation to them creating a balance of power. Overall if the game makes it through the 1500s without Spain & Austria running away with it, things will become very interesting with a strong balance of power from the mid-1600s onwords.
 
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admiral drake

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HolisticGod said:
TG,

Actually, CF requested the war. I'd offered an NAP for the session to make way for the new dynasty, which he accepted, but he wound up with nobody else to fight and so we agreed to one last round. I'd happily return Calais, except that it's a port. ;) When and if the Emperor's navy has more solid anchorings, it shall be a gift to his Majesty.

Cas,

I made all the same arguments and only Dave agreed with me. Even so, I made John play it until he was dismantled by Camisa and on the verge of being hit by Drake. At that point, he had no desire to continue with it and we've had a hard enough time finding a new Sweden and a France. Drew may perm it now, but it'd have to take on Austria, Venice, Russia and Castile to come anywhere close to its usual dimensions. It's best off as an Oriental power, extending far into Persia and India, but we'll see if that works out.

As for Austria, if you look at the numbers it's currently the second strongest power, but there's not a lot of disparity. Russia and Brandenburg, along with Spain which is on top, are quite strong and capable of handling Austria one on one, provided they have the advantage of leaders. And France, if it focuses on the new world for a while, should be able to avenge its defeats under Henri IV.

So by the numbers, Austria's not nearly as bad as it looks. It's gotten Poland and Hungary in this game instead of North Germany and Italy, which is a vastly different proposition. And as for Constantinople, it was until recently under the rule of the Tzar, which would soon be much deadlier (i.e. Greek culture). I don't see that Austria taking it makes any difference to anything, especially as the Venetian inquisitors failed to restore it to the True Faith.

The only reason I took it was to increase naval support, which is still hugely inferior to Venice, Spain and England's.

for the record i never really planned to take greek and was considering to give thrace to drew depending what drew does

having austria from lowlands to constantinople to masovia is a masive austria
 

Mem de Sá

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Hi,

Will Drew get in as Perm? Im thinking... end time is a little to late for me and wednesday is not the best day... maybe Drew could get my Venice and then I could change to play ATE 2, wich starts and ends earlier for me, and also is in a better day.

Well, only thinking aloud for now... If Drew is not interested in playing OE and wants to get Venice... who know... :) I can became sort of a reliable sub for BoP.

Not that I want to leave my Venice with its beautifull indian empire, but time and day are to take in count...
 

the_genius

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Camisa 10 said:
....then I could change to play ATE 2, wich starts and ends earlier for me, and also is in a better day.
:cool: :D Another recruited :D :p
 

DSYoungEsq

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Camisa, it is easier to relate the starting time to GMT.

We start at 7:30 PM Eastern Time, which is currently -5 GMT, so the GMT start is 00:30. However, once the beginning of April arrives, the time zones in America will bump up an hour, making the start 23:30 GMT. At about the same time, any part of South America which is on Summer Time will revert back, causing a two-hour switch in starting time for such areas.

With the switch proposed, the start will become 01:00 GMT, until the second full week in April, at which time it will become 00:00 GMT. You will have to relate your own starting time to GMT, since I refuse to try and figure Brazil's system out. :p
 

HolisticGod

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Camisa,

Basically, we start a half hour and end a half hour after we normally do.

If this is unworkable for you, we can go ahead and keep the old time and put Drew in France, as TG's still at work at our usual time. Whatever's necesasry-I don't want to give up a perm for this change, or for any other reason, to be honest.

Get in touch with me.
 

Mem de Sá

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hum... I think it will be no problem with the new time, even half hour later if we start in time (and not more half hour later). It will be 11:00 here, till summertime ends and gets back to good 10:00. So its possible to continue to play.
Only session will have to end in time also.

So, one important question... will Drew take perm as OE... If so Venice is willing to negotiate with the ottomans the lands of egypt.
 

Count Drew

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Letter from the Sultan:

Overviewing the poor condition of the OE in my previous session and the mouth to mouth I've had to give it I'd like some of these edits done or at least considered for playability...

Infra and Trade to 3... LT to 10, NT to 4... A Shipyard. My BadBoy reduced to Zero. If my Capitol Event has been already lost, brought back if I can have Thrace agreed to be returned to the OE on good will. 100 Galleys and 25 Warships...



8000 to my treasury so I can build some manus or edit in several for me. OE is Pathetically Poor at this point and even with the upgrades to technology will lag behind vastly in comparison with any other nation... I'm not a land power so these are no threat to any nations.


Also I would like to state to other nations if You want a Playable nation in the Seat of Power of the Sultan, someone who will contribute to the Balance and Intrigue of the Region that I am in rather than just another European Market to make Nations uberrich and overloaded with Manpower a gentle Foreign Policy towards the OE.

as far as Sliders... Most of you have had the opportunity to adjust them the way you wish this is the way I'd like mine moved........

fully pluto, fully mercantile, leave my landslider as it is... Fully Quality, Full Free Subjects... Closer to Central and Inno...Plus Stab 3

Tell me what you think of these edits and I'll see you guys soon ;)
 

Count Drew

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Camisa 10 said:
hum... I think it will be no problem with the new time, even half hour later if we start in time (and not more half hour later). It will be 11:00 here, till summertime ends and gets back to good 10:00. So its possible to continue to play.
Only session will have to end in time also.

So, one important question... will Drew take perm as OE... If so Venice is willing to negotiate with the ottomans the lands of egypt.

I would really appreciate negotiations on these regions, also I am interested in a later start myself... 7:30 is quite early
 

HolisticGod

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Drew,

No on the tech boosts. Consider that nobody has 3-3 in infra and trade (Austria, for example, has 3-1 and Muscowy 2-1). I'll kick LT up to 9, though.

No on the cash and no on the ships. What I will do is give the OE 1K and cut its BB, so it has the opportunity to expand.

Mostly, what I need are requests for longterm edits. Especially a recalibration of cultures and shields-moving them from the Balkans, for example, to Persia and replacing Greek and Slavonic with Persian. I can't give you boosts that will make it difficult for your neighbors (Muscowy and to a lesser degree Spain and Venice) to hold their territories right off the bat, rather than after you've expanded a bit.

If you want to play for a normal OE instead of an Oriental OE (which would be wealthier...), that's fine. But I don't know how much of a chance you have of gaining the Aegean basin and Constantinople. So it might be better to give Ankarra to the Thracian COT (which has never formed) or something of that nature.
 

unmerged(1631)

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Count Drew said:
I would really appreciate negotiations on these regions, also I am interested in a later start myself... 7:30 is quite early

Hey Drew and Genius. Can you post your icq's again or your icq name? Genius the number you posted, I can't get icq to find you.
 

Count Drew

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Austria, France and Prussia all have INFRA 3... The other nations makeup for the lack of Infra in their Increased Trade Tech, some well pushing Trade TECH 3 although granted right now they only have Trade Tech 2 they are likely exploiting The Entire Globe with MASSIVE Maps. Considering I'm Orthodox, It'll be a LONG stretch for me to get competitive Trade or INFRA and stay competitive in Land Tech and the fact that my lack of COTs and manus if you do not allow me some manus<I make half of the poorest nation in Europe and this will not change for a good 100 years after all my leaders are dead>

I will likely be a Gimp to any nation I can find considering also that all my Wealthiest Land is posssed my Castile, Venice and Austria...even some by Russia all whom I cannot compete with... Now if you wish to give OE the Opportunity to become a Massive Mongoloid Long Term advesary and some Cores both in Europe<say like a late age Golden Horde> I'd think this a CONTRIBUTION to your playability in this game.

It would have to be a Large Portion of India not just Persia that OE Absorbs... Plus Rights to Thrace and North Africa... This way the West will be more likely to Align against me so I cannot become too powerful when I attempt to move in on their Real-Estate.....

All Territories in Turkey and Regional Empire<that means through Persia and Portions of India, Arabia, MidEast> Converted to State Religion of Shi'ite<an Extremist Turkish Empire> Thrace CoT moved to Ankara<that will work fine> Any leaders I might lose due to events and any bad events due to my disposition possibly edited out to Cores and Conflicts I will not be part of... That should be simple if there 1 or 2......

I'd like Cores on All of Persia, Persian Culture, Baluchi Culture, Mongol Culture, Afgan Culture, Cores on all of Eastern India. Dravidian Culture, Hindi Culture, Gujarati Culture, Marathi Culture, I'll exclude Eastern Indian Culture beyond Marathi... Otherwise Conversion of these regions will be worthless and impossible to hold... This will make me a Mongol Empire of the South, with not much interest but to raid and protect my hinterland... Much like a Russia


However, My Nation is still extremely Poor. The Real Estate I'm conquesting is not all that wealthy... Without 3 or 4 CoTs in my Path I will lag greatly behind. So I would like for Egypt and North Africa to remain a Contested Area of Faith for Allah........Thrace and small portions of the Balkans to Remain an area contested... As well as areas of Russia

This will continue to create havoc and wars between me and Foreign Powers and not isolate me....... More than 1000 ducats !!! I cannot sneeze witht that amount... That won't even finance but 1 Manfactory.

If you want a Power to hold Foreign PsychoTraders at bay in the Middle of the World I think it wise plus add to the intrigue of the Game... Otherwise OE would be better off set as a Naval Power which I'm also willing to embark upon if Naval Leaders, explorers, Latin Tech and other things are granted plus some maps to get footholds an proper Slider arrangements...

All up to you ;) For the fun of the game at least HG otherwise quite boring.. Austria already is the size of what the OE should be.. She is the OE of Europe so we don't really need another One. And Russia will be her only contender with French-Castilian contender only, either way the OE is openminded to which ever way conquest takes her but before it gets any later in the game I feel some major edits are required. Suleyman Kanuni won't be alive much longer and he serves no real purpose with my income and Manpower...









HolisticGod said:
Drew,

No on the tech boosts. Consider that nobody has 3-3 in infra and trade (Austria, for example, has 3-1 and Muscowy 2-1). I'll kick LT up to 9, though.

No on the cash and no on the ships. What I will do is give the OE 1K and cut its BB, so it has the opportunity to expand.

Mostly, what I need are requests for longterm edits. Especially a recalibration of cultures and shields-moving them from the Balkans, for example, to Persia and replacing Greek and Slavonic with Persian. I can't give you boosts that will make it difficult for your neighbors (Muscowy and to a lesser degree Spain and Venice) to hold their territories right off the bat, rather than after you've expanded a bit.

If you want to play for a normal OE instead of an Oriental OE (which would be wealthier...), that's fine. But I don't know how much of a chance you have of gaining the Aegean basin and Constantinople. So it might be better to give Ankarra to the Thracian COT (which has never formed) or something of that nature.
 

Mem de Sá

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A lot of edits will be needed... but...
I really think all of those edits are a little to much... especially the cultures in india subcontinent... that will end up with all my effort to get indian cots...

Also the boosts in Infra and Trade... Venice is struggling to get trade 3 or infra 3, and will take some time to it wet. It has no manus also, as most of the other nations.

But I didnt look at the save yet, so I will give a look later. Now going to the pool!! :)
 

HolisticGod

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Drew,

What Camisa said.

The OE is actually not all that far behind the tech levels of the majors. I'm at infra three and trade one. Drake is at infra two and trade one. Etc. I'm certainly not boosting you above everybody else.

As far as the Indian cultures, that's a lot more than is fair. Mongol, Persian and Afghani are arguable, but the rest are out of bounds. You'll also have to give up one or two cultures to get them, especially if you want to simultaneously try for North African-the Aegean/Balkans-Kurdistan in addition to Persia and India, which I think would be good for the game but of course giving you a cultural territory three times that of a normal OE is not acceptable.

The OE is a challenge. There's no doubt about it. And I'm willing to make some edits to strengthen it. But that challenge has to be played-I'm not simply going to remove it for you by vaulting you ahead of everyone else's econ techs, giving you Latin, giving you 8K and giving you cores and cultures over all of Persia and Central Asia and most of India.
 

Count Drew

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Well, lets look at the facts. I make 50 ducats per month. I will not be able to take more than 2 CoTs without causing permanent conflict with Venice. Venice, Austria and Russia have already carved up 90% of my most highest income provinces!

Orthodox Tech it'll take me another 5 years longer than anyone else with half their income<actually less>, another 5 years on top of that... That means when you all hit Trade 3, I'll be on 2. When you all hit Infra 3 I'll be on 2 and I'll still have LT 10 and you'll have 12...

That means an impotent OE... I have no Manus besides a CC... If that is the case within the next 50 years my Main Leader File does it's also best to let the OE die also ;)

Some of the edits I purposed allow for what missing 150 years would've given me.. I asked for Perm you all offered me to sub in France.......so I would've but couldn't be perm so you are making me suffer for no reason... I cannot give mouth to mouth to OE without real help if selfishness prevails then play on without me... Venice will eat OE and Austria will be your OE... that is the way it stands ;) there will be no BackDoor competitor to the Great Austrian Empire aside from Russia and no competitor to Russia and no competitor to MidEast CoTs, Egyptian, Thrace and Mascate and other locations


HolisticGod said:
Drew,

What Camisa said.

The OE is actually not all that far behind the tech levels of the majors. I'm at infra three and trade one. Drake is at infra two and trade one. Etc. I'm certainly not boosting you above everybody else.

As far as the Indian cultures, that's a lot more than is fair. Mongol, Persian and Afghani are arguable, but the rest are out of bounds. You'll also have to give up one or two cultures to get them, especially if you want to simultaneously try for North African-the Aegean/Balkans-Kurdistan in addition to Persia and India, which I think would be good for the game but of course giving you a cultural territory three times that of a normal OE is not acceptable.

The OE is a challenge. There's no doubt about it. And I'm willing to make some edits to strengthen it. But that challenge has to be played-I'm not simply going to remove it for you by vaulting you ahead of everyone else's econ techs, giving you Latin, giving you 8K and giving you cores and cultures over all of Persia and Central Asia and most of India.
 

Mem de Sá

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* I propose one of the trade techs be increased to 3 at OE choice, that seems very fair, as probably it would have one of those at 3 if human played.
* Give a COT in Ankara - if its the case in substitution to Constantinople CoT.
* Give a shipyard in Ankara to OE.
*and other necessary edits - as cultures and money - that I dont know what i could propose now, hehe

* I see five COTs OE can get at a medium time... Alexandria, the one in Arabia, the one in North Africa Somalia, Samarkand and Ganges - one spanish, two Venetians and two Russians.
 
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admiral drake

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if ottos get trade 3 i think russia should get trade 2 atleast without loosing investments in trade
if ottos get infra 3 russia should get infra 3to

agree with cot to ankara
(cap+cot should be moved to thrace if he ever conquers it
agree with shipyard

if ottos get latin russia should get same
-ottos should get persian-berber-nubian and few other cultures minor cultures don't give him cultures in india or crap like uzbek
-if you don't overdo cultures like i proposed above it should also get cores on persia perhaps northwest africa to
-if ottos get cores on crimea russia should to
-if ottos get cores on provs like samarkand or north of persia russia should get some to there

-russia+ottos both should get mongol culture
-gold
-bb reduction
-inflation reduction only if he got more inflation then the other players (doubtful)