Balance of game mechanics in 2.0.1 - what are YOUR concerns?

[Todie]

2.0.1 is nice. Nice enough that many players are discovering or rediscovering the game. There are layers of depth to discover and engage with - or so it appears.

However, I know im not alone as an experienced player, in being able to look through and past many aspects of how the game works now, and disregard many of the gameplay choices presented as more or less “false”... it seems, even some newbies are succeeding with ambitious expansionism in their very first play-throughs.

My question to you all:
In your personal opinion - what is the most pressing concern regarding mechanical game balance in the 2.0.1 patch ? Why?

Proposed thread format: one post = one separate concern. Use agree / disagree / upvote to highlight pressing concerns!
(This is not a suggestion thread - complex suggestions can be neat, but elsewhere?)

Try to keep comments / discussion of others raised concerns separate from posts with your own concerns.

Thank you for your contribution!

 

[Kahldris]

It will not come as a surprise that I am concerned about AE. Why my POPs should be affected by the nation conquering spree? I understand war exhaustion but internal problems for AE? It feels more like an artificial stop for a expansionist player. This could be done much better without fustrating the gameplay. On the contrary, enhancing it, making it more exciting for the player.

Interesting thought what could you do to make it more exciting and interesting?

 

[Decius]

Wonders are Incredibly Overpowered when compared to the 7 Wonders of the World.

Now, I thought this might be something that would be universally agreed upon, but I have seen people say they prefer it this way or that it's perfectly fine for it to be this way... but I think it is absolutely ridiculous, and utterly baffling, that the Wonders that you can construct can give bonus' that are so, so, so objectively much more powerful than the 7 wonders of the world.

Take any of the wonders of the world in game right now, you can both copy their bonus' onto some crappy little wooden mausoleum, and add extra bonus' ontop of those, and just through the advent of time, that trashy little wooden hut can give you modifiers that make the pyramids of giza look like a waste of stone (which, if you dont care much for vassal play, they objectively are)

Proposed Solution: buff the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World. Let them have a 5th prestige level that the constructable wonders cannot attain, and give them 3 bonus' instead of just 1, just like all the wonders you can create get. Or make our own constructed wonders be limited to only a single selectable bonus.

Don't want to discuss and derail this thread, just one proposal/addition: Maybe limit the max prestige lvl or the amount of bonuses of a custom wonder, if the starting prestige lvl of that wonder is very low (e.g. if it is just made out of wood and stone instead of more valuable ressources -> only more valuable ressources lead to max prestige lvl over time). As long as only the famous 7 Wonders of the World gets buffed somehow, I'm fine with it, but not the other ones (but you only mentioned the 7, so I'm not disagreeing with you about that). And now I promise I will no longer post about wonders here in this thread!

 

[Lord Lambert]

Don't want to discuss and derail this thread, just one proposal/addition: Maybe limit the max prestige lvl or the amount of bonuses of a custom wonder, if the starting prestige lvl of that wonder is very low (e.g. if it is just made out of wood and stone instead of more valuable ressources -> only more valuable ressources lead to max prestige lvl). As long as only the famous 7 Wonders of the World gets buffed somehow, I'm fine with it, but not the other ones (but you only mentioned the 7, so I'm not disagreeing with you about that). And now I promise I will no longer post about wonders here in this thread!

Either of those solutions would be a step in the right direction for sure. I like the limit based on material, thats a good plan. I would argue that the materials cost is far too easy to get right now, though... Like, yeah a golden pyramid would be massively more prestigeous but all you need is the cash and 1 single import of that material (and lets be honest, if you've got 5k to blow on a wooden mausoleum, you probably can scrape together 12k for a golden pyramid, by the time you have the disposable for 5k, it doesnt take much to save for 12k)

If we get the rumoured and highly sought after trade rework for 2.1, and it includes stockpiles of various tradegoods, then this would be a system I would throw my weight behind 100%. If it took you saving up your stockpile of a rare resource to get to this prestige level that would be delightful

 

[Kahldris]

"Currency" income balance:

For me manpower and to some extent money income in the late game are still to high. Early and mid game is fine.

- Money income imo just needs to have several late bonuses removed from the invention trees - replace them with something else (like some of the +10% trade income ones and the tax bonuses). I think these nerfs to the bonuses would do the job, if they get replaced to some extent (not all). I'm just suggesting this, because it would be the easy fix, instead of changing something more complex around money income.

- Manpower in the late game is really too much, I think there is more rebalancing required to solve that - maybe even include navies to manpower (ship crew) alongside other manpower balance changes.

- Political Influence income is mostly fine - I sometimes would like to have more, but that is a good sign, that the balance is right.

- Military Experience gain for military traditions is fine with the exception of the here already mentioned exploit.

So from the four currencies, money income to some extent and especially manpower is in the late game too much and an issue. PI is fine, military experience gain is fine, but please fix the exploits.


Good points from others here in the thread! Imo a really good collection of balance issues, which should get adressed by the devs to make this game perfect

I've been talking about manpower forever and ya its still not in a great place.
Also money it seems that trade is now waaaaay better then tax. Like why would you go tax inventions over trade? Am I missing something there?
I need to play more and the game is at the best spot (and most interesting to play) it's ever been for sure. However the balance of things is interesting.

 

[Vernichtere]

UI is the main concern. Need ways to find things and people faster and sort them. To jump to the province mentioned into the event, To have probable more mirrors open. The rest is more about additional wishes like pops actually consuming trade goods.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Buildings could use more depth and utility- some sort of tiered system a la total war?
I'd love to be able to really customize cities or at least metropolises in a mini Civ fashion. Make individual cities and provinces more unique.

 

[Undead Martyr]

I've been talking about manpower forever and ya its still not in a great place.
Also money it seems that trade is now waaaaay better then tax. Like why would you go tax inventions over trade? Am I missing something there?
I need to play more and the game is at the best spot (and most interesting to play) it's ever been for sure. However the balance of things is interesting.

Maybe manpower could be used instead of PI to found cities?

 

[Decius]

Either of those solutions would be a step in the right direction for sure. I like the limit based on material, thats a good plan. I would argue that the materials cost is far too easy to get right now, though... Like, yeah a golden pyramid would be massively more prestigeous but all you need is the cash and 1 single import of that material (and lets be honest, if you've got 5k to blow on a wooden mausoleum, you probably can scrape together 12k for a golden pyramid, by the time you have the disposable for 5k, it doesnt take much to save for 12k)

If we get the rumoured and highly sought after trade rework for 2.1, and it includes stockpiles of various tradegoods, then this would be a system I would throw my weight behind 100%. If it took you saving up your stockpile of a rare resource to get to this prestige level that would be delightful

Only thing I don't like about your cost suggestion is, that it wouldn't work with my money income balance adjustments for the late game I made here in this thread. Imo late game money income needs a reduction by replacing some trade income and maybe even some tax income bonus inventions. It would require a different rebalancing of wonder costs.

 

[Lord Lambert]

Only thing I don't like about your cost suggestion is, that it wouldn't work with my money income balance adjustments for the late game I made here in this thread. Imo late game money income needs a reduction by replacing some trade income and maybe even some tax income bonus inventions. It would require a different rebalancing of wonder costs.

Preface: I know the latest view on the Pyramids of Giza is that they were not built by slaves

But imagine if the cost for your new wonder was - a certain amount of a good like marble. Say a pyramid cost you 10,000 units of marble... that would be a steep hill to climb... but in terms of money, you'd pay a certain amount for engineers and such, and a great amount of tyranny if you want to force the population to work on your project. Not in terms of making slaves do the construction, but more like modern wage slavery. Give people money to pay them, but give them no other choice. Accept this job to build my vanity project or starve, basically.
Add to that a few pop losses as people die in the construction effort. Could be doable

 

[Mayor_S]

- The monarchy Law for assimilation (+0.25) started as 3.00 and then 0.5 and now at 0.25, i think that they nerfed it too much
- Manpower should get more uses and perhaps sources of decrease to balance it in late game
- Northern European tribes have 1-2 pops per province, resulting in extreme depopulation with multiple wars, change that, so that wars dont depopulate a provice or city if it has only 1 pop
- change ALL missions trees in early game, where you need to colonize 5-7-8 provinces... who even thought that it was remotely achievable (in a timely manner)?

 

[Bovrick]

"Currency" income balance:

For me manpower and to some extent money income in the late game are still to high. Early and mid game is fine.

- Money income imo just needs to have several late bonuses removed from the invention trees - replace them with something else (like some of the +10% trade income ones and the tax bonuses). I think these nerfs to the bonuses would do the job, if they get replaced to some extent (not all). I'm just suggesting this, because it would be the easy fix, instead of changing something more complex around money income.

- Manpower in the late game is really too much, I think there is more rebalancing required to solve that - maybe even include navies to manpower (ship crew) alongside other manpower balance changes.

- Political Influence income is mostly fine - I sometimes would like to have more, but that is a good sign, that the balance is right.

- Military Experience gain for military traditions is fine with the exception of the here already mentioned exploit.

So from the four currencies, money income to some extent and especially manpower is in the late game too much and an issue. PI is fine, military experience gain is fine, but please fix the exploits.


Good points from others here in the thread! Imo a really good collection of balance issues, which should get adressed by the devs to make this game perfect

Quick thought for Manpower: we now have a variable renew time for Levies based on manpower losses; would it be worthwhile keeping the manpower losses as if levied until the levy can be raised again.
Doesn't fix the Legion issue, but maybe they should have an ongoing Manpower cost anyway.

 

[Herennius]

Why the wait several months later part? Surely you can disband after a month?

You can, but there is either minimum of raised time needed or some other factor. I haven't figured out what it is, but sometimes something prevents me from reaping that starting exp for cheap - and I never suceeded with instant disbanding or waiting just until month is over. For me the situation is that if you get exp converted, it is too far much with a foundry and other starting boosters involved - it's just that it doesn't trigger always in my game.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Interesting thought what could you do to make it more exciting and interesting?

AE mainly gives you a hit on stability and diplomacy. Your options to counter AE are:

• Unlock some inventions on the Oratory left Tree to lower its impact
• Offset the negative stability by using PI with Divine Sacrifice
• Unlock inventions on the Oratory right Tree to increase your diplomacy skills.
• (*)

But then you are playing the modifiers game, instead of playing the game you are playing with modifiers: -0,25 stability + 0,20 stability = -0,05 stability and you keep playing.

I would like to have real consequences that I can fight with real actions in the Game World not in a paper with wine stains.

I am not asking anything new, from the Imperator wiki:

Aggressive Expansion (AE) [...] encouraging other states to form alliances or defensive leagues against the expanding country.

If a player has high AE, the game should promote these alliances and specially, attack him. Even if they are in disadvantage. Many players will like the challenge (me included) and will feel real consequences for their actions. If the player looses an AE triggered war, the AE will be lowered. If the player wins the war, AE remains the same, but at least the player will have some fun!

(*) You could say that there are other real actions to counter AE like:

• Import happiness goods
• Integrate cultures to boost POP happiness
• Invest in forts to quell unrest
• Invest in improve relations with your neighbors

But I will tell you that those were actions that I was already undertaking without AE.

 

[Acoasma]

i believe the strength of the different unit types should be looked into.

As it stand specifically LI, aswell as other lighter unit types are way too weak imo. it makes sense for open field battles that LI gets demolished by HI, however for forest or mountains they should get significant bonuses to make up for it and give them a fighting chance.

I think with the new levies system and the cultural different layout, this has become a greater concern in terms of balance

 

[maxk94]

1.That levies of tribal govenorships splitted up for chiefs is bad, especially if the new region is small. Too many small armies made tactics and deployment meaningless.
Esp. because sometimes armies do not arrive together even they are bound.

2. Manpower is not a real issue, thats the main difference to pre-2.0 in terms of conquering.

 

[Vernichtere]

1.That levies of tribal govenorships splitted up for chiefs is bad, especially if the new region is small. Too many small armies made tactics and deployment meaningless.
Esp. because sometimes armies do not arrive together even they are bound.

2. Manpower is not a real issue, thats the main difference to pre-2.0 in terms of conquering.

Tribals need a rework anyways. Think it will be part of a new patch in combination with a DLC for some cultures there.

 

[Chiron]

Mucking about with republican nations couple of thing stands out, especially for minor nations, it can be hard to drop tyranny and increase council support which leads to s feedback loop of holy shit I can't do anything.

Friendships are also very expensive, both within and without kingdoms. Meanwhile the absolute lack of principles means everyone is open for bribes. More interaction or plot hooks within kingdoms would be useful. Especially for same faction members or families. Also not everyone should be purchasable.

Another is the forts expenses and the amount of land that can be just gobbled right up in wars without them. Forts also need to have more effect on attrition and grinding the enemy war machine down.

Lastly raising levies is a little annoying in large kingdoms like Carthage thanks to the barbarian mechanics, these bad boys seem to show up at random, cost a fortune to pay off and take an age to march back and forwards to take out.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

Large AIs being stingy with forts is a problem, I'm not saying that every single province should have a fort but the AI should put some major consideration at the very least into fortifying the provinces which directly border a neighbour especially if those provinces have wealthy cities in.

On a related note I feel that forts are overpriced and now that there's a soft cap on how many forts you can put in a small area I'd suggest that they could be made cheaper both in build cost and maintenance.

This is what ended my playthrough.

AI nations with two or more provinces are comically weak because they lack proper fort defence.
Once you get large enough to exploit this, all challenge vanishes from the game.

Another major concern for me is the stability cheating that prevents large revolts in AI nations.
This cheating undermines all the mechanisms for breaking up big blobs through espionage, devolving the game into nothing but a 'map painting through war' simulator.

There's also the various exploits, and braindead AI, but I consider those to be bugs rather than issues of poor balance / bad design.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Presently players are able to release a single territory as a client state, file 1 claim, use the claim to trigger a large defensive league, stomp the tech 0 tribals, then avoid taking any AE what-so-ever when the client state takes a vast swath of land. Integrate. Rinse/repeat. I think we might want to look @ giving the overlord 1/4 of whatever AE the client state takes or some other appropriate %.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

Presently players are able to release a single territory as a client state, file 1 claim, use the claim to trigger a large defensive league, stomp the tech 0 tribals, then avoid taking any AE what-so-ever when the client state takes a vast swath of land. Integrate. Rinse/repeat. I think we might want to look @ giving the overlord 1/4 of whatever AE the client state takes or some other appropriate %.

Integration should have a cost.