Balance issues

[Medicine Man]

1. Since this is aberration, historical correctness is really far from the best. Just because syrians managed to live there for 1000+ years of arab control doesn't mean they did in Aberration.

Actually Kaigon, the Aberration has *more* reason for the region to be something other than arabic, not less.

The Empire first lost Syria during the 6th century, to the Sassanid Empire, but reclaimed it during the 7th century and then prompty lost it to the arab invaders. The Empire reclaimed large parts of Syria once again during the Macedonian dynasty (9th century) and held onto it all until the disasterous Battle of Manzikert (1071).

During the 12th century, catholic crusaders re-captured large chunks of Syria and, in Aberration, they have held onto them until 1419. If you consider that the Sassanid persians were neither arabic nor islamic, the muslim world (in Abe) has owned the region for about 3 centures, while the christians have owned it for almost 7 centuries.

2. Making Syria syrian is an increase of syrian provinces by 100%. Making Aleppo turkish is an increase of 1/6 (~16,7%)

Which means what? By the same logic I could make all of Poland germanic culture because there are already a huge pile of german provinces in the game.

3. I've never found the Caliphate to be the behemut you're talking about. But don't let me stop you from changing something I can't see. (Which also means that I don't think they should be dropped to muslim tech).

I can understand why you would be resistant to the idea, Kaigon, particularly if this proposed change is looking like an effort to hurt a country you worked on. Allow me to uncouple this idea from the whole 'nerf the Caliphate' debate. While I do believe that the Caliphate needs to be given some real obstacles to their power, what I am proposing here is not to that end, at least not directly.

What I'm proposing will not even hurt the Caliphate, just give them some competition. If the Caliphate is allowed to claim syrian culture via event (which I feel they should), then they will be marginally *better* off than they are currently, not having to jump through the hoops of getting turkish culture in order to make full use of Aleppo.

That and the Caliphate is still far more likely to conquer the area than the Byzantium, just due to the starting positions.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

The Auxilia were a unit used by the Western Roman Empire, so I probably screwed up my terminology. I'm not sure what the Eastern Empire equivalent was, or if there event was one. Near the end of the western empire, the auxilia were actually better troops than the legions, being composed of foreign cavalry units. While the legions were used primarly to garrison the frontiers of the empire, the auxilia were used to reinforce hotspots and fill the ranks of expeditionary forces.

Well, I guess some more byzantine terminology would be neater? Maybe have an event about incorporating Renaissance warfare tactics (pikemen formations and gunpowder)? That would be in line with the domestic booster Renaissance Arrives in Byzantium as well.

What I had in mind was the usage of Turkish Sipahi as mercenary troops. The practice of using foreign soldiers as part of their military was a long standing tradition of the empire: rus, urgic and breton mercenaries filled the Emperor's Varangian Guard, and the Empire's cavalry units were staffed by large numbers of Alan, Khwarazim, and Armenian horsemen. I was thinking along the same lines for the Turks.

Well, in that case, I suggest that the event would instead have two options, either incorporate or not. Incorporation would give some MP bonuses in turkish areas, increase offensive by one and lower quality by one. Then not incorporating would just give +1 stab or something.

Also a good idea. It depends on whether we wish to reward the Byzantium in general, or reward them for expanding eastward. Perhaps a combination of the two? Give them some random conversions if they expand eastward?

Well, I guess they point in the event is to reward expansion to the east, so maybe the combination would be best.

Sure, we could give them shields on the area. We could do the same for the Kaliphate, if they don't have the shields already. As I noted above, what I would really like to do is make all of the area syrian from the outset and turn it into a coveted prize for all in the region.

Well, I guess that needs to be pondered generally, as it has already been.

 

[unmerged(19936)]

Seconded, although Caliphate should have to pay up a notable amount to get syrian, since they already have enough going for them (I'd say they'd have to pay a lot, but since they are being downgraded to moslem tech I can live with less )

Speaking of a lot going for them...

This game was played mostly with 1.00. I'm really quite frightened of the Kaliphate and I'm Ireland!

 

[Medicine Man]

I've posted a Byzantium and Caliphate version of the proposed Patriarch of Antioch event. They can be seen in the following thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3428237#post3428237

I'm just waiting to see if we can come to an agreement about syrian culture in the Levant.

 

[unmerged(5974)]

In my game as Granada, the Caliphate took the option of going shiite. They sort of went downhill from there, losing their vassals and even territory to KoJ, Egypt and Delhi. I checked that this was option 'D' in the event-files, - what if it were made to be a 'B' event?

Was quite fun though - started a jihad and force-converted them back to the right path

 

[Avernite]

All choices except A get the same chance, provided you keep the same amount of picks. In an event with only two options, B has indeed a bigger chance than D gets in a 4-choice event, but in that 4-choice event option B will also have that lower chance.

At least, that's how it used to be

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Hmm, considering how to make attacking turks more lucrative for Byzantium... How about, if attacking turks would not automatically mean war with Kaliphate and it's hordes? Currently, as turks are automatically allied with each other, so going at them usually means going against all of them and to make thing more fun, taking control of any of their capitals in the war means that Caliphate dows you most of the time. So as a proposal, could that Help our Northern Brothers event instead just give Caliphate CB against Byzantium?

 

[TheArchduke]

Maybe break up the turkish alliance in two small alliances instead of a big one and locking the Caliphate in an alliance with a minor in the region?

 

[Medicine Man]

I think that Byakhaim is referring to a Caliphate event that automatically gives the Caliph turkish culture and puts them at war with the Byzantium if the Empire is beating up on the turks. Byak believes that the Caliph should be given the opportunity to intervene, rather than being forced to -- an assessment I agree with.

 

[TheArchduke]

Sounds like a job for the nerfman.

 

[Medicine Man]

Sounds like a job for the nerfman.

Damn, that was a fast reply. Did we crosspost? Ahh, nevermind. Who is the nerfman anyhow?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Yep, you guessed right MM.

 

[Kaigon]

I'm happy for the Caliphate as long as they can get turkish culture...

 

[Nikolai II]

I'm happy for the Caliphate as long as they can get turkish culture...

So you don't feel it is a wee bit overpowered with easily accessible arabic, kurdish, turkish and persian cultures? (And orthodox tech as well..)

Well.. maybe it is balanced if it is supposed to be used as an AI nation until Europe is 'blobbified' and still be viable for defending RoTW once it becomes open..

 

[TheArchduke]

Damn, that was a fast reply. Did we crosspost? Ahh, nevermind. Who is the nerfman anyhow?

For most of the leaders me, for the granadian, italian leaders you if you want.

 

[Kaigon]

So you don't feel it is a wee bit overpowered with easily accessible arabic, kurdish, turkish and persian cultures? (And orthodox tech as well..)

Well.. maybe it is balanced if it is supposed to be used as an AI nation until Europe is 'blobbified' and still be viable for defending RoTW once it becomes open..

As it is now, the Caliphate can never have both persian culture AND orthodox tech. We could of course let turkish make them muslim tech too though.

 

[Medicine Man]

I would rather just make the Caliphate muslim tech but give them access to all of the cultures. If they are able to capitalize on that advantage, as well as an unmatched defensive position, then I think they would be able to overcome their tech disadvantage (and then some).

Additional: I think the main problem with the turkish culture event for the Caliphate is that it can happen too early and too easily, essentially pre-empting Byzantine involvement in a region that is traditionally more in their sphere than the Caliph's. That and the fact the Caliphate response forces a war...

I think that the Caliphate definately should get turkish culture and shields in that area -- essentially exposing the region to conflict -- for the same reasons that I want syrian culture expanded in the levant.

Perhaps a better trigger for the Caliphate event would be along the following lines:

trigger = {
OR = {
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 476 data = sunni } } # Angora
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 482 data = sunni } } # Konya
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 1611 data = sunni } } # Taurus
}
religion = sunni
}

The WAR command should also be remove and replaced with a casusbelli of some suitable time period.

 

[TheArchduke]

Yep, war commands I dislike heavily.

 

[Nikolai II]

I would rather just make the Caliphate muslim tech but give them access to all of the cultures. If they are able to capitalize on that advantage, as well as an unmatched defensive position, then I think they would be able to overcome their tech disadvantage (and then some).

Additional: I think the main problem with the turkish culture event for the Caliphate is that it can happen too early and too easily, essentially pre-empting Byzantine involvement in a region that is traditionally more in their sphere than the Caliph's. That and the fact the Caliphate response forces a war...

I think that the Caliphate definately should get turkish culture and shields in that area -- essentially exposing the region to conflict -- for the same reasons that I want syrian culture expanded in the levant.

Perhaps a better trigger for the Caliphate event would be along the following lines:

trigger = {
OR = {
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 476 data = sunni } } # Angora
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 482 data = sunni } } # Konya
NOT = { provincereligion = { province = 1611 data = sunni } } # Taurus
}
religion = sunni
}

The WAR command should also be remove and replaced with a casusbelli of some suitable time period.

Hmm..

Sounds good - Caliphate moslem techgroup, begins with two cultures, but can get two more.. does BYZ have an event converting any of Angora, Konya or Taurus? Else I'd add either like to see such an event, or more provinces where conversion would trigger Caliphate action..

Actually I'd prefer if one got either turkish shields or culture, getting the other a bit later (maybe after getting some provinces?), and at a small cost..

 

[Medicine Man]

There is a Byzantium event that will give two random conversions around 1510-20 if they own certain Turkish parts of Asia Minor, so that may fulfill the requirements. It shouldn't matter though, as I find that the AI does conversions quite well even without the proper culture.

If I'm reading them correctly, it looks like the Caliphate only gets the core shields *after* he conquers the provinces -- so your wish is already granted Nikolai. Any intervention event would likely only give the turkish culture to the Caliphate, with CB shields coming after successful military action.